National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => Equipment & Chemicals => Topic started by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:23 PM

Title: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:23 PM
I couldn't find a projects/diy/diary/blog section, and figured it fit best here, however moderators please feel free to move as you see appropriate.

To give some insight into my rapid descent, I am a scientist by background (laboratory based phd that I dropped out of in the final year), and although I am no longer a practicing scientist, that training sticks with you. The basic BIAB process is fun, and I'm producing some drinkable beers, 1 gallon at a time, but I'm keen to tighten up the variance in a few areas, and delve deeper into the home brewing rabbit hole.

I read everything there was to read about the grainfather, and had all but clicked order when I stepped back to think for a moment, and figured dropping the best part of €1k (g30, chiller and fermenter) is probably a bit wacky at 2 months into a new hobby.

So I have watched everything there is to watch about BIAB in a catering tea urn, read everything there was to read about the tweaks needed to achieve a rolling boil, and the burning out of elements as a result, and placed an order for a 30L buffalo from nisbets that should arrive in the coming days. I'm aware of the other options like the peco boilers or adding kettle elements to food grade buckets etc, but I have a probably unnecessary aversion to plastic.

I have a grain bag and a hop bag, which should limit the amount that can cake on the element during the boil. I may also fashion a false bottom from a sieve if needed. I'm planning to bypass the thermostat and pick up an inkbird to keep the mash temperature stable as a start point, with future plans to put to use a spare raspberry pi I have kicking around as a craftbeerpi controller. I of course need to pick up some insulation foil to wrap it with, and a ball valve with bazooka filter.  There's a lot of scope to add a pump for recirculating wort, but once those initial few bits mentioned above are done I'll likely make do with that for mashing and boiling for the foreseeable brew days and switch focus to fermentation next (currently using 1 gallon glass carboys in the spare room wardrobe).

This thread will likely prove how spending €750 (or whatever the current price is) on a grainfather is actually very good value, but at least we should have some fun getting there, and I thought it might be fun and informative for anyone in a similar position in the future.

Spend to date:
BIAB bag - €27.17
Hop bag - €9.95
30L buffalo boiler - €133.08
TOTAL - €170.20

Current cost of grainfather g30 on geterbrewed - €746.67

Cost delta - +€576.47
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:55 PM
If you have gone down this road, and have any advice/insight, I am all ears!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: mick02 on November 12, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:55 PMIf you have gone down this road, and have any advice/insight, I am all ears!
Calling @ibecake ...
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Ibecake on November 12, 2020, 04:09:19 PM
Quote from: mick02 on November 12, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:55 PMIf you have gone down this road, and have any advice/insight, I am all ears!
Calling @ibecake ...

LOL Thanks Mick

Hi Colm89
Im probably of similar persuasion to yourself why spend €800 when I'm sure I can do it myself. This took me on an adventure of firstly building a three vessel electric system followed by what you are looking at a grainfather BIAB clone.
I have learned a lot and it was a great experience and can help with any questions but ultimately it won't save you a penny you will be in a constant cycle of upgrading hardware pumps elements and fittings leaving very little time for brewing. My brew days used to consist of a 2 hour setup checking for leaks and safety checks before I even got started. I have electrocuted myself twice 😂 and dumped more beer than I care to think about.
I recently bought the Brewster Beacon 30l for a fraction of the cost of a grainfather and I have brewed seamlessly nearly every month since. What you save is euros you lose in brewing time. If your doing it to make something then go for it I'm here to help if you need it but I wish I had just bought a proper setup years ago. Happy brewing and remember brown is live 🤟
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: Ibecake on November 12, 2020, 04:09:19 PM
Quote from: mick02 on November 12, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 02:24:55 PMIf you have gone down this road, and have any advice/insight, I am all ears!
Calling @ibecake ...

LOL Thanks Mick

Hi Colm89
Im probably of similar persuasion to yourself why spend €800 when I'm sure I can do it myself. This took me on an adventure of firstly building a three vessel electric system followed by what you are looking at a grainfather BIAB clone.
I have learned a lot and it was a great experience and can help with any questions but ultimately it won't save you a penny you will be in a constant cycle of upgrading hardware pumps elements and fittings leaving very little time for brewing. My brew days used to consist of a 2 hour setup checking for leaks and safety checks before I even got started. I have electrocuted myself twice 😂 and dumped more beer than I care to think about.
I recently bought the Brewster Beacon 30l for a fraction of the cost of a grainfather and I have brewed seamlessly nearly every month since. What you save is euros you lose in brewing time. If your doing it to make something then go for it I'm here to help if you need it but I wish I had just bought a proper setup years ago. Happy brewing and remember brown is live 🤟

Haha thanks for the input. Admittedly as soon as I hit buy on the buffalo I had mild buyers remorse, but have spent the last 8 hours convincing myself it will work out.

In your honest opinion, should I cut my losses here, cancel the buffalo, and order the middle ground GF clone like a robobrew or brew monk?
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Ibecake on November 12, 2020, 06:08:53 PM
TBH you can still get the boiler and use it till you have the funds to purchase an all in one if it doesn't work out. you'll be fine because you'll still need the boiler to prepare your sparge water every all in ones need a second boiler or pot to do this so it's not a wasted purchase. I'm using two pots which is not ideal hopefully Santa will bring me a boiler.
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: Ibecake on November 12, 2020, 06:08:53 PMTBH you can still get the boiler and use it till you have the funds to purchase an all in one if it doesn't work out. you'll be fine because you'll still need the boiler to prepare your sparge water every all in ones need a second boiler or pot to do this so it's not a wasted purchase. I'm using two pots which is not ideal hopefully Santa will bring me a boiler.

Right you are, I shall proceed as planned, should be a great source of entertainment for the community at least!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: DEMPSEY on November 12, 2020, 07:48:31 PM
The grainfather is a polished piece of kit and well worth it. When you plan a self build you start with known knowledge and design with that knowledge but as you move along you inevitably learn and so redesign and modify and add and subtract and..... .
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: DEMPSEY on November 12, 2020, 07:53:30 PM
https://www.adverts.ie/other-diy-renovation/brewing-equipment/22117863
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Damofto on November 12, 2020, 09:51:42 PM
What about one of these instead of the Buffalo boiler, at least the temp control would be built in?

https://www.geterbrewed.ie/digital-turbo-boiler-35-litres-kegland/
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 12, 2020, 11:37:50 PM
Aha the buffalo has already been purchased and dispatched, but there's probably a reasonable returns policy. I'll sleep on it and see how I feel about keeping it and ploughing ahead when it arrives tomorrow
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Phil.cork on November 13, 2020, 08:46:50 AM
Just to muddy the waters further I have a klarstein mundschenk xl 50l capacity and could not be happier. Its the same as the hopcat/angel brewing/other ones. Couldn't be happier with it. I've brewed 46l into fermenters with it (sparging). I got mine as ex display stock on hifi tower.ie (had a dent in the cardboard box) so cost<€400
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Paul86 on November 13, 2020, 10:07:05 AM
Similar to Phil.cork, I purchased the hopcat 45L brewing system new for ~400 EURO about a year ago, I only use it for 20-25L brews but more than happy with it so far and brew days have been so much handier/quicker.
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: craftyfecker on November 13, 2020, 12:02:44 PM
I'll just add my 2 cents to this. The buffalo boiler is a good purchase so don't regret it. I went with the 40lt version a few years back and used it for a good two years as both a mash tun and boiler. It keeps a good rolling boil ( I don't think I had to override the thermostat on it either). It has a crude enough temp control with the dial on the side which I now use to set my strike/sparge water for use in a different system (I have a marking between 1 and 2 on the dial that works well for 70c). You are going to want to change out the tap on it but you should have no issues getting a solid 3-piece tap. I would also recommend one of these, https://store.brewpi.com/mashing/filtering/brewpi-mattmill-lauterhexe-kit . I have thrown massive amount of hops at it with great success as well as mashing with it.

I have moved on to 50L braumeister that I have borrowed from a friend but I still use the buffalo now and then. It's a solid bit of kit for the price.

Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Bazza on November 13, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
Hi Colm,

I'm totally in agreement with craftyfecker.

I bought a Burco Cygnet 30L tea urn on Amazon for around £75. Didn't have to make any modifications for a rolling boil. 5 years, and almost 100 brews later and she's still going strong.

I mash a grain bag in it (loosely covered with some foil insulation plus the original box it came in), then swap that out for a hop spider when boiling. The only fiddly part is having to lift out the hop spider to get the immersion chiller in, towards the end of the boil, but that's about it.

Now, I'm not dissing the all-in-one systems at all. I just figured that £800 is a lot to spend on something that essentially saves you some guesswork, and a marginal amount of time during the brewday itself; you'll still have all the other hassles like fermenting, bottling/kegging, conditioning, storage, temp control, etc to deal with, Grainfather or no Grainfather. Another reason I didn't go for the likes of the Grainfather is the same reason I don't own a complete bean-to-cup coffee machine; I prefer the ability to easily swap out faulty parts of a system rather than do without the entire unit while one part of it is being fixed.

I also changed out the original tap on the Burco for a proper ball valve tap, but that was only so it would take a bazooka hop filter, which turned out to be shite anyway; especially with pellet hops.

One thing I'd advise you don't compromise on and that's a thermometer. It's worth spending an extra few quid on a quick, reliable, accurate and sturdy thermometer. I agree with craftyfecker, the temp dial on the side of these boilers is a rough guide at best.

I had previously owned a Peco mashing boiler thing, but it was plain awful. The mashing control unit blew after only a handful of brews and the element always cut out at around 90 degrees (supplier sent me a replacement element but 2 brews later, same thing - and yes; I did clean it; you could see your face in the fecker), resulting in my having to cut a second hole in the thing to install a cheap Tesco kettle element to get it to a boil. Yes; a wonderful horror show of wobbly plastic, water and bare wires.


Just to finalise; If you prefer the more hands-on approach to brewing the Buffalo offers just that. You'll be grand  :)


Cheers,

-Barry

P.s. Happy to be corrected and chastised by all the Grainfather owners out there :)
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: molc on November 13, 2020, 09:41:44 PM
There's a whole thread somewhere on the forums where I've built a full 3V setup with automation. I love the thing, but I'm probably 100+ brews down on a grainfather and I rarely dust off the big rig as it's just too time consuming.

That said, I dont regret building the main rig; it was a lot of fun. Just the most efficient path to beer is the grainfather by far.
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 14, 2020, 10:04:31 AM
Thanks all for the food for thought, it has of course not helped my decision at all  :D

The boiler arrived yesterday, so I settled in with the remains of my German blonde ale to have a good heart to heart with the buffalo to come to a mutual decision.

We arrived at the conclusion that I'll plough on with the diy plan and if it goes belly up and I survive the electrocutions I'll get a grainfather. I'm a diyer/bodger at heart.

So here he is, the 30 litre buffalo:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50600206491_ce17f271d9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k6nhvi)
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 14, 2020, 10:12:36 AM
As a start point I need to get an order in for a 1/2" tap kit and a filter of some sort, possibly the one craftyfecker linked, although if I'm mashing in a bag and adding hops in a bag maybe it's excessive?

Also need to order some insulation and aluminium tape.

First brew day with the new boiler is currently planned for tomorrow week, so need to pick up a wort chiller too, as I can't exactly drop this in an ice bath to cool it!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Inky on November 15, 2020, 10:46:36 PM
I'm kinda along the lines of ibecake  I have it in my head that "I can build it" 🤣 it may take me a long time and I'll prob electrocute myself too ha but its the fun of building it too.
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 15, 2020, 10:53:21 PM
Geterbrewed have a 15% discount on the brew monk, and I came very close to just ordering one, but I'm committed to trying the diy route now.

I have ordered a ball valve and some other stainless fittings from brewbuilder, and need to order some thermawrap!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: DEMPSEY on November 16, 2020, 11:07:13 AM
Plan a 3 way valve in your build plan
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 16, 2020, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on November 16, 2020, 11:07:13 AMPlan a 3 way valve in your build plan

I've ordered a standard ball valve but am curious to hear why I should have gotten one of these?
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: DEMPSEY on November 16, 2020, 11:27:56 AM
You will find that when you start setting out your plan, a 3 way valve makes it handy to change wort direction from example recirculation to transfer to a boil kettle. If its a 3 vessel design that is. If you plan a BIAB model like a grainfather single vessel then not so much.
 
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: DEMPSEY on November 16, 2020, 11:30:00 AM
A pencil an A4 blank book and a rubber is a great start and its cheap too ;)
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 16, 2020, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on November 16, 2020, 11:27:56 AMYou will find that when you start setting out your plan, a 3 way valve makes it handy to change wort direction from example recirculation to transfer to a boil kettle. If its a 3 vessel design that is. If you plan a BIAB model like a grainfather single vessel then not so much.
 

Aha, got you, definitely staying with single vessel BIAB initially due to space constraints!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Gerryjo on November 17, 2020, 12:52:07 PM
Like @Bazza I have a Burco but modified with 1/2 SS ball valve,copper manifold and the addition of a 12v water pump rated to 100 degrees and use it for recirculating to a mash tun but it's the same for BIAB.These are cheap and reliable if your interested.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/HSeaMall-Brushless-Submersible-Amphibious-Circulation/dp/B07L89V1N6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=12v+hot+water+pump&qid=1605617309&sr=8-5
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 23, 2020, 10:45:02 AM
Not a whole heap to update here, as I wait for a delivery from brew builder and Amazon.

I have removed the original spigot:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50636447798_d32bb222d0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k9z2Mq)

And simplified the wiring to remove the thermostat:

Before:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50625134531_67a1c6dfb4_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k8z3K6)

After:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50625134516_0f08abce50_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k8z3JQ)

Thermostat out:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50625235587_a0778325c5_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k8zyMr)

In the post arriving at various points this week I have:
1/2" ss ball valve, various 1/2" ss fittings, and a bazooka filter
PID kit, on/off toggle switch, ceramic connector blocks

Spend to date:
BIAB bag - €27.17
Hop bag - €9.95
30L buffalo boiler - €133.08
1/2" tap/fittings/filter - €71.50
PID kit/toggle switches/ceramic blocks - €61.76
TOTAL - €303.46

Current cost of grainfather g30 on geterbrewed - €746.67

Cost delta - +€443.21

I'm not far off the cost of a brew monk, and when I buy a pump and other necessary bits I'll probably tip it over the current cost of the brew monk, but sure look, isn't it keeping me occupied in lockdown  ;D
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Shanna on November 26, 2020, 06:55:20 PM
My two cents. I built a four vessel system over time with various mods for automation as three pump input and output, timed start/switch off and temperature threshold switch off. I use it to brew 20 to 40 litre batches of beer. It is a bit of work to set up but mainly because I don't leave everything in place so I disassemble and reassemble  after and before every brew. I can't and won't comment on the grain father as I don't have one. I have heard others talk about the convenience integrated app, automation and even the counter flow chiller all great I am sure. I have also heard others talk about slow times to achieve boil and heat sparge water so that people buy extra pots and extra heat sticks to help speed things up.

My own preference is to do things myself as much as possible and I lucky to have a large brewing space to store and use the system I have. I have learned how to bend and solder copper pipes to make two copper chiller coils, wire up stc 1000 (32 amp) temperature controller and also made a home made PID controller for a fraction of the cost. But really it is not only about money it is for me about being able to tinker and adapt the setup as I like it. I would suspect that there are a lot of home made three vessels systems gathering dust owned by grain father owners that if one made an offer the grain father owners would sell on.

Shanna
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on November 29, 2020, 02:36:11 PM
I brewed 10 litres of ipa with this boiler on Friday in its current state (1/2 inch ball valve fitted and thermostat removed), and following the 60 minute boil the plug housing and cable got very warm. The plug pins themselves were too hot to touch.

Google suggests the plug socket itself could be the problem, and it probably is quite old, but changing it is not an option as we're currently in a rental house.

I'm going to try a different socket next time but if it happens again I might give up on the diy route and investigate an alternative. I guess if it's the case that the socket is old causing higher resistance then I'll encounter the same with another electric all in one system?
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: Shanna on November 29, 2020, 04:33:52 PM
Maybe consult an eletrician or landlord as this could be indicitive of a more general problem with the wiring. Replacing a socket wven in a rented house is not something I would personally give a second thought. I would consider finding the fuseboard and isolate the problem socket by switching off the fuse that controls it and check that all of the connections are good and tight in the socket. Double check for any signs of carbon build up, scorching  or anything that might be oily, greasy or black in colour. If you see that it indicates an overheat and I would get the socket replaced. I recently had this problem in one of the sockets in the shed. What tipped me off was sparking when removing the plug.

As it turned out there was a significant carbon build up. No problem with the device just the socket eventually wore out from 40+ brews with a 2.7kw element plugged in to it. Remember the heaters do heat and it would not be unusual for a water heater running continously for minutes and on all of the time to have some heat.

Also if you could limit the things operating on the same electrical circuit to just your boiler you would reduce the chance of an overload.

Shanna
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: CWalsh on November 29, 2020, 08:09:17 PM
Do you know what size fuse is in the plug? Could be a simple case that you need a higher amperage fuse.
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on December 01, 2020, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: CWalsh on November 29, 2020, 08:09:17 PMDo you know what size fuse is in the plug? Could be a simple case that you need a higher amperage fuse.

It's 13A, is that not the highest you'd want to go?
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: CWalsh on December 01, 2020, 12:48:04 PM
Yeah that usually would be fine for any sort of kettle. Do you know what kw the kettle is? Could very well be the socket as you mentioned
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on January 18, 2021, 09:42:37 PM
2 months and 5 brews later, some observations:

- I needn't have worried about a PID to hold a stable temp for mashing. Mashing in full volume with no sparge, with a layer of thermawrap on the outside keeps mash temps super stable. It only lost 1 degree in a 90 minute mash yesterday.
- I've switched to using a different socket and the plug no longer heats up to a concerning temperature.
- Bigger brews are difficult to get through when you're the only beer drinker in the house and in lockdown. I'm a bit over hoppy IPA now.
- Bigger brews kick out a heck of a lot of steam, which is not ideal in a rental house with no outdoor space.

All in all, an interesting journey, but I'm going back to smaller brews on the hob til we move into our own place in a few months, after which I'm building myself up to buying a 10l braumeister if I can find a way to justify it!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: iBrau on January 22, 2021, 11:28:15 PM
Heating of the plug pins is caused by poor contact between the metal in the socket and the metal of the plug pin. Removing corrosion from the socket or plug will fix this - better electrical contact and less heating of the plug.

Obviously it's difficult to clean the socket, but i've had good results with scrubbing the plug pins with wire wool. If you find a safe way to clean a socket contacts let me know. Maybe a plug made of sandpaper :-)
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on January 23, 2021, 09:06:32 AM
Quote from: iBrau on January 22, 2021, 11:28:15 PMHeating of the plug pins is caused by poor contact between the metal in the socket and the metal of the plug pin. Removing corrosion from the socket or plug will fix this - better electrical contact and less heating of the plug.

Obviously it's difficult to clean the socket, but i've had good results with scrubbing the plug pins with wire wool. If you find a safe way to clean a socket contacts let me know. Maybe a plug made of sandpaper :-)


Haha indeed, I'm almost certain it's the old sockets in my rental house, particularly where I used to brew, and much less so where I done the last few brews!
Title: Re: Colm89’s “probably should have just bought a grainfather” thread
Post by: colm89 on March 04, 2021, 05:50:48 PM
Finally got the finger out and finished hacking this together, seen below auto tuning pid and leak testing with h2o:


Health and safety didn't sign off on this beta testing setup, but all extension leads will be safely away from stray liquid on brew day!

All in all, an interesting exercise, probably a little cheaper but less refined than a grainfather. I suppose the upside is it can all be transferred to a nicer vessel when I feel like upgrading, but when all is said and done I regret not just stumping up for a grainfather at the outset.

First brew this weekend so fingers crossed it doesn't spring a leak and end up as a pile of frustration in the bin  ;D