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Decoction Mashing

Started by irish_goat, January 18, 2018, 03:01:49 PM

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irish_goat

Been thinking about this and doing a bit of reading. My understanding was that it was a technique developed in the days of poorer quality malt to convert more starches and also to allow for step mashing. If I am using a braumeister, and thus have no need for help with step mashing, is there anything to be said for simply boiling the a thick portion of the mash grains at the end of the mash and adding them into the sparge or something similar. Reason I ask is because it's a nightmare to open the malt pipe to get at the grain during a mash with a braumeister/grainfather etc.

The reason I want do a decoction at all is that Gordon Strong recommends it for wheat beers to get that proper, Bavarian mouthfeel.

johnrm

As well as Ulster, Denny Conn says No!

I recall Denny saying on Basic Brewing or Brew Strong that Decoction mashing is not required and does nothing more for you than a bit of Melanoidin malt will do.
While it is a traditional method, its a lot of effort/messing/takes time and therefore cost.

You can stop the program in BM and I'm sure GF also.
On the 2014 model BM (old one) Pressing Up and Down at the same time halts the program.
I think you have a big shiny fancy shmancy BM - Not sure how on that one so RTFM.

You may need to raise the pipe on the stirrup to remove top plate and mesh.
Once off, scoop out with a ladle.

Alternatively (Risky!)
Stop the pump, remove wing-nut and bar.
Start the pump.
Stop as soon as the plate is accessible.
You might need a helper!

irish_goat

Didn't realise I could stop the program like that. Still think it's a lot of effort taking the wing nut and bar out etc.

Have found this post now that you've mentioned melanoidin malt though and it seems to agree with Denny too. http://nateobrew.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/triple-decoction-vs-no-sparge.html

nigel_c

Boiling some of your first runnings will also have a similar result.
Not sur how it would work with a tea bag setup.

Tom

I've tried decoction and I've tried just adding in a portion of dark wheat malt. Just add dark wheat malt and be done with it.
Then you've got some time to spend worrying about your yeast and ferm. temps. :D Can't wait to taste!

HomeBrewWest

See here:
https://byo.com/article/decoction-mashing-techniques/

Melanoidins discussed, but interesting info as to why tannins are low too (to do with ph on a heavy wort).
"I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts, and beer." Abraham Lincoln. www.homebrewwest.ie

Aksarben

Decoction mashing does a little extra something, a Maillard reaction.  Proteins and sugars are "cooked' and release special flavors not found in non cooked.  Take toast.  Just bread and you could slowly heat it to dry it out and it's still bread, but dry... no extra flavor.  Now "toast" it in the toaster.  Notices how the difference changes? 

I seem to read somewhere that a lot of Munich Dunkels are decoction mashed because of the flavor profile arrived by the taking some of the mash and cooking it, even though the malted barley is fully modified.    It's a cooking thing.  Same reason we also boil the wort, to not only decrease volume and DMS (as it is volatile and boils off), but also because of the flavor profile that may be missed if not boiled well.

Just my 2 cents..... :)
Vern
I was born with nothing and have managed to keep most of it.

biertourist

Quote from: Aksarben on March 28, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
Decoction mashing does a little extra something, a Maillard reaction.  Proteins and sugars are "cooked' and release special flavors not found in non cooked.  Take toast.  Just bread and you could slowly heat it to dry it out and it's still bread, but dry... no extra flavor.  Now "toast" it in the toaster.  Notices how the difference changes? 

I seem to read somewhere that a lot of Munich Dunkels are decoction mashed because of the flavor profile arrived by the taking some of the mash and cooking it, even though the malted barley is fully modified.    It's a cooking thing.  Same reason we also boil the wort, to not only decrease volume and DMS (as it is volatile and boils off), but also because of the flavor profile that may be missed if not boiled well.

Just my 2 cents..... :)

I agree with Aksarben on this one.

There is a malty flavor and smooth "fullness" of mouthfeel that you get from a decoction.

The Malliard reactions and products (Melanoidins) are a huge FAMILY of reactions and byproducts.  They're VERY complicated reactions and different byproducts have different flavors especially at different concentration levels.

Brew a regular bock and then brew the same beer again with a super simple decoction. (Wait until after your infusion mash is already complete and then pull 30% of the grain (leave most the liquid behind) and bring it up to a boil while stirring- boil for 15 minutes while stirring continuously and add it back to the main mash as a "mash out" step. Then try both side-by-side and tell me they're the same.


Darker beers typically have longer decoction boils and the differences are more pronounced.
For a Munich Dunkel, a dark bock, or a dark dopple bock, I'd definitely recommend a decoction.



I read all the theory and then did a decoction with a 20 min single decoction for a dark bock and then I could just throw all the theory out the window because there's a definite difference.

For light-colored beers and short boils on the decoction, I don't think it's "worth it", but my bocks get decocted now.


Adam

Samael

Quote from: johnrm on January 18, 2018, 04:25:08 PM
a bit of Melanoidin malt will do.

How much % in grain bill? Found source which says ounce per 19l is that what You meant "a bit" ? ?
..::Tomasz::..

Sebastian

I'll be doing Dreimaischverfahren on a grainfather after fermenter becomes free.  I don't see it a big deal and can't wait to do it.  The plan for 12plato böhemisches pils :

Mash in 35c 10m
Heat up to 45c 15m
Decoct bring to 72c for 10m and then boil 10m
54c for 15m and Decoct 72c 10 min and boil 10m
62c 30m and more liquid Decoct 72c 10m and boil 10m
72c 20m and mash out 78c 10m

Boil 90 or 120m haven't decided yet. 3 portions of saaz and into fermenter.

That's the plan anyway. Plenty of work but I do like classic approach.

There is great German book really worth reading if you know German.

Sent from my S61 using Tapatalk


johnrm

Quote from: Samael on March 25, 2019, 06:31:12 AM
Quote from: johnrm on January 18, 2018, 04:25:08 PM
a bit of Melanoidin malt will do.

How much % in grain bill? Found source which says ounce per 19l is that what You meant "a bit" ? ?
I would be googling to find out.
Wait. I can't. I have a Huawei. ;)

johnrm

I never really got back to this Samael, sorry.

According to the article below, 2% or so Melanoidin is adequate.
I guess more will give you more flavour.

https://beerandbrewing.com/how-to-get-decoction-results-without-actually-doing-a-decoction-mash/#:~:text=While%20some%20recipes%20call%20for,subtle%20flavors%20in%20your%20beer.

TheSumOfAllBeers

While a decoction produces melanoidins in large quantities it does a lot more chemistry than this.

While you can substitute the melanoidin in from a malt where these reactions are done for you, this will not bring in the other chemistry too. On that basis melanoidin malt is not a substitute for decoction.

I think it will get you pretty close (and I have some melanoidin to play with for my next few lagers).