National Homebrew Club Ireland

So, lets start a new thread about this years juice.

First of all big thanks to everyone involved in the logistics,

So checvking the juice I get:

OG:  1.051 at 20C
pH: 3.6

Number of Campden tablets required:  2 per gallon so its 10 per drum if you want to suppress the natural yeasts.

Apologies for (possibly) muddying the water on the GB thread.  At 1.051, do you guys add sugars or ferment as is?  1.050 has been my traditional target, this is the first year I've seen that kind of ripeness at these latitudes (over the last 10 years)

I got 1050 @ 20 and ph 3.7

Given ideal conditions, 1.050 'ish is good for about 6.3%abv which is strong enough!!

Thanks for providing the readings guys, I was quite surprised when I saw a report of 1.051 from one of the members, but it must be correct.

Those using the natural yeasts could see it finish even lower than 1.000 as that's been my experience in the past.

I got an S.G. reading of around 1.051 too.

I also did a titration test and got an acid result of about 3.5g/l which is surprisingly low, so I'll be adding some malic acid.

Thanks for organising group buy

The natural yeast foams a lot. I decanted 5l from one container and just let the other 20l do its thing in the container. Its nearly at the top now.

Thanks to all involved in arranging the group buy, 2 drums happily bubbling away this morning!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Even with 10 campden tablets in the drum showed signs of fermentation.  I transferred the juice to a fermenter this morning and added US04.  How prominent do you think the flavor from the yeast might be compared to the natural fermentation.   I thought 10 tabs would have knocked the natural yeast on the head.

Simon convinced me to leave the natural yeasts to it - I threw in some cider yeast anyway, but I assume that'll get going, and the natural yeasts will force out a ferment later.

Malic acid; is that added because it's curiously low-acidity, so it might spoil later ? Especially if it wasn't sterilized with campden tablets ?

I added the acid partly because a higher acid level will protect against infections and oxidation but also just for the purpose of taste - I want this to be a semi-sweet cider and need a decent acid level to balance that out.

I'm using campden and my own yeast. I'm not sure how it will taste when fermented to dry with a natural yeast as I've never tried that. It will be interesting to see how different peoples ciders turn out!

I didn't kill the natural yeast in any of my ferments. If you add your own yeast before the natural yeast takes hold it easily outgrows them rapidly.

It should outgrow it, but you may still end up with the super-attenuation of natural yeasts.  Interested to see how it turns out either way.

Yeah i would not reccomend leaving it too long. Id a late night the other night. Did it all when i got home.  ;D

Campden tabs are used to initially lower the pH in order to suppress the wild yeasts and other spores/fungi etc (which are less acid tolerant). The SO2  enventually leaves the cider and so the pH will rise. Malic acid is the naturally occuring acid in apples and so will lower the pH and affect the final flavour.  In the case of a Malolactic fermentation the Malic acid is converted into the softer/rounder flavoured lactic acid.

I'm starting to get complaints from the missus about the smell!

Fermenting with wild yeast and it is bubbling away nicely.

I had to move mine.. The divorce court was calling.. The entire house smelt of rotten eggs

Quote from: lordstilton on November 08, 2017, 02:03:37 PM
I had to move mine.. The divorce court was calling.. The entire house smelt of rotten eggs

I've never had this issue, first time I had a drum of AJ in 2014 I had it in me bedroom, never noticed anything.

I moved mine to the downstairs bathroom and am just blaming the smell on the kids.

Quote from: lordstilton on November 08, 2017, 02:03:37 PM
I had to move mine.. The divorce court was calling.. The entire house smelt of rotten eggs

It can be woeful.  Imagine 200 litres of the stuff in the hallway!  After blaming the cats for a few years, I had to create a warm environment in the shed for mine ;)

I rent a room out on air b&b there's scented candles lit everywhere at the minute. Theres a german guest staying at the moment, either she's very polite or she hasn't noticed yet.  ;D

Maybe it's my imagination but it seems worse than the past two years, the stink!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Seems like your sense of smell is developing.
Next stop BJCP!

So thought I would share my experience (as a newbie) with the fresh juice so far.

I added 15 campden tablets based on the PHs quoted here on the saturday the juice arrived. They were dissolved in about 300ml of cold tap water and mashed up with a sanitized pestle. I left this mixture for about 48 hours.

I then transferred this to a sanitized 30L plastic fermenting bin. I then stirred like a madman for ten minutes after hearing this was the best way to remove some of the sulphur from the campden tablets.

Next I added 5 tsp of nutrient and sprinked the nottingham yeast on top. The temp was a little low but I pitched the yeast anyways.

Today (10 days after pitching) I measured the gravity and it stands at about 1.002 and tastes very dry but fine. I'll leave it for another month or two and decide what to do with it next. I expected the gravity to drop a lot slower, has anyone else reached such a low gravity at this stage? Is it normal enough?

Cheers,
Phil

I've never used Nottingham yeast, but at room temperature, a week and a half sounds like a normal fermentation time. I used EC-1118 and it was down to 1.002 within about 6 days. I have it in carboys sitting on oak chips now.

I've had my drums stored in the utility room of my house since the 4th November. It's been cold enough in there especially during the night. I've taken the first gravity reading since I got the juice and it's currently sitting at 1018. I'm using wild yeast for fermentation. Anyone else seeing similar?

Con Traas recommended letting the wild yeast do its thing and transferring to carboy or similar "before Christmas".

No need for testing gravity or any of that crack.  It'll go down to 998 or so in the end anyway.

He said he doesn't use metabisulfate at all, but he said that, if you are to do half the recommended amount when transfering.

That's what I've done every year, and I've been happy with the results when I didn't bugger something else up. Picked up juice last Saturday, left it in drum in cold shed and had active fermentation on Monday, only light sulphur (note that this was a different batch to the group buy.) Still bubbling away happily right now.

They say that farmers make wine and engineers make beer. I think cider is more like wine that way.

Just checked my drums,

Outside, natural yeasts, no nutrients.
Nice gentle bubbling

Currently 1.018 at 10C

Corrected that's 1.017

Slight note of sulphur (H2S)

Quote from: Will_D on November 19, 2017, 01:04:26 PM
Slight note of sulphur (H2S)

Mine has a bit more than a slight note  :D :D :D

Mine has settled down now. No longer have to get the kids in trouble

Mine hasn't been touched since it arrived and was banished to the shed...first time leaving it alone to it's own devices...probably won't touch until Christmas or so...

Bottled one of my batches this evening. It has quite a bite to it I must say.  I am hoping it will tame with some time.  Down to .999

It takes a good 12 months to mellow out usually, so I wouldn't worry about the flavour right now, as long as it doesn't taste infected.

I don't believe it is infected just more sour than I would have expected.  It tastes similar to cider I made from Lidl cloudy apple juice in the past, the tartness didn't really subside over time.  I made cider using fresh apples and a small kitchen juicer last year and it didn't have the same bite to it.  So I am interested to see how this one will swing.  Anyone else had any sneaky samples yet?

Didn't mean to imply it was infected sorry :) Last year, I kegged in January and it tasted almost rubbery and quite harsh, even to the point of slightly sour. Tried some last month and there was a wonderful apple flavour to it, with some residual sweetness even though it had fermented out dry. It's amazing how much it changes.

It takes at least 12 months to mature, ideally 18; so ready for drinking in the summer. You can try sampling to make sure everything is ok, but unless you're making cider continuously throughout the year you'll never have the taste memory to be able to compare one batch to the next when it's that young.
Currently on the 2015 & it has mellowed out, still dry with lovely apple flavour & aroma. It changes every 6 months or so as the different flavour components develop & find their place.
You need to look at it like wine not beer; it's juice, not grain, a lot longer to get to it's prime.

 Re the "sour" - I rack to secondary once the main fermentation has subsided - generally at 4-6 weeks.  The cider will then be left resting on the light lees (trub) that form in the hope that a decent malolactic fermentation will occur - generally at temperatures in the high teens.  My cider always sat in those FVs until May or later before bottle conditioning.  I'm not sure the longer time in a plastic FV did the overall result any favours beyond reducing acidity. I bottled earlier last spring and I preferred the fruitier freshness - but it might just have been better juice to begin with.  I understand you guys in the AJGB got a high percentage of Dabinette juice blend which should be very good with the bit of cooker juice to add acidity.  The Dab tannins will be very pronounced ATM and will mellow out over the coming year. 

Quote from: ianm on December 04, 2017, 08:50:07 AM
I don't believe it is infected just more sour than I would have expected. 

There is also malolactic fermentation which occurs after the primary fermentation, this will allow the malic acid to be fermented to lactic acid which is a 'rounder' or 'softer' acidity/sourness.

I tasted mine a few weeks ago and it was certainly astringent, but it usually is at this stage. I'd leave a cider a minimum of three months before bottling as there's a big improvement during this time. Beyond this time the improvement is not as obvious so should be grand for drinking a few bottles. Too early and it will have a bit of a 'green' flavour to it.

I've always a mind to try playing with a malolactic fermentation but have never got around to it. I wouldn't rely on one starting by itself though as there's a high chance it won't - you can buy malolactic bacteria in the home brew shops.

I'll be sweetening my cider, but if you're going the 'natural' route and your cider is still too sour after aging it, you can just add some sugar syrup to it as you're serving it.

If you were going to add wood chips, what stage would you add them at and for how long? Also, how much wood to add to a demijohn?

It doesn't really matter when you add the chips except that you'll get a different flavour if you add them during or after fermentation. Whenever you add the chips you'll have to wait a couple of months for the 'plank of chipboard' flavour to die back!

I added mine after fermentation finished and I'd racked into glass carboys. French Medium Toast. I'd have to check later how much I added - the packet should give you a rough idea anyway.

Quote from: Water_Wolf on December 04, 2017, 07:18:10 PM
It doesn't really matter when you add the chips except that you'll get a different flavour if you add them during or after fermentation. Whenever you add the chips you'll have to wait a couple of months for the 'plank of chipboard' flavour to die back!

I added mine after fermentation finished and I'd racked into glass carboys. French Medium Toast. I'd have to check later how much I added - the packet should give you a rough idea anyway.

Thanks for that, appreciate it.

According to my notes, I used 12g of chips per 5l carboy. Last year I used 7.5g per carboy and didn't think it was enough. Your tastes may differ!

I have had mine sitting in primary since I got it. It fermented out fully within 2 weeks or so and I've taken a few samples with the tap since and it appears to be clearing up (tastes good though).

I've read numerous posts on AJ 101 about moving it to secondary and aging it. The recommendation seems to be use glass which I don't have so I'm looking at doing one of the following:

1. Leaving it in primary on the lees for another few months until im ready to bottle it
2. Syphoning it to another plastic fermenter and leaving it there for another couple of months before bottling
3. Bottling immediately

I've read: If I move it to another container I risk oxidation but it won't be sitting on the lees, aging in bulk is better than in bottles, plastic is a bad choice for aging in.

Does anyone have any recommendations on which option would be best?

Quote from: bighoppapump on January 04, 2018, 04:41:49 PM
1. Leaving it in primary on the lees for another few months until im ready to bottle it
2. Syphoning it to another plastic fermenter and leaving it there for another couple of months before bottling
3. Bottling immediately

FWIW, I've typically racked (we're wine making here) into a secondary once the primary has stopped.  If the cider is still somewhat murky, you'll still get a good fall of yeast to provide fodder for malolactic fermentation.  I've been forced to use plastic for secondary, but I'm very careful to avoid unnecessary exposure to oxygen.  I've then stored the FVs at single figure temps, bottling in Spring before things heat up.  TBH, I don't think it's a huge issue.  My worst case scenario was one summer when things got a bit mad and I didn't bottle until July - the results were still very drinkable. 

Maybe this says more about my standards than my methods.... ;)

IIWY, I'd go for Option 2.

Quote from: willk on January 04, 2018, 08:44:53 PM

FWIW, I've typically racked (we're wine making here) into a secondary once the primary has stopped.  If the cider is still somewhat murky, you'll still get a good fall of yeast to provide fodder for malolactic fermentation.  I've been forced to use plastic for secondary, but I'm very careful to avoid unnecessary exposure to oxygen.  I've then stored the FVs at single figure temps, bottling in Spring before things heat up.  TBH, I don't think it's a huge issue.  My worst case scenario was one summer when things got a bit mad and I didn't bottle until July - the results were still very drinkable. 

Thanks for the reply willk!Just wondering, are you storing it at low temps to protect it from unwanted bacteria/yeast activity?

I've read a bit on winemaking (no hands on exp though!) and have heard I should leave no headspace in fermenting vessels. I'm currently using 30L plastic fermenters so there's roughly 4-5L airspace. This doesn't seem to have caused an issue in primary, due to the co2 layer I'm guessing, but should I be concerned about this in secondary and if so any recommendations on how to compensate for it?

Ideally you should siphon the cider into glass carboys near the end of fermentation (I've got a load of 5l ones, they're pretty cheap) or just a plastic carboy if you're only going to age it a few months. You're not going to gain much by racking to another bucket with the same amount of headspace other than helping it clear a bit better at the risk of more oxidation.

So I'd vote for either bottling now or finding some other sealed containers to rack into that will not have such a large headspace.

I also add one crushed campden tablet per 5 litres when I'm racking to another carboy to reduce oxidation.

Quote from: bighoppapump on January 05, 2018, 02:28:26 PM

Thanks for the reply willk!Just wondering, are you storing it at low temps to protect it from unwanted bacteria/yeast activity?

I've read a bit on winemaking (no hands on exp though!) and have heard I should leave no headspace in fermenting vessels. I'm currently using 30L plastic fermenters so there's roughly 4-5L airspace. This doesn't seem to have caused an issue in primary, due to the co2 layer I'm guessing, but should I be concerned about this in secondary and if so any recommendations on how to compensate for it?

I ferment in almost full FVs and after racking, I top up to absolutely full with cider (I have as many as 10 on the go and I often have a few small 5L demis as well.  It can result in some wastage but generally not.  You can add boiled water to close up a small headspace, if your ABV is high enough.  You want to keep cider above 5% minimum to preserve it.  Aim for no headspace, IMO.  Storing cold because my shed is in Donegal ;)  Seriously though, it helps clear the cider and has to restrict unwanted microbial action over the winter.  I will bring it up above 15C for a period before bottling, as I suspect it encourages malolactic fermentation (if it hasn't happened already - I ferment it around 15C)

Turns out I had a film yeast (at least that's what it looks like) in primary which must have appeared after fermentation had finished! I didn't spot it as I had been taking samples from the tap at the bottom of the fermenter.

I only notices the sneaky bugger when I took the lid off after transferring it to secondary and seeing chalky white flakes on the inside walls of the bucket and on the Lees.

My secondary container had about 5 ltires of headspace so I thought I'd leave it a week there to see of the film re appeared. Sure enough it resurfaced and after moving it to the kitchen it broke into parts that sank into the fermenter. I let it settle for another day and half during which the film partially reformed.

But I used this time to read through all the cider 101 stuff related to infections and also some winemaker tips from cjj berrys book.

Putting my new knowledge to use, I syphoned  the cider from secondary though the tap to the original container the juice came in. I left about 3/4 litres behind including the part with the film yeast on top. I crushed and added 7 campden tablets and topped it up to the brim with 2l water and 5l tesco apple juice.it's now sitting in my bike shed at 8C so with any luck it's not completely ruined. Worst case scenario is Ill have plenty of cider vinegar to sell at farmer's markets!

Well hopefully the problem will go away now that you've added more sulphite and removed the big head space. Just watch out that it doesn't start fermenting again now that you've added some sugar back in via the Tesco apple juice. If it has and you don't have an airlock on it (I haven't been able to find a bung big enough yet!) then you might have to loosen the cap every so often to let some gas out.

Decided to make some use of this snow day so had a look at how my sick cider is doing. The white film yeast appears to have returned even after I filled the container up to the bottom of the neck. I tasted some of it and it still seems redeemable but I have no idea how to do this. I was thinking of racking to 3/4 seperate demijohns as I'd planned on trying some with various additions such as oak chips, fruit etc. If I take this approach how would I prevent this film yeast from re-occuring?

I'm planning adding a few campden tablets to each demijohn and then filling back up to the bottom of the necks. Should I add more packaged yeast at this stage to outcompete the film yeast? Or is this pointless as there is very little residual sugars left for them to feed on?

I'm out of ideas! But if you have some glass carboys then definitely rack into those with a bit of campden.

As you say, adding yeast won't do anything unless you add more sugar, and you might also have to aclimatise the yeast to the alcohol level too. It would kick up any remaining sediment too, so I'm not sure if it's worth the bother.

You never know, it might end up like Sherry Flor and improve the cider!

I bottled half my batch at the weekend. From the few sips I had, it's tasting nice so far - quite different to anything I've made with raw apples before, though maybe a bit 'thin'. I think a bit more aging will do it good!

Hoping to bottle this soon, it's been sitting in secondary since January. Will I need to add a little yeast to the bottling bucket?

I bottled mine two weeks ago no yeast added. Should be plenty in suspension even if it's fairly clear. Just longer to carbonate.

Are you keeping it in glass carboys for secondary? I've just kept it in standard plastic FVs until Jan/Feb but I'm curious how long you can actually take secondary fermentation in the right vessel. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

It's in glass, thought it might be a bit long to keep in plastic.

CBC1 is the best product for guaranteeing carbonation in any kind of beer or cider that's been sitting around
Rehydrate in a small solution and do a very gentle mix into your fermenter

Thanks for the advice folks!

In Con Traas's Apple Farm having one of my ciders from last year's Group Buy........the circle is complete! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180825/5741568ffe904b547fb3353f57efa29d.jpg)