National Homebrew Club Ireland

I've attempted two BIAB brews in my PECO boiler this year and I've manged to burn both of them!

The first was a raspberry wheat where I put raspberries into the boil. The wort smelt burnt and tasted burnt. After fermentation it tasted like cigarette ashes. It got dumped. The element was black and I had to chip the stuff off with a plastic scraper - I got most of it off.

The second was a standard IPA. The wort smelt and tasted okay but after fermentation it had a funky burnt taste (it smelt lovely though!) It's still sitting in bottle and isn't as bad as the raspberry wheat but still undrinkable for me (might be able to hand it off to some less discerning drinkers).

After the IPA boil, the element ended up covered in solid black carbonised stuff that I can't get off. I don't think it was in contact with the grain - I use an IKEA stainless steel cutlery drainer around it - but I can't be 100% sure. I think it is more likely to be happening during the boil.

I've decided that life is too short to waste my time making more burnt beer so I've ordered a new element. The question is, how do I prevent this happening again? My first few beers turned out okay using the PECO boiler, it's only this year that's been a disaster.

Is it an inherent issue with a PECO boiler over time? Is the combination of sugary liquid and hot element always going to result in a certain amount of burning?

Stir.
When you apply heat to wort -  stir.  Until you achieve a boil - stir. 

I went through a few burnt batches.  Sometimes,  the flavour didn't come through till after fermentation.  And it doesn't ease with time (still have some bottles for over a year,  just to see what happens to the taste).
The trick is to keep the wort agitated when the element is on.  Low density elements will help.
I used citric acid and elbow grease to clean the elements with the black carbon.   And after the few burnt batches,  I was very attentive to cleaning the elements after each use ( tesco/argos elements. Always had a few spare,  so would switch them out). Get the toothbrush out!

(I had many theories as to why was getting burnt carbon,  from mineral deposits on the element attracting grist particles, to too fine a crush,  to a particular variety of pale malt,  but once I stired during heating,  things were fine.  Have since upgraded to a lwd element,  but still constantly stir. )

Interesting. I never stir, but I do clean my elements thoroughly after every batch. I wonder is the damage happening during the mash, with the concentrated sugars sticking to the element as it's heating...

It's because of stories like this that I went induction route a few years ago.

Quote from: WaterWolf on November 02, 2016, 11:26:02 PM
I've decided that life is too short to waste my time making more burnt beer so I've ordered a new element.

You might end up with the same result because it's still going to be the same set up. Might be worth considering options without an exposed element.
I used be able to get 16L of beer using a 23L pot on my kitchen induction hob. You can get induction hobs that can do the job. The Bulldog machines have encased elements and look like good value. And the Grainfather is worth it.

I have used the same 2 elements for nearly 30 boils of 35 or 70l now no problems.
Issues occur when you are doing high ABV beers or putting in brewing sugars.
Some confusing statements there as well are you biag in which case when mashing how long were your elements on for? Why would you think elements were in contact with grain they are in a bag yeah?
What's your ratio of water to grain?
Pictures of elements please?
When elements are burnt with layers of black crackling they need to be chucked you'll never get it all off and you need to to avoid localised hotspots and burning out your element.

I do think that mineral deposits as a result of hard water plays a large part in it.  My elements would be quite noticeable coated by the time I got the water to strike temp when using untreated water.  I also brew using the biab method,  and while the bag acts as a barrier,  fine particles,  extracted sugars do get through.  Also,  if you are applying heat with the bag in, you may be locally heating a small amount of liquid,  as the same barrier slows liquid movement.  So even using a false bottom,  the liquid around the element reaches high temperatures (and the sugars carmelises- did you notice any jelly/guttly material on the element as well?) 
For this reason,  I stopped applying heat during the mash.  I insulated instead.  Also,  pull the bag out, when raising to mash out temp,  and a gentle stirring when raising to a boil.  (my practices have changed mind you,  as I've updated to a ss  vessel and installed a low density element with a pid control.  But I still stir.  The memory of the anguish of tasting the burntness,  especially after fermentation lives very strong in the memory.  To that end I now have an automatic stirrer!)

Quote from: Slev on November 03, 2016, 11:53:16 AM
(To that end I now have an automatic stirrer!)

A Wha?, go on post a pic ;)

Will do later.   Picked it up at a closing down sale.

Just a variable speed drive motor with a chuck fitting on a stand. 

Someone has access to s/h lab equipment then!

Thanks for the replies.

Quote from: Slev on November 02, 2016, 11:47:04 PM
Stir.
When you apply heat to wort -  stir.  Until you achieve a boil - stir. 

Up until now I've been stirring the mash every 5 mins but I haven't been stirring the boil, might be worth a shot.

Quote from: Simon_ on November 03, 2016, 10:05:37 AM
You might end up with the same result because it's still going to be the same set up. Might be worth considering options without an exposed element.

I think if I was starting from scratch or doing a lot of brews I would do this, but as I've already paid for the digital PECO boiler, I don't want to give up on it just yet! Might keep an eye out for cheap Burcos though.

Quote from: CH on November 03, 2016, 10:07:44 AM
Some confusing statements there as well are you biag in which case when mashing how long were your elements on for? Why would you think elements were in contact with grain they are in a bag yeah?

I am doing brew in a bag, but the bag does not fit over the edges of the bucket - it just sits right in the bucket. Without any protection around the element, the bag would sit right on top of it, potentially scorching the bag and its contents. I have a stainless steel cutlery drainer (a big stainless steel mug full of holes) that I sit around the element during the mash to keep the bag off it. When I burnt the wheat beer I tried using a pizza tray as a false bottom instead. The reason I'm not 100% sure the bag doesn't come in contact with the element is that these are just methods I made up - not an official off the shelf solution.

Quote from: CH on November 03, 2016, 10:07:44 AM
What's your ratio of water to grain?

I have been doing a two step mash with two infusions of the same grain in two batches of water. The only reason I've really been doing this is because this is how thehomebrewcompany.ie suggest their all grain kits should be mashed so I've kind of followed through with it when I moved onto my own recipes.

So for the IPA the mash was:
16l of water at 65 degrees for 1 hour with 5kg of Pale Malt and 250g of Munich Malt in the grain bag.
13.5l of water at 76 degrees for 10min with the same grains again.
The total boil volume was around 27.5l

At the end of both of these infusions I also recirculate the wort through the grains by opening the tap into a second bucket, collecting it in a jug and pouring it on top of the grains again.

Quote from: CH on November 03, 2016, 10:07:44 AM
Pictures of elements please?

I'll try getting a photo of the setup and the element but it's all in the attic so it won't be tonight!

Quote from: Slev on November 03, 2016, 11:53:16 AM
I do think that mineral deposits as a result of hard water plays a large part in it.

I moved from Kilmainham to Terenure just before the burning started, so the water profile could potentially have changed but I can't imagine it made that much of a difference.

Quote from: Slev on November 03, 2016, 11:53:16 AM
I also brew using the biab method,  and while the bag acts as a barrier,  fine particles,  extracted sugars do get through.

The crushed grain always contains a very fine flour that comes through the bag, I never know if I should try shaking all this out before putting the grain bag in the mash? I could even try rinsing the grains beforehand?!

Quote from: Slev on November 03, 2016, 11:53:16 AM
So even using a false bottom,  the liquid around the element reaches high temperatures (and the sugars carmelises- did you notice any jelly/guttly material on the element as well?) 

The element ends up coated in a fluffy, sludgey, light brown deposit that wipes off easily. Underneath it is the carbonised black coating that I couldn't get off. I've inspected the element after the mash and it looks okay, it's after the boil that it seems to get his coating.

Quote from: Slev on November 03, 2016, 11:53:16 AM
For this reason,  I stopped applying heat during the mash.

This is a consideration, or just lift the bag out every so often when applying the heat to raise the temperature back up. I have the PECO boiler with the digital controller - it has a temperature probe that goes in the must so it only turns on for short periods during the mash. I still feel the real issue is during the boil, but I could be wrong...

Unfortunately, once the boil has started you can't really see what's happening with the element until you've finished and see the end result.


Anyway, I'm still learning and making stuff up as I go along so any advice is welcome. I keep meaning to join a club and see what other people are doing...

It sounds like the flour is a contributing factor to your problem. I had similar experience without brewing where the elements had a build up of carbon after celery brew. I only took note of it when the pier to the element cut out one evening. I still use that element but I had to manually scrape off the carbon build up. A wheat beer would have a lot of flour by definition. I changed how I crushed my grain buy adding 2% by weight of the grain in water 20 minutes before grinding it. I found this improved the crush of the grain & drastically reduced the flour I had in the crush. I attribute it to reducing the residual build up on the elements as even after 90 minute boils I have not experienced the scorching I had before. I did also start recirculating via a herms soon afterwards also so that probably help to filter out a lot of dissolved solid material.

I would suggest tryi a lower alcohol recipe with more modest grain bill & try get somebody to crush the grain for you using the method I outlined. I suspect that you won't have the same problem.

Shanna

Just as a note,  with biab,  you use the full volume of water during the mash,  ie mash + sparge volume (in this case 29.5l).  Sounds like you need a bigger bag.,  but even with a smaller bag,  you are better off suspending it around the rim,  to allow movement/stirring of the grist. Otherwise,  you'll have a compacted ball, and the grain will not get full exposure to the the full volume of of water,  which is the key to biab.   Also,  if you haven't been using the full volume of water,  then your bag will need to to larger to ensure that the grist is covered.
Sparging is not a required step in biab (since you are effectivly doing the mash and sparge at the same time.  But raising to a mash out temp does help improve efficiency,  by improving the viscosity of the wort,  and leaving more of the extracted sugars behind in the wort.  But some folks do still sparge).
The flour (or particles)  could definitely be a major factor.  I buy my grain crushed (Mill on the Christmas list) ,  so no control over it.  I burnt 2 successive batches using a particular pale malr, which did seem very floury.  Have not used it since.  But then burnt a batch with a different,  not floury malt.  So... 
Also,  once the boil is reached,  I don't stir.  Enough convection going on.  Once you get to that point you should be fine.  But I do until I reach a boil (constant slow stir, for the 15-20 mins. )

Quote from: Will_D on November 03, 2016, 10:18:04 PM
Someone has access to s/h lab equipment then!

*had

Re the IPA it might not have been down to flour. When you say it had a funky burnt taste what type of burnt taste was it? It could be an infection

The bit I picked up on in your previous post was that you used a mug with holes in it over your element, to prevent the bag from sticking to the element. I use a trivet from an old convector microwave. It keeps the bag raised a few inches above the elements. I'd be concerned that your mug restricts space around the element causing hot spots which end up burning wort onto the element.
I previously bought a biab bag from one of the HBS's and it had a coarser material sown into the bottom, this allowed more flour to escape. I now use a bag made from voile curtain netting.
Last but not least the mash out step if to reduce the viscosity of the wort by gelatising any remaining gums within the grist. You need to leave the bag in while heating the wort to heat up the grist. you could I suppose take the bag out during heating steps but you would need to put the bag back in to extract more sugar suspended in the grain, and since the bag will have cooled down by being removed, you would need to extend the mash-out time to say 15 rather than 10 min's
PS Power City has a graveyard just inside the door, usually there's a good few discarded microwaves sitting in the crates, you could try there for a trivet or at your local recycle centre if you don't have one lying around.

This is similar to the trivet I use
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161104/ca8ea7f12f7d735def24d538b389413e.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Is happened to me twice when I was doing biab. I traced the problem (I think) to a combination of malt flour escaping through the bag and the high watt density kettle elements I was using.
I switched to a single 4kw low watt density element and never had any problems after that.

I have two peco elements in a boiler and This only happened to me when I did biab wheat beers. You need to get those elements spotless after this happens. Bar keepers friend is great for this, make a paste out of it and rub it into the element, leave for a bit and then scrub, they will come up brand new

Quote from: Shanna on November 04, 2016, 07:56:31 AM
the elements had a build up of carbon after celery brew.

Celery brew? Dear God nooo!

Quote from: Shanna on November 04, 2016, 07:56:31 AM
I would suggest tryi a lower alcohol recipe with more modest grain bill & try get somebody to crush the grain for you using the method I outlined.

I'll try reducing the grain bill a bit for the upcoming IPA. I get my crushed grain from thehomebrewcompany.ie so I don't really have any control over it. I received the grain I ordered with the new element today, 5kg of Minch Pale Malt. I can see the flour sitting at the bottom of the plastic sack already. This time I'll just make sure I spent a good amount of time shaking the grain in the mesh bag so that I get most of the fine flour out - previously I'd just been dumping it in the mash as it is.

Quote from: Slev on November 04, 2016, 09:31:39 AM
Just as a note,  with biab,  you use the full volume of water during the mash,  ie mash + sparge volume (in this case 29.5l).  Sounds like you need a bigger bag.,

Yea, I might just try doing it this way next time - the second infusion was certainly extracting a good bit of extra sugar from the grain (I measured the S.G. after doing it) but it's more awkward and time consuming so I want to see if I keep the same efficiency just doing it all in one go.

The bag is reasonably big, just not quite big enough to fit all the way around the rim (it does fit around the rim of my narrower fermentation bucket). I can stir the grain okay, so it's not a major issue but, yea, ideally a bigger one would be better.

Quote from: Pheeel on November 04, 2016, 11:06:57 AM
When you say it had a funky burnt taste what type of burnt taste was it? It could be an infection

It's not quite the cigarette ash taste of the wheat beer but it's still a bit burnt as in a kind of smokey flavour. The fermentation temperature was higher than I would have liked as well so I think it's a combination of both aspects. Fermentation temperature will be easier to control at this time of year!

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on November 04, 2016, 11:21:54 AM
The bit I picked up on in your previous post was that you used a mug with holes in it over your element, to prevent the bag from sticking to the element. I use a trivet from an old convector microwave.

Yea, I still haven't really worked out the best solution for this yet - I would have thought the PECO boiler would have come with some kind of false bottom by default... Anyway I'll keep an eye out for something less constrictive - I have a stainless steel mesh splatter screen for a frying pan that could work if I found a way to hold it in place above the element.

Quote from: darren996 on November 04, 2016, 01:15:15 PM
Bar keepers friend is great for this, make a paste out of it and rub it into the element, leave for a bit and then scrub, they will come up brand new

Can you get this in shops in Ireland or only online? Also if using citric acid to clean the element, what concentration do you use?

Most hardware shops should stock barkeepers. don't know if citric would be strong enough for scorched wort, I have never tried it

Quote from: darren996 on November 04, 2016, 09:35:05 PM
Most hardware shops should stock barkeepers. don't know if citric would be strong enough for scorched wort, I have never tried it

Can confirm citric won't shift burnt wort.

Shanna

As requested, here are some photos of the burnt element. Note that some of the burnt layer is flaking off now, but there's still more underneath! There's also a photo of the cutlery drainer I was using to keep the bag off the element.

I think I'll stick the element in the freezer to see if it causes any of the burnt stuff to flake off. If I got it totally clean again it would be handy to have as a backup.

Okay, the forum won't let me post any more. That's all you get!

Fooking hell man how the feck did you manage to do that!
Why won't it cos your not a full member

Sweet jesus that's some layer of crap! I'd be betting on the mash sugars and crud building up with that, as you've caramelised a load ofaterial of some sort on the element.

With a knife try and chip the black off, don't go at it aggressively if it's not coming go and get some drain cleaner from hardware store *nb very aggressive acid and treat with respect it will burn you. Submerge the burnt bit and leave 24 hours, it should reminder off

Quote from: WaterWolf on November 05, 2016, 02:07:46 PM
As requested, here are some photos of the burnt element. Note that some of the burnt layer is flaking off now, but there's still more underneath! There's also a photo of the cutlery drainer I was using to keep the bag off the element.

I think I'll stick the element in the freezer to see if it causes any of the burnt stuff to flake off. If I got it totally clean again it would be handy to have as a backup.

Get a short strong knife & use the back of it to scrape the outer shell of burnt carbon off. As CH said don't go too aggressively. Then use the bar keepers friend & a stainless steel scouring pad to work the rest of the material off. I am guessing that is from several brews. You will need to pay more attention to cleaning after each boil in future. Might be best to ditch that element & buy a low density element instead. Build ups on the element reduce its efficiency & increases the risk that the element will burn out.

Shanna

Issue was by using the cutlery cover you create a localised hot spot that the heat can't dissipate away quick enough from the elements, the net result being carbonation like that.
Look at a way of suspending your bag off the bottom by tying it or using one of those bungee cords, but dump the cutlery cover

Have you tried using oven cleaner in the bag.You can pick it up in one of the pound/euro stores and keep electrical connection outside the bag taping the bag sealed.Shall leave it spotless.

Sent from my ALE-L21

Hello, I thought I should give an update on this.

I finally managed to get some time to do another brew last weekend - pretty much the same recipe again but with the new element. I tried shaking out all the flour from the grains at the start but after 5 mins of shaking it just kept coming. So I concluded it was impossible to get all the flour out.

In the mash I tried to use a new false bottom in the peco boiler - a frying pan splatter screen from Ikea sitting on some glasses. It worked pretty well - the grains were well clear of the element. (If anyone is interested, here is the link, it's a good fit for a bucket: http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/cookware/cooking-accessories/stabil-splatter-screen-stainless-steel-art-10112530/)

At the end of the mash there was a layer of gloopy flour on the element but that just wiped off. I cleaned out the bucket before doing the boil.

I stirred the boil from the very start until it reached boiling point (which took a long time). This was probably the most paranoid brew day ever! At the end of the boil I anxiously transferred the wort to the fermenter, looking to see if the element had burned. But again, the element was clean, just with a bit gloopy flour on it.

So everything went okay, and if I end up with any off flavours in my beer I can't blame a burnt element! I think I still need to reduce the amount of gloopy flour stuff in the wort though. Next time after the mash, I think I will run the wort through a pillowcase to remove some of the solid lumps.

Anyway, thanks for your help!

Good to hear it went well but sounds like you put in a hell of a lot of work there.

If you ever upgrade your boiler get one with a concealed element or get a lwd element they won't burn your wort.

I use a peco boiler, have used this from the start and never had any scorching issues
http://www.geterbrewed.ie/stainless-steel-false-bottom-for-peco-boiler/

I wouldn't be surprised if that false bottom and the ikea splatter lid originated in the same factory!