Making invert sugar

[cruiscinlan]

Whats the price of a kilo of Siucra? Last I saw it was 1.35 as kilo.

Ohhh droppin' brandnames! I'm just talking about own brands. Cheapest in aldi/lidl is caster at €1.09 at the moment.

Luckily JC's in Swords are selling Gem or Tatel&Lyle for 0.99c. (It used to be 0.89 and was once 0.79 in the last 6 months)

Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.

Inverting sugar by simple acid hydrolysis is WAY different to making Candi sugar!!

I wouldn't expect a homebrewer making it on the once-off to match the economics of an industrial process of course.  But this is precisely why I'm wondering why the industrially produced product is so expensive, its up there or dearer than the prices of specialty malts like malted oats, rye, maris otter etc.

And the question I've asked hasn't been answered, if sugar is a 'cheap adjunct' why is it dearer than malt?     

[johnrm]

All sugar is imported would be part of the reason.
We used to have a thriving sugar beet industry but the government at the time shut this down completely in 2006.
This impacted jobs, economy and cost of sugar.
In 2010 they discovered that this was unnecessary.

[oblivious]

Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.

Can I ask, what source of Lime did you use, something food grade or just generic?

[Ciaran]

some old British recipes (Ron Pattinson etc.) with invert sugar in them

Why are you making it? Golden syrup is inverted sugar syrup.

I've just bought a copy of Ron Pattinsons book myself, and although I've not brewed any of the recipes yet, I've been wondering if it's necessary / worth it making invert sugar.  It seems there's 3 or 4 different types which I doubt I'd be bothered enough to try and recreate.  So considering just using golden syrup for all of them as I'm not too bothered about creating the exact historical beer.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html

Reading some of the comments, it sounds like a mix of mainly golden syrup and some honey makes a reasonable approximation.

[Will_D]

Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.

Can I ask, what source of Lime did you use, something food grade or just generic?

Yes it was FG (from e-pray) pretty cheap - you don't need a lot!

[cruiscinlan]

Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.

How did you get your hands on sugar beet?  Cheapest sugar I've seen is Gem in Tops and Pops for €1 for 1kg.   

One source in the UK for brewing sugars is http://ragus.co.uk/, I'll if I can get any joy out of them.

[Will_D]

How did you get your hands on sugar beet?  Cheapest sugar I've seen is Gem in Tops and Pops for €1 for 1kg.   

I grew it from seed in the garden and the club!

Probably broke the law on Irish Sugar Beet production (that is about to or has already expired?) when the EU paid .ie to stop growing beet sugar as there was a EU surplus. Only trouble was some bean counter couldn't count his fekin beans and got the decimal point wrong!

It IS much easier to buy Candi sugar from Belgium!

[jceg316]

I followed this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2m6i_VSRbI and made some candi sugar. I didn't boil for 15 mins as advised though as I got bored halfway through and finished it early which was probably a mistake. I still put it in my beer though and beer came out fine.I will have to make it again as my HBS didn't have any clear candi sugar but this time will be more patient.

[cruiscinlan]

I've read so much competing information on this I've decided to get Brewer's Invert no.s 2 & 3 to see.  Given the relatively high price of sugar compared to malt, you would think there has to be an element or extra dimension it adds.  But either way I'll report back.

[Ciaran]

some interesting information here
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824

seems easy enough to make using lemon juice as a citric acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup#Inverting_sugar

Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid per kilogram of sugar.[5] (Lemon juice is 5% to 6% citric acid, with a negligible amount of ascorbic acid, so this would correspond to about 20 grams of lemon juice per kilogram of sugar.) Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram)[5] or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[5] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.

[oblivious]

some interesting information here
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824

seems easy enough to make using lemon juice as a citric acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup#Inverting_sugar

Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid per kilogram of sugar.[5] (Lemon juice is 5% to 6% citric acid, with a negligible amount of ascorbic acid, so this would correspond to about 20 grams of lemon juice per kilogram of sugar.) Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram)[5] or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[5] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.

But that's not the same as the belgian stuff. They use beat sugar which has been through a strong NaOH (strong base) wash and has residual amino acid from the beets. This is what give the flavour, high pH protects  the reducing sugars prevent burning and allows flavor development, through  maillard reactions with the sugar and amino acids .

[johnrm]

Threads here on Sugar Inversion/Conversion (Perversion?)...
http://goo.gl/dKZIB0
http://goo.gl/3CbsVl

Heres a good resource on it...
http://goo.gl/Gb0sqL

[cruiscinlan]

But that's not the same as the belgian stuff. They use beat sugar which has been through a strong NaOH (strong base) wash and has residual amino acid from the beets. This is what give the flavour, high pH protects  the reducing sugars prevent burning and allows flavor development, through  maillard reactions with the sugar and amino acids .

I'm not entirely sure that its the beetroot that gives the particular character, but rather the processing, can you really recreate maillard reactions at home?

I'm not saying you can't invert a sugar, just that the result is not Brewing Sugar or Belgian Candi. 

[Will_D]

The sugar beet provides complex nitrogen rich proteins and amino acids that react during the hydrolysis process.

If you use refined sugar (cane or beet) then you can add some inorganic wine yeast nutrients (Diammonium Phosphate and Ammonium Sulpahate) to up the pH and also supply some Nitrogen

[oblivious]

I'm not entirely sure that its the beetroot that gives the particular character, but rather the processing, can you really recreate maillard reactions at home?

Yeah its nothing to do with flavour just residual source of nitrogen and the NaOH wash. As will has said people add Diammonium Phosphate to try over come this. Other nitrogen/ amino acid sources may give different results

I'm not saying you can't invert a sugar, just that the result is not Brewing Sugar or Belgian Candi.

More of a culinary invert syugar