Hi all,
Followng up on discussions some weeks back, vincent from Biocel has offered great prices to the club on professional disinfectants and cleaners.
I'm interested in this:
2. Peracetic Acid Based Disinfectants
Pack sizes 5 lt x 4 .
Hydrox 5 % is the product most commonly used by micro breweries & home brewing.
Recommended usage rate is 0.6 % v/v or 600 mls per 100 lt of water to give the FDA recommended level of 300 ppm for food plant sanitation.
Hydrox 5 is priced at € 34/ 5 lt.
Problem is they sell in 4x 5 litres boxes.
price for 5 litres is 41.82 including vat and shipping is 2 euros for 5 litres making it 43.82 for 5 litres.
this is 5 times cheaper than starsan and is the product that is used in milking parlours and breweries.
I am looking for three people to take 5 litre container each so we can buy a full box. The 5 litres could then be safely distributes locally into 5 x 1 litre batches ( following all safety procedures of course). That would equate to a 29.99 bottle of starsan for 8.80euro.
Comments welcome
I'd definitely be interested in a litre. Could we get some caustic while we're at it and get a reduction on price then?
NB: Peracetic Acid only has a 6 month shelf life.
Brenmurph are we going for the peracetic or the hydrox from the passage above?
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:53:48 AM
Brenmurph are we going for the peracetic or the hydrox from the passage above?
Hydrox is peracetic.
Quote from: irish_goat on August 15, 2013, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:53:48 AM
Brenmurph are we going for the peracetic or the hydrox from the passage above?
Hydrox is peracetic.
TY Goat i assumed because it was called hydrox it had sodium hydroxide in it, bit misleading of a name.
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:57:31 AM
TY Goat i assumed because it was called hydrox it had sodium hydroxide in it, bit misleading of a name.
I think it's the brand name just. http://www.hydroxlabs.com
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:53:48 AM
Brenmurph are we going for the peracetic or the hydrox from the passage above?
hydrox is the brand name for the peracetic acid base product
Quote from: Il Tubo on August 15, 2013, 11:53:25 AM
Will you bring this up at the Liffey Brewers meet tonight? I have 3/4 of a bottle of Starsan left but I'm sure others aren't so lucky!
I havnt got product that why im suggestin a buy. minimum is a box with 4 x 5 ltr containers.
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:57:31 AM
Quote from: irish_goat on August 15, 2013, 11:56:05 AM
Quote from: deadman1972 on August 15, 2013, 11:53:48 AM
Brenmurph are we going for the peracetic or the hydrox from the passage above?
Hydrox is peracetic.
TY Goat i assumed because it was called hydrox it had sodium hydroxide in it, bit misleading of a name.
its most likely a mix of hydroxide and (per)acetic acid...Modified :)
spec sheet is on its way...
go here
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/0HlAw7DArN/
click slow download and you get it
it seems (and im no chemical expert) that peracetic relates to a cross between
1 hydrogen peroxide
2 Acetic acid
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/0HlAw7DArN/ click slow download to receive
I think ciderhead is familiar with this product maybe he wil comment
:) ;) ;D :D ;D ::)
Quote from: Il Tubo on August 15, 2013, 12:29:10 PM
No, I mean will you bring up the topic.
sure will and ill print the spec sheet
I am interested in getting some of this :).
c u later in lucan we chat .
My original idea is to get 3 people + myself....... let say one from liffey, one from south and one from north county to buy a 5-lte and share it around their community what ever way suits. A litre will go an awfull long way and with starsan at 30 euros a litre it should be worth the effort to have a brewery grade product for less than a tenner
How does this perform when used with HDPE regularly though?
I've only used it with steel. Will it be okay with our plastics?
@ alex.
go here for spec sheet
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/0HlAw7DArN/
click slow download and you get it
or chat ciderhead hes the plastic expert :)
from what I know its used in farming / milking for hoses, buckets milking machines and the milking things that go on the cows, that seems like a good mix of ss plastic rubber, glass and so on so im guessin it safe on all surfaces
@irish_goat - 6 month shelf life for the undiluted product?
Quote from: onesoma on August 15, 2013, 03:12:41 PM
@irish_goat - 6 month shelf life for the undiluted product?
According to this, yeah. http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/datasheets/Data-Sheets2/Peracetic%20Acid%205%25.pdf
lads its not peracetic acid 5%
its a mix used by professional breweries, supplied by the professional suppliers who has recomended this and other products.
Heres whats in the product and it does not have a shelf life and does not deteriorate unless its stored in heat or contaminated by various contaminants ..its all clearly written in the spec.
3. Composition/information on ingredients
3.1 Type of product: Mixture
Peroxyacetic Acid
Concentration (%): 0-5
Hydrogen Peroxide
Concentration (%): 5-10
Acetic Acid
Concentration (%): 30-50
hope this helps clarify what it is...
Quote from: irish_goat on August 15, 2013, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: onesoma on August 15, 2013, 03:12:41 PM
@irish_goat - 6 month shelf life for the undiluted product?
According to this, yeah. http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/datasheets/Data-Sheets2/Peracetic%20Acid%205%25.pdf
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/AbwYTsstg7/
heres the spec sheet for the actual product in question again. Read and ye will see it is stable and does not deteriorate when stored according to the recomended method.
They have been supplying this to commercial breweries for decades. We had all this debate a few weeks back, today's post was really about who's interested in a purchase, but roll on the debate anyway :)
Chat to ye about this in the county later...looks interesting (and cheap!)
Any hope of getting some of this down south ? :(
biocel are the manufacturers down in cork. As its used extensively in dairy farming it can be got in glanbia stores as well however they only sell in 25 litres containers labeled under the brand Perfogrif
How does this perform in comparison to starsan? The beauty of starsan is you dont have to rinse. Is this stuff the same?
its all debated in the thread above and other posts...happy reading
I nice polite straight answer would have been lovely seeing as you're organising & trying to fill this group buy. Happy Friday!
apologies hop bomb....spent hours yesterday on two posts with this.
In summary of this thread:
its a no rinse in the recomended dilution 300ppm
its what many / all of the commercials use ( open to correction)
It dosnt foam, some find this a disadvantage
its 4 times cheaper than starsan if we buy 20 litres as a group
It does not go out of date after 6 months... if stored correctly it does not degrade
Like starsan, oxy action, vwp or bleach or even vinegar its got to be respected re health and safety and follow the rules
some people are concerned that its arguably dangerous in the wrong hands. I agree however hot bleach is extremly dangerous for the lungs and eyes and many dont realise that bleach should be used cold. Oxy action ( used for laundry is realy bad for skin and will disolve you skin, vwp the same I believe. so yes its a strong acid in neat concentrations but follow safety if using it
Hope this helps.
Theres a debate on another thread as well Group buys and general discussions.
Theres also a few weeks back hot debate on this.
Personally im not sure why were paying 30 euros a litre for starsan ( just realised 45 euros a litre if u buty the 8oz bottle) when we can buy commercial stuff for 40 euros a gallon.
Im not pushing a group buy I making people aware that theres an alternative there. I'll probably buy it anyway because as a drain cleaner, household sanitiser, mould / pathway killer its cheaper than anything available in the supermarket and biodegradable and ozone friendly.
Hope this helps :)
Wheres the list?
1 hydrogen peroxide
2 Acetic acid
3 johnrm
(Who are those other 2? Nooooobbbbbs)
@Bren - I should have read the thread. I just wanted a quick yes or no on the no rinse thing. Thanks for the detailed reply.
Brenmurph i would like to put myself forward for this. I don't mind a bus journey to get it wherever, however since my SE gang are incommunicado atm i don't know if anybody down here wants any. :D
Galway brewers looking for 6 litres so far (we may get more buyers yet)
@ hop bomb
Thats great, we will of course need to get it to ye if the buy goes ahead. Would ye have anyone visits this end of the country regularly? Any of ye at the BJCP course in kavanaghs?
Yes we have one member doing the BJCP course. Cheers.
ye great we met Catherine today! :) if shes willing to carry a gallon back on the bus that would be great..
Hey Guys,
I was reading the MSDS earlier and I dont mean to be the fun police or anything but I just wanted to point out how dangerous this stuff is if its not handled properly. In an earlier post I saw Hyrdox being compared to bleach so I though Id compare the first aid measures to both.
| Hydrox 5 | Bleach |
Inhalation | If inhaled: Bring accident victims out into the fresh air. If patient has difficulty in breathing, administer oxygen, keep the patient calm and warm. Call a physician immediately. | Inhalation: Remove to fresh air. If breathing is affected, call a physician |
Eye contact | In case of eye contact: Speed IS ESSENTIAL Hold the eyes open and rinse with preferably lukewarm water for a sufficiently long period of time (at least 15 minutes). In case of difficulty opening the eye lids, administer an analgesic eye wash (oxybuprocaine) Call a physician or poison centre immediately. Take victim immediately to hospital. | Eye Contact: Hold eye open and rinse with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove contact lenses, after first 5 minutes. Continue rinsing eye. Call a physician. |
Skin contact | In case of skin contact: SPEED IS ESSENTIAL After contact with skin, wash immediately with plenty of water. Apply sterile protective bandage; Call a physician or poison centre immediately. | Skin Contact: Wash skin with water for 15-20 minutes. If irritation develops, call a physician. |
Ingestion | If swallowed: If swallowed, rinse mouth with water (only if the person is conscious). DO NOT induce the patient to vomit, medical advice is required. Take the victim immediately to hospital
| Ingestion: Do not induce vomiting. Drink a glassful of water. If irritation develops, call a physician. Do not give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. |
Note how the Hydrox MSDS mentions SPEED IS ESSENTIAL and to call a physician immediately. Also, note under ingestion it is mentioned that medical advice is required.
I've dealt with both hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid (albeit in higher concentrations) before and they are quite dangerous. At the low concentration the hydrogen peroxide shouldnt be too bad, however one thing to note about hydrogen peroxide is that it can be a little explosive. I recall one time spilling some 70% acetic acid on the floor, and as well as fuming (which caused asphyxiation), it also ate through a reinforced concrete floor ( This did happen over a period of a couple of days so I really should have cleaned up that spill in a timely manner).
Saying all that if handled correctly then Hydrox 5 should be safe enough. Main things to note from the MSDS
- Keep in a well ventilated area
- Keep in a bund if possible
- Keep away from heat sources
- When you are diluting to the proportions you want for sanitising ensure to wear safety glasses, gloves, and an apron. Also, try to ensure that you do not have any skin exposed in case of splashes.
If you plan on splitting it into smaller quantities then ensure you are using the correct container materials. Steel coated, polyethylene, reinforced polyester, glass.
If you are planning on working with this chemical Id highly suggest reading through the MSDS paying particular attention to Section 4.0 First aid measures, Section 6 accidental release measures, Section 7 Handling and storage Section 8.2 Exposure controls.
Interesting post and sorry to be stupid but what's a MSDS and where do you find it?
Also, what's a bund?
The debate goes on..
Appreciate all the safety info.
The concentration we are considering purchasing is 35% and of course like any chemical needs to follow safety advice.
Can someone compare to starsan, if anyone has not seen it its worth seeing it.
Ive already commented etensively on this topic on about 6 threads over the past months.
Starsan needs exactly the same caution, read the safety sheet if u are using starsan, bl;each, oxy action, its all the same re safety. Oxy action from Lidl causes terrible skin damage if wet powder hists skin.....and thats sold in lidl, hot bleach inhaled can kill u and thats sold in every corner shop.
I agree with the above post. with hydrogen peroxide NEAT :o however in diluted form its almost harmless to humans and maybe even beneficial 8). So the issue is with the neat stuff whatever the chemical is.
This stuff is also available in 7%...whats the safety opinions on 7% version? This means it goes around 5 times less. is it still hazardous at this level re its small explosive potential and so on?
For peoples information as this topic will roll on as the club grows. For those many of you who think starsan is as safe as washing up liquid read below and note the close similarities with the HYdrox above.
I am highlighting this because the debate on the danger of Hydrox and or Hydrogen peroxide rolls on and I agree fully, I cant recall how many times Ive emphasised this, however I have not seen one reference to the fact that starsan ( available in the shops) needs as much caution....see the txt below.... is from the manufacturers site.
Starsan is Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid and Phosphoric acid in high concentrations..heres its safety sheet:
DANGER:
Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in
ey
es, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid contamination of
food. DO NOT MIX STAR SAN
WITH CHLORINATED CLE
ANERS AS CHLORINE GA
S WILL RESULT
. Do not use or
store near heat or open flame. See label for more precaut
ionary information.
FIRST AID:
For Eyes
: Hold eyes open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15
-
20 minutes. Remove contact
lenses, if present, after the first five minutes. Then continue rinsing. Call Poison Control Center or doctor
for treatme
nt advice.
If Swallowed
: Call Poison Control Center or doctor immediately for treatment advice. Have person sip
on a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce vomiting unless told to do so by the Poison Control
doctor. Do not give anything to an
unconscious person.
If on Skin or Clothing:
Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately with plenty of water for
15
-
20 minutes. Call Poison Control Center for treatment advice.
If Inhaled
: Move person to fresh air. If person is not breath
ing call 911 or an ambulance, then give
artificial respiration, preferably mouth
-
to
-
mouth if possible. Call a Poison Control Center or doctor for
treatment.
NOTE TO PHYSICIAN:
Probable mucosal damage may contraindicate the use of gastric lavage.
Measure
against circulatory shock, respiratory depression and convulsion may be needed.
An MSDS is a Material Safety Data Sheet. It contains information about the chemical composition of a substance and gives information on the safe use, personal protective equipment required, storage info, transportation info, etc. MSDS's are be used a lot in industrial settings when dealing with any chemicals. You can find the MSDS for pretty much anything on google. For example
Fairy liquid MSDS http://www.trusthygiene.co.uk/Health%20&%20Safety%20Data%20Sheets%20-%20PDF/02766%20-%20Fairy%20Washing%20Up%20Liquid.pdf
Starsan MSDS http://www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf
A bund is basically a drip tray. Its used to ensure your chemicals dont start staining the floor or eating through the floor if they drip. http://safetystoragesystems.co.uk/spill-trays.php
Starsan looks safe enough, although its definitely not as safe as washing up liquid. However, saying that I wouldnt recommend that anybody drinks either, or puts them in their eyes. It does say on the MSDS for Starsan that you should wear gloves and safety glasses when you are using it in its concentrated form. If its diluted to the <300ppm concentration then Id say its pretty harmless. The worst thing about starsan would be the phosphoric acid. Ive dealt with this in its concentrated form though and its not too bad if you spill it on yourself i.e. You wouldnt get an acid burn or anything but it does give a rash. In relation to the Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid, heres an interesting MSDS for a washing up liquid http://foynes.sfpc.ie/intranet/wp-content/uploads/msds/Total%20Cleaning%20Supplies/Clean%20n%20Fresh%20Lemon%20Washing%20up%20Liquid%20MSDS.pdf. Its got Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Aaicd at 10% concentration. Probably shouldnt ingest that washing up liquid.
I love how that MSDS for Clean n Fresh washing up liquid says that if the soap gets on your skin you must wash your skin thoroughly with soap and water... *facepalm*
Also instructions on what to do if it spontaneously bursts into flames. haha, I can imagine it.
Quote from: BrewCity on August 30, 2013, 10:36:45 PM
Also instructions on what to do if it spontaneously bursts into flames.
It would make for an interesting experiment!
Quote from: jus223 on August 30, 2013, 10:29:05 PMThe worst thing about starsan would be the phosphoric acid.
C'mon there's phosphoric acid in Coke. :D :D
The other thing I notice is that the MSDS says that concentrated starsan has ph of 1 - does that mean that it's suitable for acid washing if diluted 1 part star san to 9 parts water?
QuoteQuote from: jus223 on Today at 10:29:05 pm
The worst thing about starsan would be the phosphoric acid.
C'mon there's phosphoric acid in Coke. :D :D
Thats probably why its such a good cleaner :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RRHkVNx-3c
QuoteThe other thing I notice is that the MSDS says that concentrated starsan has ph of 1 - does that mean that it's suitable for acid washing if diluted 1 part star san to 9 parts water?
If you are talking about acid washing yeast then I am not sure if Star san would be entirely useful. The Dodecylbenzesulfonic acid might get in the way. Its worth a try but Im not sure what the quantities you'd have to dilute it too. My chemistry calculations are very poor nowadays.
Quote from: mr happy on August 30, 2013, 11:00:13 PM
Quote from: jus223 on August 30, 2013, 10:29:05 PMThe worst thing about starsan would be the phosphoric acid.
C'mon there's phosphoric acid in Coke. :D :D
Theres h2o2 ( hydrogen peroxide) in the atmosphere as well but not at 35%...
the concentration / levels make the difference :)
I know nothing about chemistry but I understand that ph is a logarithmic scale so diluting 1 to 10 should push you from 1 to 2?
I'm curious about your comment in relation to the Dodecylbenzesulfonic acid, why would it get in the way?
@brenmurph - totally appreciate your point about concentration, just having a bit of banter.
I Know ;D
Reading a soda recipe book called Fix the Pumps at the moment about early 20th century soda parlours - back when cola was full of cocaine and hard liquor. It talks a lot about a genre of soft drinks called phosphates that had phosphoric acid as an ingredient, so I couldn't resist.
Dis yis know that H2O2 @ 3% is used in numerous ways as a skin treatment, cancer treatment, vegetable treatment.. and its also one of the most popular municipal water treatments worldwide? Albeit argued by the medical profession as to its safety...
..and people put a 5% acetic acid solution on their chips!
see....once diluted its pretty harmless to humans...the neat studd is rightly what the concern would be.. its not a big issue...there are far more dangerous things in ur house.....its just about being sensible when there are genuine cautions with a product :)
QuoteI'm curious about your comment in relation to the Dodecylbenzesulfonic acid, why would it get in the way?
Dodecylbenzesulfonic acid is a surfactant. Im no microbiologist but I think that surfactants can affect the cell walls of yeast cells.
I have the package.
If there is a large crater reported on the news tomorrow night in the middle of the N7 smelling of roasted malt and toilet cleaner, tell them not to bother with the embalming fluid it won't be necessary.
Have u got the ratchet straps to strap it down in the boot, maybe it would have been safer to bring the trailer to cork and put some orange flashing lights on it just in case it leaks and ruinsssssss our lovely grain comes out through the rust hole it will make in ur boot and disolve a crater in the m7 which will cause an earthquake and fllood the country:) ;) ;D holy god. ???...wat have we gotten into :-[ :o
Quote from: brenmurph on September 13, 2013, 07:16:33 AM
Have u got the ratchet straps to strap it down in the boot, maybe it would have been safer to bring the trailer to cork and put some orange flashing lights on it just in case it leaks and ruinsssssss our lovely grain comes out through the rust hole it will make in ur boot and disolve a crater in the m7 which will cause an earthquake and fllood the country:) ;) ;D holy god. ???...what have we gotten into :-[ :o
LOL. This is why I love this forum!
Yes the H2o2 is on the way but it will be a week or two before all the technical stuff is sorted. H2o2 when diluted pproperly can be used as an effective household disinfectant and more besides. Bleach should be a thing of the past. H2o2 at retail concentrations is safe and effective. Will have more info soon. Because its a cleaner as well it will be an effective overnight soaker.
Keep an eye on this post for updates
@ Homebrewest
Sorry Homebrewwest for doin ye outa starsan trade on this group buy H2o2 thingy, but starsan seems to be in stock and then outa stock, its expensive @ 30 euros a litre and so on. There is another starsan type product I see you have in stock.. a bit cheaper than starsan is it a more reliable supply? H2o2 is available in a 7% and 3% solution which seem to fall outside of hazardous territory for retail supply.
I'm continuing with Star San as 1 bottle lasts 1 year and I don't trust myself :)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
u musnt do much brewin! so :) I can appreciate starsan lasts a year but read on its not about the money..........thats a bonus
another viewpoint and the real reason Im so interested in it....that i havnt mentioned yet :P
well the way I see it is its not for brewing, its a toilet cleaner, vegetable washer, kitchen spray, dog bowl sanitiser to kill slug viruses, its a polytunnel mould preventer, a quail hen pen demoulder ( mould kills quails) and anti viral, its a multipurpose cleaner, mould from pathway remover and thats the tip of the iceberg...
and moreso its prevents having to use or buy bleach which is a disaster for the environment and for personal health. H2o2 is 100% biodegradable in a very short time 12 hrs perhaps, is non toxic to anything except moulds, virusus, bacteria and fungi and at 500ppm is safe for humans and is extremely cheap probably 100 or more times cheaper than bleach which I hate >:(
In contrast bleach appears to be still in our rivers, lakes and sea weeks or months after we flush it down the loo and as for the air, thats a long story the ozone is in a mess it seems.
all in all Im proceding with my research for sure and will have a workable, safe, effective solution to this debate which is 100% ozone friendly :) ;) :D ;D and ye will thank me for it in due course :P
The issues with h2o2 is the neat industrial form, hence ive spent over a month talking to several chemists, will..d, jus123 several chemical reps and so on.....Ill keep ye updated
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 13, 2013, 01:09:28 PM
I'm continuing with Star San as 1 bottle lasts 1 year and I don't trust myself :)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
just checkin cider is it a one litre bottle (32oz @ 30 euros) or the little one (8oz @ 12 euros) that lasts you a year?
For me the small one is going to last me several years, I make up 5L at a time and reuse it for up to 3 brews. I use Oxy for cleaning.
If I didn't have so much of it left I would be considering going in on your GB.
Its not a formal group buy :) btw, Im judging whos interested in an alternative to starsan. If an 8oz bottle lasts for years there is no reason to change at all. . I was trying to figure how many brews u do in years....a lot less than us id say.. Im on my 3rd mash this week and ive another brewday on sunday :) ;) :D ;D and as I said a couple posts back there are tons of uses for h2o2 around the house where starsan would not be as economical like fecking a gallon down the toilet and so on
Again im aware starsan as a final sanitiser in brewing is economical, h2o2 has so many more advantages and besides as i said a gizillion times none of the breweries ( that im aware of) use starsan they (as far as im aware) use h2o2 :)
roll on the debate and as mentioned a post or two ago..I will have a workable solution in a couple weeks that is safe, effective and cheap alternative that is a safe effective and cheap ( very cheap ) household all in one cleaner and steriliser that can eliminate a dozen or more household chemicals in one swoop, especially the toxic bleach :D
Yeah I like the fact that it can also be used as a cleaner, particularly for cleaning bottles where oxy leaves a residue but perhaps this solution does not? I would nearly get it for that application alone!
Cough!
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/13/yguhyga6.jpg)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
And btw it does not expire in 6 months closer to 6 years by my research. For another debate!
I am also interested in this for the same reasons as Brenmurph, i want an all round kill all the germs but safe for humans sanitizer as well. I keep a few chickens and need something on a weekly basis that wont poison them and the enviroment, i have a dog that sleeps in the kitchen which requires cleaning on a daily basis (the kitchen not the dog),bathrooms,showers etc etc.
He is also bang on about the dangers of bleach versus peroxide, after all the peroxide even at 35% conc. or whatever it is, is NOT going to jump out of the bottle all by itself and burn everything in sight. Also +1 on the use by date, that's just to boost sales.
Its more like for guarantee purposes coz the manufacturer cant be sure the end user stored it optimumly. Say you keep in a warm shed in a clear container, in sunlight itll probably last 6 months :)
I agree with the boost sales bit, the chemist who made said its more like 6 years than 6 months.
Carbon ( the supplier) state:
"Chemical stability: Stable under normal handling and storage conditions. Commercial solutions ( which we have) are stabilised to reduce the risk of decomposition by contamination"
Evonix, major American manufacturer, quote on their stabilised h2o2
"With normal handling and cool storage, and when the necessary precautionary measures are observed, the losses of hydrogen peroxide are very slight even during extended periods (years) of storage"
so Ive also found out that when diluted to 3% shelf life is years as well if using RO or distilled water. In the domestic bottle of diluted stuff (600: 1 dilution / 500ppm) the shelf life is several weeks in a dark bottle stored cool.
Im still working on it and will keep ye informed. I have the stuff here in Kildare now and am playing ( safely) with the pros and cons of it and researching the best way to get this distributed with low ( non hazordous) risk, while being very economical and most importantly as EFFECTIVE or greater than Starsan.
Chemistry lesson tonight.
Thanks to John RM & cider for helping get the h2o2 experiment / research under way.
Been spending a long time on this one and will spend a lot more.
First experiment was to assess if this stuff works in such a tiny tiny concentration. To put it into context I put 0.8 of a ml in a 500ml spray bottle this is a 600 times dilution as per the Carbon chemist's recomendation. Carbon already diluted their neat h2o2 by over 3 times thats a 2000 times dilution in water...unbelieveable that this well watered solution is of any use but read on
Ok so I learned through my own research how this stuff kills microrganisms.
H2o2 is everywhere, we humans produce it, its in the air. Bacteria and spores produce catalayse as a defence mechanism agains their potential oxidation (death) through natural levels of h2o2 that is everywhere. H2o2 at concentrations of 500ppm oxidases catalyse and then the microrganisms cant protect themselves. Bit like suncream to protect us from sun. No sun cream means our skin oxidises and dies hence it peels and fallsoff.
Ok So the experiment to test the Power of h2o2.
Potatoes produce catalyse just like microrganisms and when a potato is in contact with h2o2 in the mix we are looking at (diluted 2000 times) have a look at the pics below.
20 seconds in the solution and the potato is getting fried :) ;) :D ;D just as the bacteria, yeast, virus, fungus, mould spore would.
re shelf life in the bottle. i will be leavin a solution of diluted stuff in a bottle and trying this test next week and the week after. to eliminate the rumours that h2o2 goes off, I will prove them wrong because as I know from my own scientific research, h2o2 is stable when handles and stored properly and does not go off overnight.
And just in case you think this is an acid dissolving the potato its not. Its oxidation, a natural process. The solution in the pics below is 100% non toxic, can be handled spilled and even rubbed on skin without any negative effect.
Hope you enjoyed this lesson.
A potato! Do you not have and lab mice that would like a swim? ;)
I have to say that does look promising.
Is there something about breathable corks too that we need to look at?
The mice would happily swim arond in this 0.0016% solution.... all it will do is kill the bugs in their fur :) ;D
One of the problems is the supplier wont let out their secrets, all I know is the product is "stabilised" which means its protected against decomposition following contact with contaminants and heat / light and so on. Decomposition of h2o2 produces 02 as per pics and this created pressure in the vessel which could be potentially dangerous. The packaging in "food grade" or unstabilised h2o2 needs a steel coated polyester container to take pressure. However the stabilised is in 5 litre PE container.
Stored and handled properly theres no need for a breathable cap, another myth.
The reason I needed this and other experiments is cos I want to see the shelf life of the final diluted household product (spray bottle) and the shelf life of the diluted 35% neat stuff down to 3% or 7% and play it from there.
Ive use this stuff last night around kitchen sink drain holes, around toilet seat and so on, it works, incredilbly well at 600 times dilution, ( 2000 : 1 dilution from pure h2o2) at same time its non toxic and absolutely safe in this form.
It fizzes when it hits anything microbial and its obvious. Dosnt affect anything else. remember this is not an acid based cleaner its an oxidiser in the presence of microbes. First post tries explain the miracle, which I believe h2o2 is based on the evidence that has been around since the year splash. Its too cheap thats why the supermarkets are full of breach based cleaners, except in America where h2o2 seems to be popular as a general safe and effective all Rounder
Carbon are working on an odourless surfactant to directly replace starsan asa ano-rinse sanitiser that foams. at present it foams in contact with microbes which is prob even better because it shows where u havnt cleaned quite well enough :)
Bren, you are sizing up to a Masters here ;D
I already have a masters (M.Sc. in Exercise & Nutrition ) and when u get to that level theres no rational to do another because you understand how to research and debate with a scientific rational for what u do and say.....
I like to research and break myths...and theres many to break out there...thats why Kildare County Council call me the KCC's Nutrition Expert and keep giving me more work, cos when people hear and accept the truth they get great results and keep wanting more :)
Dr Murphy it is so:)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
Said Im a Master of Science not a PHD hed...so brenmurph will do :) ;)
And i am a Master Of Disaster ;D
What? I thought that was that Deadman fellow...
Quote from: johnrm on September 14, 2013, 07:30:21 PM
What? I thought that was that Deadman fellow...
So it is old bean :P
Brenmurph have you fallen into the peracetic acid vat or what? :P
I wonder is it worth resurrecting this topic?
Interest might be greater this time of the year.
Or maybe start new list?
Min order 20 litres? anybody?
Greg, never took peracetic very far. I actually produced an irish manufacured starsan type product the only diffrence is that u need less coz its strongr and its a lot cheeper. There was virtually no interest. People were obviusly happy to pay 6 times the price. Im glad to say ive been using my own product for 6 months now and our beer goes from strenth to strength .
Alex ive recontacted my manufacturer re a new batch. To buy i wil need committment from regions to buy a 5 litre and distribute locally
Quote from: brenmurph on May 13, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
Alex ive recontacted my manufacturer re a new batch. To buy i wil need committment from regions to buy a 5 litre and distribute locally
Galway Brewers will take 5 litres for starters!
Galway Brewers will take 5 litres for starters!
South Central will take 5 liters for seconders!
1. Galway Brewers will take 5 litres for starters!
2. South Central will take 5 liters for seconders!
3. Rebel Brewers - 5l
Ok folks thanks for the interest which is more positive than before.
I am renegociating to see if we can get a batch manufacured. Will report back soon
I'll grab one for capital
1. Galway Brewers will take 5 litres for starters!
2. South Central will take 5 liters for seconders!
3. Rebel Brewers - 5l
4. Capital brewers - 5l
1. Galway Brewers will take 5 litres for starters!
2. South Central will take 5 liters for seconders!
3. Rebel Brewers - 5l
4. Capital brewers - 5l
5.Carlow Brewers Brewer 1l :)
Glad to see progress going.
Are you talking the sanstar clone Bren?
Rough price? I'm sure the NCB boys will take some. I can repack!
Quote from: Will_D on May 14, 2014, 11:24:36 AM
Are you talking the sanstar clone Bren?
Rough price? I'm sure the NCB boys will take some. I can repack!
+1
Everyone better hold on your existing starsan bottles for refill.
They are perfect for dosing.
How much for five liters Bren?
Carbon chemicals in cork are working on it for me this week. If I can do a good deal I will put it out for comments.
I will and get back to ye. later in the week.
I would like to refer ye back to the original post http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=3535.msg43357#msg43357
This was peracetic acid that I had confirmed at a great price and no one jumped at it.
The Starsan type product is not made by Biocel ( the other company I researched with) it is made by Carbon, cork. So re the title, 6 times cheaper. refers to peracetic acid as in the original post.
When I have price on the current product in question I willl follow up and keep yye up to date
Curious, whats the advantages of this stuff over peracetic?
Starsan has a surfactant ( soap) that clings to surfaces. Other products maybe more useful for pumping through hoses, vessels, or for soakage of parts and so on. Theres a lot of info back to the start of this thread as well
Paracetic also very quickly takes layers of skin off ??? I've learned the hard way-if you don't wash it off straight away even after a quick dip of the arm IT BURNS later. Always wear chemical glove for ANY thing other than water or beer!!
Any idea how much yet?
At least 3 times cheaper than starsan!
Quote from: brenmurph on July 18, 2014, 10:19:30 PM
At least 3 times cheaper than starsan!
Can you get your hands on some? Just coming to the end of my bottle of starsan.
We shud hav nxt week or so
Quote from: psham on July 18, 2014, 10:39:57 PM
Quote from: brenmurph on July 18, 2014, 10:19:30 PM
At least 3 times cheaper than starsan!
Can you get your hands on some? Just coming to the end of my bottle of starsan.
+1