I seen a lot of people on about using yeast starters.
What exactly are the benefits of this? I have always just pitched dry yeast directly into the primary
Quote from: http://www.whitelabs.com/resources/homebrew-starter-tipsA yeast starter is used to initiate cell activity or increase the cell count before using it to make your beer. The yeast will grow in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, which then can be added to 5 gallons of wort.
It's like when you're on the couch watching netflix and someone phones you to go to the pub and you're all like 'Nah, too lazy.. but ok" and then you get to the pub and you're all tired and stuff and it takes ages to get into it.
But if you had been prepared like the starter and you and your mates were all in your front room with coke and hookers and cans of cheap piss, then you'd be in the zone to go and paint the town red.
Although, with dry yeast you're normally ok to simply rehydrate or pitch directly.
Quote from: LordEoin on August 25, 2015, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: http://www.whitelabs.com/resources/homebrew-starter-tipsA yeast starter is used to initiate cell activity or increase the cell count before using it to make your beer. The yeast will grow in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, which then can be added to 5 gallons of wort.
It's like when you're on the couch watching netflix and someone phones you to go to the pub and you're all like 'Nah, too lazy.. but ok" and then you get to the pub and you're all tired and stuff and it takes ages to get into it.
But if you had been prepared like the starter and you and your mates were all in your front room with coke and hookers and cans of cheap piss, then you'd be in the zone to go and paint the town red.
Brilliant! ;D
But do you get better beer through a starter or does liquid yeast eventually catch up if pitched straight into the beer?
As with everything, it depends ;) However, most likely no, as the yeast will have been stressed growing in the high alcohol environment, not to mention the viabality of the yeast in the vial before you pitched. More off flavours will be thrown off during the lag phase which may not get cleaned up properly. Also, there is more chance of the yeast stalling in fermentation.
Easiest thing is to always make an appropriate starter if you're getting liquid yeast, otherwise just stick with dry yeast I'd say.
To keep on the same theme as LE what happens when a 16 year old goes to a brothel, he or she is done in 5 minutes.
There is insufficient cell count in a yeast vial to hit the ground running in 3rd gear and by the way you should put it in at high Krausen from your starter flask, which is 24-36 hours in or sooner if you have fresh yeast or using stir bars, otherwise you are starting in first gear will loose a few teeth, stress the yeast generating off flavours or it may even crap out altogether
You need big starters for big beers or lagers to get yeast munching
Quote from: Ciderhead on August 25, 2015, 03:33:12 PM
There is insufficient cell count in a yeast vial to hit the ground running in 3rd gear
It depends on the beer. A mild should be fine with a vial
Quote from: Pheeel on August 25, 2015, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: Ciderhead on August 25, 2015, 03:33:12 PM
There is insufficient cell count in a yeast vial to hit the ground running in 3rd gear
It depends on the beer. A mild should be fine with a vial
Sorry but that's just not true :o
Working with Liquid yeasts can be a pita and in the US because they are cheaper they pitch a couple at a time to avoid the faff of starters.
A vial in 100% condition straight from the producer contains 100 billion cells, a month old its only 75% viable
So to use a mild as an example, OG is 1030-1039 so taking 1034 on the low side, for 25L, you need 161 billion cells
one average mid dated vial in summer will have 50-80 Billion cells by the time you get it, so between 1/3 and half required level for a fermentation and so to avoid under pitching that will not be stressed from the outset you would need min 0.75L starter using a stirplate or 1.5L without to culture up sufficient yeast.
Remember its important also not to way overcook your yeast pitch but that it far outweighed by off-flavours from underpitching, I'm sorry if I did the dog on the explanation but its really important we get that type of info out there to ensure we are not frustrating ourselves with funky flavoured beers produced with liquid yeasts as I keep seeing and tasting in competitions :(
Pitch sufficient amounts of yeast, with good sanitisation and proper temperature control and you will never again make a bad beer bar something crazy happening.
Do you mix the yeast with LME or warm water when making a starter? And what quantity do you aim for? A pint/a litre?
So what exactly is the advantage of using a liquid yeast over a dried yeast, given that they re 2-3 times the price?
I take it there usually isn't any need for a starter for a dried yeast?
Few enough strains have a dry alternative and when there is, it is argued that the dry version is compromised and lacks the character of the liquid version.
Also if you reuse your yeast, it's cost is shared over numerous batches. After a while DME is the greater cost of making starters
The best method (http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/) of reusing yeast in my opinion is to overbuild your starters and refill a vial for later use
Quote from: Simon F on August 26, 2015, 12:30:58 PM
Few enough strains have a dry alternative and when there is, it is argued that the dry version is compromised and lacks the character of the liquid version.
I was just listening to a three part interview with David Logsdon of Wyeast on basic brewing radio . he mentions the fact we have all these great strains of yeast out there ,each with their own distinct flavor and characteristics . but once you have dehydrated them , you have lost that much of the strains characteristics so it just isnt worth the bother . seems like all you`d really end up with is very weak variations on existing dry yeast .
The brew i have on at the moment is my 4th ever so take anything i say on here with a hefty bag of salt .
but i think decent dry yeast is grand for anybody starting out like myself . if you sprinkle it on evenly as per the directions it should be fine . the Irish red i have on at the moment came out at 1058 , so i rehydrated the yeast to give it a running start . it took off no bother at all . at about 26hrs in i had to take the airlock off and run a sanatized blow off hoes into a jug of water .well i didnt have too maybe, but it was 1am and i really didnt fancy waking up to so sort of lovecraft horror lol it`s also sat in a garden shed so god only knows what could have got in there had the airlock got messed up.
After noticing how well rehydrated yeast seems to work . and if you`re going to move to liquid yeast , to take advantage of the much wider selection to pick from. i cant see why you wouldnt want to give it the best start you could . its prob the least bother you will go through during the entire brew . first get them fighting fit then unleash the hounds i say .
Has anyone got a decent guide to making a yeast starter?
I have a liquid whitelabs irish ale yeast in the fridge that I would like to use (possibly on a stout)
but I have never made a starter before. (I have always just pitched dried yeast directly into the wort up till now)
Is there any equipment I need for this?
Once again, BrewWiki to the rescue
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/wordpress/brewwiki/yeast-starters/
Quote from: Kevin Roundwood on August 26, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Do you mix the yeast with LME or warm water when making a starter? And what quantity do you aim for? A pint/a litre?
I use DME, I think most people do. I boil it in some water for 10-15 minutes then I cool it and add the yeast. Usually you want 1 gram of DME for every 10 ml. So a 3L starter needs 300g. Thats what I do anyway. The size in L of the starter depends entirely on the beer. This is another big advantage of making starters, you can give the beer exactly the right amount of yeast so you are not over or under pitching.
There are a few online calculators for how big to build your starter, I usually use Jamils (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html#%22) or the beersmith one.
[/quote]
I use DME, I think most people do. I boil it in some water for 10-15 minutes then I cool it and add the yeast. Usually you want 1 gram of DME for every 10 ml. So a 3L starter needs 300g. Thats what I do anyway. The size in L of the starter depends entie beer. This is another big advantage of making starters, you can give the beer exactly the right amount of yeast so you are not over or under pitching.
There are a few online calculators for how big to build your starter, I usually use Jamils (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html#%22) or the beersmith one.
[/quote]
Ah good man! That fills in a lot of blanks I had about starters. One more question - without hijacking the thread I hope - once you've made your starter how long does it last? And would you store it in the fridge? (OK 2 questions...) I would assume Mr & Mrs Yeast wouldnt be too happy in the cold.
You store them cold, warm them up when you want them to work. Having them at fridge temps puts them to sleep essentially. Some people on here even freeze yeast but I haven't tried that. How long starters last is open to debate. I've not tried leaving them more than a couple of weeks.
Quote from: Qs on August 26, 2015, 04:07:29 PM
I use DME, I think most people do.
I use a jar of malt extract from the health food shop.
No fuss with open bags of DME or half tins of LME.
Quote from: LordEoin on August 27, 2015, 09:02:00 AM
Quote from: Qs on August 26, 2015, 04:07:29 PM
I use DME, I think most people do.
I use a jar of malt extract from the health food shop.
No fuss with open bags of DME or half tins of LME.
Something like this?: http://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=2963
So, for a 2L starter, you'd just add 200g of the extract? I cab't find any detail on the water content from the link.
cool. Didn't know malt extract was sold that way.
I've run out of DME so I was playing with the idea of syphoning off a few litres from a brew day to make a starter a few days later.
Quote from: Simon F on August 27, 2015, 03:19:15 PM
cool. Didn't know malt extract was sold that way.
Aye man I use to eat it outta the jar as a kid . you should find it in the baking section . it`s use to make scones and the like .
Seeing as I use my DME to make starters, I don't want that stuff in my all grain beers, so I let the starter go past high krausen and the drop the yeast out of suspension with by crash cooling the starter, then I decant as much liquid as I can and pitch as much pure yeast only as I can.
I know CH will argue high krausen, but this will only really work if you're using the same wort to make your starter as you are using for your beer...this normally won't work at all with a lager unless you do a mini mash with the same malt as you use for your lager.
Not really I go 24 to 36 hours max as a general rule and and then let sit for an hour or two then decant off the beer
Quote from: Simon F on August 26, 2015, 12:30:58 PM
Also if you reuse your yeast, it's cost is shared over numerous batches. After a while DME is the greater cost of making starters
The best method (http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/) of reusing yeast in my opinion is to overbuild your starters and refill a vial for later use
Thanks for this. It's not news to me, but just reading it today got the gears turning and I'll probably start overbuilding and saving yeast.
As for the cost... I think it's not worth worrying about. If you overbuild and refill, that vial of newly made yeast is an absolute bargain. I just did a sample calculation using that page (excellent tool, I'll be using it in future), and I figure that the additional cost for the DME to make an extra 100 billion cells is on the order of €1. That depends on a lot of assumptions about your set up of course (and I'm assuming you're buying DME in 3 kg bags from HBC or GEB, and so for around €6.30/kg), but I can't see the cost of the refill reaching anywhere near the price of a new vial.
(And if, as Simon suggests, you use some all-grain wort instead of DME, then it's basically free. You'd probably want to get it before the hops went in and then boil it. Another option is to make an all-grain hop-free wort and can it for future starters).
Of course, your sanitation needs to be really good, or you're just wasting your time. And even so, it's probably safer to throw your yeast out on the nth generation and start again with a store-bought vial.
You know you are brewing too much when every computer fan in the house is spinning a stir bar
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/18/901ee291dd425c91d8301cba9c82b24c.jpg)
I have access to a few beakers, volumetric flasks and graduated cylinders. No erlenmeyer flasks though. Is there any reason these would not make a suitable substitute for the erlenmeyer in yeast starter production? I also have access to small stirplates (800ml max). Is the lower volume capacity going to be an issue with these stirplates?
Thanks
You are boiling on the stove and then chilling in an ice bath and pitching yeast into a fully sterile environment, if liquid starters are on your radar erlenmeyers are the way to go
If your yeast is fresh fresh you can get away with 1l starter but I always go with 1.5-2 to avoid off flavour issues with under pitching,beersmith will also tell you based on package date viability.
I'm a bit retentive about my yeast health and only collect and put in an insulated icebox for the journey home ???
Quote from: CH on September 19, 2015, 09:15:41 AM
You are boiling on the stove and then chilling in an ice bath and pitching yeast into a fully sterile environment, if liquid starters are on your radar erlenmeyers are the way to go
If your yeast is fresh fresh you can get away with 1l starter but I always go with 1.5-2 to avoid off flavour issues with under pitching,beersmith will also tell you based on package date viability.
I'm a bit retentive about my yeast health and only collect and put in an insulated icebox for the journey home ???
Thanks. What about splitting the batch between two stirplates (800+800)?
That's fecky but could be done, far easier just to get a min 3l erlenmeyer
Gonna try my first starter this week. Was looking at the mrmalty calculator. I'm planning a Baltic Porter fermented with wyeast Oktoberfest blend. It's fermented and then conditioned at 12C. Do I set it for hybrid or lager since it's not actually being lagered.
Definitely. You're using a lager yeast, so pitch as for a lager.
Quote from: Beermonger on September 23, 2015, 05:02:15 PM
Definitely. You're using a lager yeast, so pitch as for a lager.
I've got 1.6l on the go, going to decant off the wort and add another 2l tomorrow. Calculators are coming out around 400billion cells for 10l of beer!
I'm not sure what the proper numbers are, or where I read it but I've read that over pitching yeast can be bad for beer as well. More experienced people might know better.
Quote from: dcalnan on September 24, 2015, 12:48:59 AM
I'm not sure what the proper numbers are, or where I read it but I've read that over pitching yeast can be bad for beer as well. More experienced people might know better.
t
Was worried about this but I figure 2 different calculators are giving me similar figures so must be true. I doubt I'll get as high a cell count as the calcs suggest anyway, emptied some of the dme down the side of the Erlenmeyer so going as smooth as brewing always does for me!
400 billion in 10 litres? I can only get that number from mrmalty by assuming a gravity of 1.114. Is that what you're looking for?
The number of yeast cells depends only on the volume of beer and its OG. The age of your yeast and the starter method determines the number of litres of ~1.038 wort you need to use as a starter.
Quote from: Beermonger on September 24, 2015, 02:19:23 AM
400 billion in 10 litres? I can only get that number from mrmalty by assuming a gravity of 1.114. Is that what you're looking for?
The number of yeast cells depends only on the volume of beer and its OG. The age of your yeast and the starter method determines the number of litres of ~1.038 wort you need to use as a starter.
Sorry, rechecked, for 10l of 1.080 it gave a yeast count of 289 billion for lager. I think it was the brewers friend one that was closer to 400 for a high gravity lager. I still thought I'd have to step up the starter to reach even the lower target. (The yeast was manufactured 24/8/15).
I have the 1.6L starter made, just need to decide if I step it further.
It depends on if you shook manually (or not at all) or used a stirplate.
With a stirplate, it looks like 1.6 l should have been enough (first image).
If you were manually shaking it, then you might need to do another step of about 1.8 l (second image)
That's I assuming I have all the parameters right in the calculator (this one http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php but they should all give mostly similar results).
Quote from: Beermonger on September 24, 2015, 03:01:13 PM
It depends on if you shook manually (or not at all) or used a stirplate.
With a stirplate, it looks like 1.6 l should have been enough (first image).
If you were manually shaking it, then you might need to do another step of about 1.8 l (second image)
That's I assuming I have all the parameters right in the calculator (this one http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php but they should all give mostly similar results).
Thanks. Similar to what I was getting with the other calculator. I'm manually stirring but if I start doing this more regularly I'll definitely get a stir plate. I'll decant off this evening then add 1.8l of fresh wort.
Just did my first lager recently, and I realized that I really need that 5 l flask I have on order. Will probably get a stirplate too, but there's also a controversial "shake the shit out of it" method that someone linked to recently:
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=70926
its an interesting technique and I posted it here first but after 55 brews stirplates will be the way I continue as I know they work min 3-4Lt starters best to get your lager out of the blocks quickly
You regret posting it now don't you :)
I remember now it was you, CH. Couldn't find the original post last night.
Yep, stirplates do seem to be reliable. The one thing that caught my interest in the link you posted is how he mentions that stirplate starter don't smell as good as the shaken ones. Hard to know what to make of that, of course.
I think the most reasonable suggestion I would take from that guys thesis is to pitch your yeast at high krausen and that letting it go longer or crash cooling your yeast to decant isn't a great idea as it places the yeast into hibernation
I'm only here for a chat and a larf
"Spider in the bath, spider in the bath"
Doing my first lager in about 2 months. Do you do a 1l, then 4l step when making the starter? Also, do you usually cool and decant before pitching,as a 5L flask is big beast to get in the fridge :)
In theory you can scale X 10
I normally keep it to X 5 with lager yeast
Also important to pitch cold not hot in spite of previous advice around here :P and try and keep wort and yeast within 5 degrees to avoid thermal shock
I finish at 5l and pour off 4 after its settled some like Helles just don't and you need to pitch the lot, but 5l in a 20 batch is going to have a sig impact on overall beer
I finally seem to have gotten my stirplate to work, after changing the fan and adding a 12v motor controller. Its currently doing its work on a hefeweizen starter, I might need to buy a bigger flask as the two litre can bareyl contain the foam.
I spoke too soon, it's back to causing issues again.
I had huge problems with my stir plate until I switched to a stir bar without a pivot ring. For some reason the ring on the bar was just causing it to fly around the flask.
Ah that might be it, I'll get a flat one and try it out. Definitely cheaper than buying a ready made stir plate.