Rebel Oct Meet

[johnrm]

2 more bods coming along...

Friday
1. Johnrm - random beers
2. SkiBeagle - Calibration Blonde
3. Justin
4. Sara



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[johnrm]

Plus a few more.
Great night had by all.
A cunny bunch of funts!


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[johnrm]

Skibeagle had an interesting lager.
Employing yeast and sugar in the liquor to deoxygenate.
And links Ski?

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[SkiBeagle]

Yeah - some great controversy being stirred up on HBT about this. Religious Flame Wars and the Nuke Gay Whales for Jesus crowd in full flow.
HBT thread: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532

There's a very active website and forum dedicated to this:
germanbrewing.net

The keystone paper is at: http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles.pdf

Some HBT people felt miffed by the attitude of the GBF crew, but I found them very helpful. They've put a phenomenal amount of time and effort into this, and I think it's worth exploring. It's a work in progress, with a lot of careful research and experimentation behind it. I'd be very interested in what people think of it. They recommend an experiment called the mini-mash which is easy and quick to do, to test the hypothesis. Well worth the time. You only need some Sodium Metabisulphite or Campden tabs to do it.

You'll find reports of the yeast deoxygenation technique in the forum at:
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=355

I'm planning a write-up on changes I'm making in my process to reduce O2 ingress.

[mr hoppy]

In a similar vein

http://hoptripper.com/the-real-quality-issue-oxidation/

[Leann ull]

Interesting, one thing is raising an eyebrow, oxygenating after pitching.

[Dr Horrible]

Oxygenating wort (or aerating) isnt that unusual, listen to a lot of the TBN podcasts and its common enough, done it myself for a few high gravity brews and its worked out well. In the yeast growth phase oxygen is necessary, it only becomes detrimental at high krausen and after.

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[Leann ull]

Yep I gave a squirt to a RIS 12 hours in before, but I thought pure 02 killed yeast, bloody Palmer

Here's an interesting article which debunks role of 02 in fermentation and you don't need o2 at all, stick with it

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxygen_in_fermentation

[SkiBeagle]

Very interesting articles,  thanks CH and MrHoppy. I'd come across the crabtree effect before, but never seen it explained so clearly for homebrewers. Some of the GBF guys avoid the need for O2 by pitching the slurry from the previous brew - effectively the yeast is doubling or tripling in size, so not much need for O2 at all. Now I understand how that could work. And of course, when I use a dry yeast like Notty, there's no need to aerate if the right amount is pitched, because it has all the nutrients it needs to grow.
In this hobby, every day is a schoolday!

[Leann ull]

I was hung up on a need for 02 rather than the quality and quantity of yeast

[mr hoppy]

How was your beer ski beagle. Did you observe a noticeable effect?

[Leann ull]

Ooh yeah be very interested in process/result if you've tried it?

[SkiBeagle]

I should ask our very own fully qualified beer judge to comment!
I was very pleased with the colour - very pale gold and very clear, all a good sign that it hasn't suffered much oxidation. Taste is very clean (recipe is just Lager Malt, Hallertauer Tradition hops, Notty yeast fermented around 15ºC). Downside is a very strong sulphur aroma from the remaining sodium metabisulphite. This is down to three things: ale yeasts are not as good at clearing up sulphur as lager yeasts; I probably could reduce the SMB dose down from 50mg/litre to something smaller; and I did a closed pressurised fermentation, and it probably would have been better if I let it breathe during the active ferment. The aroma is getting better as time passes - this beer is only 4 weeks old. I've had this before with T-58 yeast, and that cleared up after a few weeks.
I've done 4 brews now trying to progressively incorporate low O2 techniques, and I think the beers are definitely better. One thing I notice is that mash-smell is gone - not filling the house any more, which means it's staying in the pot. This is the first one that has a sulphur aroma. But this is a calibration beer, very light flavour, very light colour, IBU ~20, no crystal malts whatsoever, no finings, no dry-hops. Think of the heavenly delight that is Coors. The idea is to make a beer that has nowhere to hide - it very evident if O2 is getting in, or if any off-flavours are developing. The other 3 brews were with ale malt, some crystal/vienna and more hops - easier to hide flaws. They tasted great. I do this calibration beer every few months to see how my process is doing.
I think low O2 beers with SMB will need longer lagering to let the sulphur dissipate, or else maybe a better choice of yeast that can clean up sulphur better. T-58 might be worth another go, because it produces sulphur like a lager yeast and can clean it up given time. If you have any suggestions for yeasts to try, I'd be very interested.

[Leann ull]

Sounds interesting enough to give it a go but campden has me

[SkiBeagle]

Yeah - it's strange chucking 2 or 3 tablets into 20L of strike water. About 440mg apparently per tab. The main idea of it is that 15 ppm of SMB can scavenge 1 ppm of dissolved O2. You have to get rid of the DO first either by preboiling and chilling fast down to strike temps or else use the yeast method to clean up the liquor. Then say 50mg/L SMB to handle up to 3ppm O2 introduced by dough-in and the hour of mashing. Boiling is fine - no DO in boiling wort. Chilling then needs to be fast as possible to get down to pitch temps, where you have the protection of yeast again. The residual amount of sulfites left should be around 10ppm in the beer, which is comparable to commercial beers, where some is added for flavour stability and longevity, or in the case of German beers, is produced by the yeast.
They're testing using a mix of SMB, ascorbic acid and possibly Brewtan-B, to reduce the amount of SMB for ales, and that's looking very promising. Lager yeasts handle the SMB better, and the long lagering time sorts it out. Ales are more of a problem, but it may turn out to be finding the right yeast.
Defo try the mini-mash. Just a bit of malt, some campden, and you can see and taste the difference. Be very interested to get your opinion.