Rebellious Lambic - AKA Old English October Beer...

[johnrm]

Talks of going sour next.
See Billys posts above, he's getting fond of Belgians :-)

[donnchadhc]

Tag and Belgian in the same sentence? Hearsey!

[mr hoppy]

I wouldn't dry hop in the barrel if the plan is to age for a year. Dry hop aroma disappears after a while, so apart from getting them out they'll have no effect unless you add them in shortly before emptying it.

On the other hand you can dry hop in kegs once it comes out of the barrel if that's what you fancy.

Those who want to can add some brett to a demi-john / keg or two at that stage as well it would allow those of us who might want something Orvalesque to do that - without spoiling it for others who don't.

I've 4 other sources apart from Radical Brewing with recipes for October beers and pale stouts. There's a couple of areas of choice - even with just one hop and one malt and to be honest from experience researching gratzers and gose I wouldn't totally rely on RB. Based on what I've read some of the main choices would be:

How big - OGs went from 1080 to 1120(!)
Hops - How much? - 100+ IBUs would be well within historic norms
        - What type? Goldings would be historically accurate, but with such high IBUs a bittering hop might be worth considering
          but big citrusy / exotic fruit flavours would make it a different beer
        - When? some recipes say all at 60 minutes, others have half the IBUs going in at 60 and the rest at 30 which sounds
          like a good option to me
        - What form? with 100+ IBUs of hops, I'd be thinking pellets, especially if we're going with all Goldings
Malt  - Finest pale malt would be traditional - modern recipes often specify Maris Otter (although it only appeared in 20th C)
         I'm sure MCI malt would be fine, but might need some amber malt to get a bit most biscuitiness (5%?)
Mash - standard single infusion at 67 would probably be ok
Boil - Boil times on the recipes I've seen have varied between 90 minutes and 3.5 hours(!) - hopefully the addition of a
         little amber will do the trick in terms of giving some of the colour the longer boils produced.

Any thoughts?

[Garry]

I was only suggesting to dry hop the barrel because that's what we did long-go. If it won't add anything to the beer then scrap that idea.

Dry hopping/brett-alyzing in the keg is probably the best. We could all end up with our own unique beer too.

My thoughts:

How big:
I'd stay on the shy side of 1.100, suggest 1.090?

Hops:
- IBUs shy side of 100 for me, say 90?
- I'm happy to stick with EKG. It seems to be the only main hop mentioned in Mitch Steele's IPA for old English ales.
- I'd prefer to split the hop times. 60min & 30min like MrH suggests. Would a generous 0min addition be lost with aging?
- I've no preference over leaf or pellets.

Malt:
MCI malt is as fresh and local as we can get. I'd like to stick to 100% ale malt as per the original English October Ale/IPAs. But if you want to add in some colour, biscuit etc 5% of amber would be fine too.

Mash:
standard single infusion at 67 for me too

Boil:
No more than 90 min. The malt and hops we use now are a lot more efficient than the ones we had back in the 19th century! Besides that, if you boiled for 3.5hours you'd be lucky to end up with 5 litres of wort with the viscosity of treacle! You could pull of a litre or 2 of wort and reduce it on the hob to get some of the amber colour?

Having said all that, I'm the most amateur brewer on the list. I'll follow whatever you pros think.

[mr hoppy]

I'd stay on the shy side of 1.100, suggest 1.090?

I'm good with that, but if you really want this beer to be drinkable in 18 years time, bigger might be better.

- IBUs shy side of 100 for me, say 90?
- I'm happy to stick with EKG. It seems to be the only main hop mentioned in Mitch Steele's IPA for old English ales.
- I'd prefer to split the hop times. 60min & 30min like MrH suggests. Would a generous 0min addition be lost with aging?
- I've no preference over leaf or pellets.

The BU:GU ratio on the recipes I saw is generally around 1:1 so 90 IBUs sounds good. Sadly, late hopping is not traditional and it would probably loose some impact after a year.

The reason I mention pellets and high alpha hops is because 90+ IBUs of EKG is a lot of hop material. I'm good with EKG (great hop!) but I'd rather use pellets than see leaf hops absorb a good portion of my precious 1090 brew.

Boil:
No more than 90 min.

Damn straight!

[mr hoppy]

BTW Garry, I've some yeast for you next time I see you. I'm drinking the Black IPA that I used your US-05 in and I'd definitely say you saved the day!

[mr hoppy]

Is anyone on for this?

1 - mr happy

[johnrm]

Did you spot this list a few posts back?...

1. johnrm
2. taf
3. Sam
4. Dara (Just talking to him)
5. mr_happy
6. Garry
7. LordEoin
8.
9.
10. johnrm (2nd batch if short bodies)

[Garry]

I was looking at the yeast selection on HBC. Would a Burton Ale yeast be more suitable than English Ale? They're out of stock of both!

https://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/white-labs-wlp023-burton-ale-yeast-p-1024.html
https://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/white-labs-wlp002-english-ale-yeast-p-1018.html

[johnrm]

HBW have wlp023, same stuff

[Taf]

HBW have wlp023, same stuff

Do we buy one or two, and split it and step it up? We could also check with the F Well, to see if they have anything suitable?

[Garry]

What are ye actually brewing lads? It's not a lambic I gather? 

We've decided to rebel against a lambic for the moment. We're not cultured enough to drink a whole barrel of the stuff  Going to put an October Ale in the whiskey barrel instead.

[LordEoin]

Might aswell get a few more uses out of that barrel before we infect it with belgium

[Ciderhead]

before we infect it with belgium

[Dr Horrible]

I think the October Ale is a great idea, would love to contribute but would like to check a few things first - haven't done this a high a gravity beer before so would appreciate some advice.   I actually have one vial of WLP002 (planning to do a batch of bitter in the next week or two), but for a high gravity beer like that I'm guessing you need a shedload of yeast which either means stepping up a starter or making a low gravity batch of beer.  So if I did my batch of bitter first I'd have the yeast from that to start a batch of October Ale, but that would be probably be about six weeks time or longer before I have the finished beer ready for the barrel (pretty busy at weekends so hard to make time for brewing at the moment) - is this too long?