Folks, we are going to run the BJCP Tasting Course as a lot of people have expressed an interest.
This Course consists of about 6 or 7 style classes, a seibel off-flavor class, a Mock BJCP Tasting exam and a BJCP tasting exam, you will get plenty of reference material via the student google share to assist your knowledge for the classes.
The Classes will run Saturday mornings, starting around 11:30 am finishing at 13:30 (times to be confirmed with venue) - the last venue was the Brew Dock (near Busaras)
The rough format of each class is a small talk introducing the style, scoring some beers and talking through others, we are going to focus on student participation and feedback, so expect to be asked a lot of questions !
We will start a Doodle to determine the most popular dates for the classes, initially the instructors will whittle it down to about 10 and then the students pick their favorite dates and we further eliminate another 2 or 3 (depending on numbers)
You DONT have to attend every single class - its ok to miss some - you only pay for what you commit to go to.
Once the doodle is complete, we know our schedule, you will then be sent a link to a google sheet - you mark in the classes and pay the club bjcp paypal for those classes, its as simple as that.
We need to have 12-15 people in each class to make it feasible. Expect the class cost to be 15 euro. Its run as 'not for profit' so basically your paying for the beer that needs to be brought in.
At the end of the course, there is a mock exam and a proper BJCP tasting exam, where you can get certified with BJCP to judge beer competitions.
You dont have to do the exam, the exam and mock exam are charged separately and require an online pre-exam
The rough timelines (to give you a ball park)
classes run end aug / sept / oct /start nov - mock exam nov/early dec and real exam probably January.
I need to square it off with the BJCP and get proctors flown in for the exam - so that's really up in the air at the moment.
So I'm starting the doodle for the instructors this evening and after a couple of days, we will post a fresh student doodle here.
Please feel free to add you name to the interest list below, if all this interests you.
oh - if you want to help out - please send me a PM, we are ok for instructors but might need assistance with the exams and off-flavour
Looking forward to it !!
James
Interest list .. Robbed from other thread !
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
Do you know if there'll be a possibility of sitting the the exam only next year?
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
Quote from: Johnnycheech on April 17, 2018, 06:31:21 AM
Do you know if there'll be a possibility of sitting the the exam only next year?
Yea - there is no problem if you just want to sit the exam - its done separately, the course students get priority on seats but usually that isnt a problem
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
I don't suppose there will be a section on mead?
Is there any interest?
It wouldn't be covered in the tasting exam as we don't have any proctors that are qualified to judge mead.
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Do you know who judges the mead nationals, I might contact them for more info, maybe to it in the UK.
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
Just a note, our usual National level judge for the exams is off the 'Murica to live. Ali Kocho-Williams will likely not be available.
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
29. SlugTrap
Not for all Saturdays, but I'd pop into a few.
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
29. SlugTrap
30. Skittlebrau
Quote from: Saruman on May 31, 2018, 11:26:32 AM
Just a note, our usual National level judge for the exams is off the 'Murica to live. Ali Kocho-Williams will likely not be available.
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
I saw that Reuben - I think Sam is now National - so we can ask him nicely :)
Either way it will be Q1 2019 - but it doesn't mean we cant hammer away with the course and get people educated.
We are still aiming to start end of august - people can feel free to add their names to this list.
Quick update ...
Just to let people know how this works...
There will be 8 classes - a higher attendance class will include off-flavours (might be 30 mins longer)
Classes will cost 15 euro each - please select your favorite dates... you can select more than eight - you only pay for the classes you can make.
At the end, we will select the most popular eight (with students and facilitators) - so there will only ever be 8 classes.
We cant take money at the venue or on the day - its all paid for in advance - as we have to order all the bits well in advance.
Venue is hopefully the BrewDock - kickoff is 1130 / 1145 - TBA with venue - No need to pay anything just yet - we will get all our ducks in a row first.
We recommend students attend the 8 classes but, if thats not possible - try to make a minimum 4 classes to get a proper grounding on judging and make a special effort to attend the off-flavour class which is very important.
We like to have 12-16 per class.
We are going to make a special effort this year to use the contacts the club has to get beers in which are not available in Off-Licenses in Ireland - so thats exciting.
There will also be some talks from Ireland Best Homebrewers past and present and hopefully some pro brewers, to help identify flaws, qualities and provide feedback to homebrewers.
Really looking forward to it, I think an important part of brewing is understanding how to taste, analyse and judge a beer.
So - fill in the doodle - hopefully we can run eight bumper classes - which will help us get the best beers in.
I may be mentioned it in earlier posts - the mock exam and official BJCP tasting exam are separate to this course, you can attend these without the course - but course attendees are given 'first dibs' on exam seats. We are hoping to secure the exam in Q1 2019 and the 'mock exam' is a couple of weeks before to get everyone in the mood - (paid separately).
:)
Any questions or queries - just hollar -
Otherwise - just fill in the doodle here (https://doodle.com/poll/qpwdmvkkewfibig8)
Thanks
Peter / Phil / Colm / Andrew / Rossa / James
Folks - good news update - we have permission to use upstairs in the BrewDock for the course - woohoo ! Those lads are sound
Im going to ping the mentors again, hopefully people getting back from holidays and fill in doodle - gonna be great !
Hi,
Due to a change of job, I'm going to be away or working a lot of weekends from September onwards, so I'm going to have to withdraw my name from the interested list.
Maybe another time.
Good luck to those continuing on!
No worries at all - Sure you can catch it next time ;)
Is it too late to register interest?
Do I just fill out the doodle?
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
29. SlugTrap
30. Skittlebrau
31. CClinton48
Quote from: phildearg on August 02, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
Is it too late to register interest?
Do I just fill out the doodle?
If you can commit to dates, add your name to the doodle - we're aiming for 12-16 a class and that isn't fully filled yet.
Asking for a friend, can non-members join?
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Quote from: kilianw on August 02, 2018, 05:34:34 PM
Asking for a friend, can non-members join?
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Nope, members only. It's worth it! :)
Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk
Quote from: kilianw on August 02, 2018, 05:34:34 PM
Asking for a friend, can non-members join?
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
To be honest - membership is only 10 euro - so easiest is to just join.
If he is only joining for the course thats ok.
We are lining up some pretty good beers for the tasting -so Im sure he will love it !
Quote from: CClinton48 on August 02, 2018, 04:29:45 PM
1. Mick
2. KDeath
3. BrewDorg
4. Dr Jacoby
5. Helmet
6. Simon_83
7. TJP
8. JDC123
9. Jcdonnan
10. Dr. Rudi
11. Oreils87
12. Qs
13. danger_zone
14. CeeDee
15. Vladabeer
16. craftyfecker
17 Mottly Brew
18. The Mandalorian1
19. Luciano
20. Codonohoe
21. kilianw
22. jawa
23. Ciaran
24. Nico
25. Hoptimus prime
26. pete.23
27. ciarannb
28. Saruman
29. SlugTrap
30. Skittlebrau
31. CClinton48
32. Chka123
Completely agree. The membership and class fees are great value.
Quote from: Partridge9 on August 04, 2018, 12:53:07 PM
Quote from: kilianw on August 02, 2018, 05:34:34 PM
Asking for a friend, can non-members join?
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
To be honest - membership is only 10 euro - so easiest is to just join.
If he is only joining for the course thats ok.
We are lining up some pretty good beers for the tasting -so Im sure he will love it !
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Take up is looking good - we might close it up on Wednesday - I'll ping it on facebook as well.
The class sizes are looking good now. I'll ping the facilitators and get back.
Looks like there is great interest this year - should be great !
Quote from: Partridge9 on August 06, 2018, 11:05:28 AM
Take up is looking good - we might close it up on Wednesday - I'll ping it on facebook as well.
The class sizes are looking good now. I'll ping the facilitators and get back.
Looks like there is great interest this year - should be great !
I'll add my name in before that, I just have to review dates with my other half to make sure I haven't committed to anything and forgotten about it.
Quote from: Partridge9 on August 06, 2018, 11:05:28 AM
Take up is looking good - we might close it up on Wednesday - I'll ping it on facebook as well.
The class sizes are looking good now. I'll ping the facilitators and get back.
Looks like there is great interest this year - should be great !
Any update on this - don't want to miss out.
Your grand -
So.. we have being chatting - we are going to go with 6 regular classes and one off-flavour class.
The Dates of the classes are ...
08 Sept - Pales / IPAs
15 Sept - Stouts
22 Sept - TBA
29 Sept - The Germans
06 Oct - Lighter Beers
13 Oct - Off Flavour
20 Oct - The Belgians
We will let you know the actual Styles from the 2015 Guidelines at least one week before each class.
We will also let you know the 'homework' Beer (an easy to get beer that we all score at home)
Andrew, rightly pointed out - that the off flavours shouldn't be last so you can use the skilled learned to try more beers
If anyone has homebrews - we do like to evaluate one homebrew per class - 4 - 6 bottles are required.
We can keep the homebrew brewer anomymous, donors choice.
So whats next ??
I'll setup a google docs and where you register and pay
To Register - fill out your name and select the classes you are attending - the total will appear - and simply pay that.
Then send an email from your preferred contact email address - to bjcp@nationalhomebrewclub.ie
The off Flavour class might have a small supplement - to cover the cost of the test kit - but I'll double check that and get back.
Once people have paid - they will get access to the BJCP Class student area, where we will put lots of useful material
I'll setup that registration sheet this weekend and get back here - should have everything sorted for Monday morning... thats the plan anyways.
Thanks
James
Ok folks - I have completed that google sheet - I have pre-populated with the classes you selected in the doodle.
We are going to charge the same for the off flavour class - - there might be a fiver supplement on the day - but with the current estimated numbers if wont be required.
Please check the classes you are down for BEFORE you pay - you can add a class or pull out of a class if something has changed - also - I may have made a mistake - so check and double check your dates !!!
Once you change the attendance it should update the price - its basically 15 euro per class + 0.13 (our accounting flag).
Once you have paid - please send an email - with your name / email address / ammount paid. We will use this email address for correspondence.
oh - there is talk of a bonus HOP class - Saturday 27th October - where we get the famous HOP Flavour Kit (200 euro)- this will be paid for seperately and will be run depending on demand. Thanks to Peter and Andrew for investigating this one.
Google Sheet Here ! (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lCeF3NCMtUCkzBCALbrfFcz_BN2hmXHrwwW2ZR1bkyg/edit?usp=sharing)
The Hop Kit looks class -
FYI - Hop Flavour Kit
24 vials, containing:
Bitter Hoppy, bitter
Butyric acid Putrid, baby vomit
Geraniol Floral, geranium flowers
Isovaleric acid Cheesy, old hops, sweaty socks
Light Struck Skunky, toffee or coffee like
Citrus Citrus, Apple, Sweet, Fruity, Pineapple
Exotic Coconut, Vanilla, Fruity, Glue-like
Linalool Fruity, Floral, Blueberry, Lavender, Rose-wood
Herbal Herbaceous, Resinous, Green, Balsamic, Piney, Light Terpene/Hydrocarbon Character
Berry Raspberry, Berry, Citrus, Woodlands, Floral, Violet
Perfume Perfume-like, Floral, Rose-like, Waxy
Piney Piney, Lilac, Conifer-like, Resinous, Woody, Lime
Woody Woody, Resinous
Grapefruit Fruity, Grapefruit, Citrus (Green Notes)
Apricot Apricot, Fruity, Pineapple, Banana, Sweet, Honey
Floral Floral, Rosy, Waxy/Soapy
Catty Black Currant, Catty, Cassis, Astringent, Tart/Fruity, Herbal
Tobacco Natural, Woody, Sweet, Fruity, Plum, Spicy Tobacco Nuances, Menthol-like
Furaneol Cotton Candy, Strawberry, Sweet, Caramel
Potato Skins Potato Skins,Bell Pepper, Earthy, Musty (wine-like)
Cinnamon Cinnamon, Pungent, Spicy, Clove, Vanilla
Nonanal Citrus-like, Lime, Fatty, Soapy, Waxy, Grapefruit, Grape, Fruity
Anise Anise, Spicy, Sweet
Musty Metallic, Pungent, Musty, Green
That's a lot of off flavors for 1 session :(
na - that's the hop flavours in the hop flavour kit... we might run a class at the end if there is interest in it.
Sure we see how it goes..
Ah sorry gotcha
Quote from: CH on August 19, 2018, 10:43:29 PM
Ah sorry gotcha
Plus "the session" is more likely going to be a 1 day gig...
With refreshments
Will the Hop class be open to members not attending the tasting classes?
Yea - it a different gig to be fair
Still a few to pay up, if you have paid and cant / dont know how to update the google sheet - please let me know and I'll update it, no worries.
We really need to know the exact numbers to get the order correct.
I don't think the hop class is on the sheet?
Sorry for the confusion - the hop class is still at the concept stage !
The signup / paying is for the BJCP Tasting course - we need people to pay for their slots so we can order the correct volume of beer
Are folks waiting for payday as only a 1/3 that I can see have paid up☹️, would you let James know as soon as possible.
Payment made today and email sent with confirmation, but unable to update the Google Sheet if you can do the honours? Cheers.
Done !
Thanks
Folks a few still to pay - remember to check the classes and verify they are correct - now is the time to change, if needed.
The total should update once to change the classes -
Now.. lets order the Pliny .. they can only say no . :laugh:
Thanks
James
Quote from: Partridge9 on August 26, 2018, 06:22:29 PM
Now.. lets order the Pliny .. they can only say no . :laugh:
Hi all, I paid on the 18th Aug using the missus PayPal aoifecorr. I emailed after with my email address. Can you confirm you received this? Thanks
Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk
Also paid and emailed but can't update the google sheet if someone else is able to?
I've just paid for the 5 I can attend. Have also updated the sheet.
Quote from: Partridge9 on August 26, 2018, 06:22:29 PMNow.. lets order the Pliny .. they can only say no . :laugh:
I did; and they did.
I've just made the payment and sent the email. Sorry for the delay!
Most people paid up now- if anyone needs any assistance with the Google doc or paypal please hollar
A few Stragglers .. almost there !!
Thanks
James
All paid up and Google Doc updated.. Looking forward to this!
I just paid now.
Still 3 or 4 unpaid ..
I am presuming that the days no longer suit or something... course is a week away and have to confirm beer numbers
If you are interested and just forgot to pay - ping me ASAP
Thanks
James
Am I one of the unpaid? I realised that even though I said on here I couldn't attend, I didn't remove my name from the list, apologies for this if I'm one of the ones you've been chasing down.
Nope your name was removed.
James do you want to pm those who haven't paid at this point as beer needs to be ordered during the week yeah? Let me know if you need a hand with any of the logistics.
Will the student area be available before the classes kick off?
Quote from: KDeath on September 04, 2018, 11:22:05 AM
Will the student area be available before the classes kick off?
Nope, we're actually opening the pub so you couldn't get in beforehand!
Quote from: Pheeel on September 04, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: KDeath on September 04, 2018, 11:22:05 AM
Will the student area be available before the classes kick off?
Nope, we're actually opening the pub so you couldn't get in beforehand!
I think he means the Google Drive with the student materials?
We're still pulling together all the material, so it will be just before or after the first class.
How long is each class lads?
Quote from: molc on September 04, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: Pheeel on September 04, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: KDeath on September 04, 2018, 11:22:05 AM
Will the student area be available before the classes kick off?
Nope, we're actually opening the pub so you couldn't get in beforehand!
I think he means the Google Drive with the student materials?
We're still pulling together all the material, so it will be just before or after the first class.
Ahhh ;)
Quote from: Qs on September 04, 2018, 01:10:57 PM
How long is each class lads?
Should be about 1.5-2 hours
Anyone Know Cris Moore ? He is all paid but I have no email / contact
Please PM me so I can add you to the circulars
Just wanted to say thanks to all involved for putting this course together and making it happen. I for one learned a hell of a lot, and tried styles and beers that I have never had before. The Belgians was a great way to finish on Saturday and it's hard to believe that seven enjoyable and informative weeks have come to a close.
I know that there are loads of people involved to thank, but special thanks to Andrew for the off flavours (not necessarily enjoyable, but certainly informative) and of course James for putting the whole thing together. My thanks to all who played a part.
We'll see ye all for the exam in March.
Quote from: JDC on October 22, 2018, 01:37:50 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to all involved for putting this course together and making it happen. I for one learned a hell of a lot, and tried styles and beers that I have never had before. The Belgians was a great way to finish on Saturday and it's hard to believe that seven enjoyable and informative weeks have come to a close.
I know that there are loads of people involved to thank, but special thanks to Andrew for the off flavours (not necessarily enjoyable, but certainly informative) and of course James for putting the whole thing together. My thanks to all who played a part.
We'll see ye all for the exam in March.
Yeah, despite my rather poor attendance I'd just like to echo Jonathans thoughts above. Well organised and well run course.
Sorry I could only make a small amount of them. Thanks to the organisers for their hard work and to Brew Dock for the use of the premises.
I'm hoping that my poor attendance will not affect my exam score in March!!!
Just an FYI- I did mention to the other organisers that I would be happy to do a refresher of the sensory session before the exam, this time a little more focused (6 flavours rather than 12), if there is any interest.
I think it was one of the best courses we've had, the students were engaged - I think we will get a great crop of judges out of it
I'll start a thread for the tasting exam