National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => Yeast Board => Topic started by: DEMPSEY on April 10, 2019, 02:27:14 PM

Title: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 10, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Some time ago I heard that the big brewerys were involved with research into a new strain of yeast that can ferment a wort but not produce any alcohol. If such a yeast can become viable then the whole new world of beers that taste like beer with no alcohol would truly take hold. However try as I have I cannot find any information out there  . Anyone know anything 
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Hingo on April 10, 2019, 02:45:06 PM
https://www.chr-hansen.com/en/food-cultures-and-enzymes/fermented-beverages/cards/article-cards/fermentation-redefined

NEER yeast. Read about it a while back, patiently waiting.

Apparently there's a small % of this type in all strains so some part of your beer is already fermenting with no alcohol by product. Think the trick is now to make it its own strain assuming there's no biological co-dependency factors etc.

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Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 10, 2019, 10:42:34 PM
A technique that may work would be to produce a high temp mash and after boil to starve the wort of any oxygen and to ferment at 2 to 4 C. Anaerobic yeast growth will happen which should inhibit ethanol.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 11, 2019, 08:21:00 PM
This crowd in the USA seem to be getting good review,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRhSz2nYEGQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRhSz2nYEGQ
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 11, 2019, 08:52:00 PM
https://youtu.be/XRhSz2nYEGQ
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Will_D on April 12, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Why are posts 3 and 4 empty?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 12, 2019, 10:21:14 AM
My phone seems not to be putting up a YouTube link >:(.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on April 12, 2019, 10:33:58 AM
Look up Athletic brewing company on YouTube.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Hingo on April 12, 2019, 10:46:42 AM
Quote from: Will_D on April 12, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Why are posts 3 and 4 empty?
Works fine on Tapatalk, probably doesn't agree with the web forum(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190412/4dfc752936af65a18aae010db1001cb1.jpg)

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Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Thewicklowhopscompany on May 11, 2019, 08:00:00 PM
I am thinking about releasing a 'non alcoholic' yeast . There is a pair of them that do the job that I have been looking at.

Basically they can ferment fructose, glucose and sucrose but not the other constituents of the wort. If you start with a 1.023 gravity it should finish with about .5% ABV which falls technically into the non alcoholic category. Do you think this is something homebrewers would be interested in/?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: delzep on May 11, 2019, 08:28:27 PM
I'd give that a go. Would it produce a watery beer? Your 1.023 example would only drop about 4 points to give 0.5%  abv. Would it be as simple as substitute this yeast for us05 in a simple pale ale for example?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Thewicklowhopscompany on May 11, 2019, 09:32:55 PM
It would be actually more on the sweeter end as there is still a lot of residual sugar unlike most not alcholic beers which can be watery. If you used the yeast in too high of a starting gravity it with will be way too  sweet due to small attenuation of the yeast and therefore the amount of sugar left behind.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: delzep on May 11, 2019, 10:23:20 PM
So brew a beer (a pale ale for example) to about 1.018 and let it drop to about 1.014 and keg? Hmm, could be worth a try so long as the body of the beer is ok
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 11, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Would like a bash at this yeast too. Liffey Brewers meet at end of month be a good place to chat about this GREAT yeast. :-*
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: itsclinto on May 11, 2019, 11:42:52 PM


Quote from: Thewicklowhopscompany on May 11, 2019, 08:00:00 PM
I am thinking about releasing a 'non alcoholic' yeast . There is a pair of them that do the job that I have been looking at.

I'd be interested in something like this also.

The high finishing gravity reminds me of Guinness' non-alcoholic ale. A bit sweet but I'm sure that comes with the yeast. Kinda wondered how they did it

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Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Will_D on May 12, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
So, Liffey brewers get hold of some samples, brew up a few test beers, publish their findings and recommendations. Then we hold a LA competition open to all full members: any style and maybe even a cider or two, just using the WHC yeast.

Think of the PR potential.

"No longer will home brew knock the socks of you, the NHC of Ireland are now brewing great tasting Low Alcohol beers.

Drink Responsibly with the NHC"
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 12, 2019, 11:30:56 AM
We might have to add "Home of the sobers" to our title along with our "home of the sours". O0
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 22, 2019, 08:30:44 AM
http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/cold-extraction-of-malt-components-and-their-use-in-brewing-applications/ I bit of interesting reading here. This is about cold extraction but in it there is a bit about how this process can help produce a low alcohol beer,

QuoteLow Alcohol Beer
The wort obtained from cold extracted mashing yields a wort that appears to have a disproportionately large quantity of the proteins that are responsible for good head retention and mouthfeel. Employing a cold extraction method to a standard 1.050 gravity recipe will result in a 1- 1.5% ABV beer with a full mouthfeel and good head retention.
When formulating low alcohol beer by this method one should consider that there is very little sweetness due to low residual dextrin content, and that it will be necessary to lower the level of hop bittering to achieve balance.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: molc on May 22, 2019, 08:49:54 AM
Yup that's on the to brew list now. Great find there Dempsey.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 22, 2019, 09:06:04 AM
Cold extraction of pale malts can be used to produce a wort with nearly all amino acids and enzymes that would be available in a traditional mash process, but with only ΒΌ of the gravity
So you appear to get the required goody but a lot less gravity

Cold extraction can be used to formulate a beer where as little as 15% of the gravity comes from malt and 85% from adjunct (sugars) resulting in a beer with similar perception without the use of special enzymes.

Given that 15% of the gravity is from the malts then adjusting the adjunct additions is the next step.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 22, 2019, 09:07:22 AM
QuoteLow Alcohol Beer
The wort obtained from cold extracted mashing yields a wort that appears to have a disproportionately large quantity of the proteins that are responsible for good head retention and mouthfeel. Employing a cold extraction method to a standard 1.050 gravity recipe will result in a 1- 1.5% ABV beer with a full mouthfeel and good head retention.
When formulating low alcohol beer by this method one should consider that there is very little sweetness due to low residual dextrin content, and that it will be necessary to lower the level of hop bittering to achieve balance.

Given this to be the case how best to add the hops is the question.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 22, 2019, 02:43:51 PM
From what I gather you want to mash at 10C for 60 to 90 minutes. A normal 1050 sg recipe should produce a 1010 /1015 sg from this. You would then need to filter it well as the debris will burn in the wort when you boil it. As you bring up the temperature some of the enzymes will kick in and start converting starch and as we don't want this it makes sense to get up to boil quickly.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: delzep on May 22, 2019, 02:53:03 PM
So the wort will be loaded with starch?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 22, 2019, 05:11:32 PM
http://jonscrazybrews.blogspot.com/2017/03/non-enzymatic-mashing-aka-cold-mashing.html
Interesting approach here. The issue of his second hot mash at 60 minutes will bring more fermentables so I think that controlling both the time and temperature here would be a good place to control the final ABV.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on May 23, 2019, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: delzep on May 22, 2019, 02:53:03 PM
So the wort will be loaded with starch?
No the starch is mostly left behind in the grain. The leftover grain can be used in another hoy mash brew as an adjunct.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: phoenix on May 27, 2019, 06:28:36 PM
Quote from: Thewicklowhopscompany on May 11, 2019, 08:00:00 PM
I am thinking about releasing a 'non alcoholic' yeast . There is a pair of them that do the job that I have been looking at.

Basically they can ferment fructose, glucose and sucrose but not the other constituents of the wort. If you start with a 1.023 gravity it should finish with about .5% ABV which falls technically into the non alcoholic category. Do you think this is something homebrewers would be interested in/?
I'd be all over this if you release it. Keep us posted, let me know if you need testers, cheers
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Will_D on August 24, 2019, 10:14:03 AM
Any updates on this thread?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on October 09, 2019, 11:43:32 AM
Updates ;), given that a cold mash doe not bring much dextrins and so you end up with a dry tasting beer it seem logical to promote Alpha amylase. As the temperature rises from the cold mash temperature we could bring it to 74C to help with Alpha and not Beta amylase. A second help may be to adjust PH higher for this as Beta likes 4.0 to 5.5 PH where as Alpha likes 6.7 to 7.0PH. :-\. by flaring PH I wonder would this be of benefit.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Will_D on October 10, 2019, 10:21:53 AM
Quote from: Thewicklowhopscompany on May 11, 2019, 08:00:00 PM
I am thinking about releasing a 'non alcoholic' yeast . There is a pair of them that do the job that I have been looking at.

Basically they can ferment fructose, glucose and sucrose but not the other constituents of the wort. If you start with a 1.023 gravity it should finish with about .5% ABV which falls technically into the non alcoholic category. Do you think this is something homebrewers would be interested in/?
Many thanks for the great talk at Brewcon.

I am sure a lot of us would be interested in a LA yeast being available.

Any updates?
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on October 13, 2019, 04:44:03 PM
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.465
A bit of heavy reading here but still an interesting approach all the same.
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: DEMPSEY on October 20, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
The yeast mentioned in the above article is here.
https://www.hefebank-weihenstephan.de/en/products/yeast/spezialhefen/wsl-17/
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: guest2162 on October 21, 2019, 02:40:31 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191021/cfaced4db117903f081bec70495a5614.jpg)

This is their price list... steep for an individual, but I'd be interested in chipping in with others to try it out!
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: mick02 on October 21, 2019, 09:32:39 PM
I was chatting to Philip in WHC and he has this strain. He said that this yeast worked really well in lab trials but in a brewery environment the wort always infected by other strains of saccharomyces.

Before you send your cash abroad give Philip a shout and he might be able to sort you out.

Mick
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: guest2162 on October 21, 2019, 09:33:27 PM
Cool, will do! Thanks!
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: Pheeel on July 08, 2020, 12:32:15 PM
I tried the cold extraction method at the weekend. Stuck my GF into the fridge and left it there overnight
Turned on the pump for 30 mins before transferring for a boil
The wort was murky as hell and I ended up with black shite burnt into the base. Tasted alright

I'll see this weekend if it's done
Title: Re: Brewing alcohol free
Post by: delzep on July 09, 2020, 12:17:04 AM
Sounds lovely  ;D