How much hops is too much hops?

[UpsidedownA (Andrew)]

Really what you are arguing over discussing is a matter of personal preference.

'Fraid not  We're not arguing whether really hoppy beers are good or bad (at least I'm not). I was discussing Deadman's claim that there is some ulterior motive at work in beers that are highly hopped (i.e. highly hopped beers should be treated suspiciously because they hide some flaw in the underlying beer). This claim is open to dispute and not a matter of personal preference. I think Deadman is wrong and I explained why. Simple 

But EVERYONE (except me) has got off the topic of whether there's such a thing as too much hops EVEN IF A PROPERLY HOPPY PROFILE IS WHAT YOU'RE AFTER. The answer is YES. Sometimes less is more because hop flavours and aromas are concentration dependent so you have to dial in the right parts per million to get the flavour you want. It's all in Heironymous's "For the Love of Hops" (I'd put a page reference in, but I've misplaced my copy).

[Ciderhead]

My generalisation is:

People reared on European beers (Czech, German, Belgian, British) are generally hostile towards the more flamboyant American versions of these styles.

Ouch or as Tim O Rourke at the Alltech gig said
Americans like to brew beer tasting like rotten grass and fermented in a cat pelt

Just saying..it got a few laughs on the day even from some Americans.

I think his point was that they make the hops do all the work and try to cover and or ignore the malts and its lazy brewing.... controversial enough for ya?

[Dr Jacoby]

To my way of thinking if you are putting in so much hops that its overpowering the malt then what is the point?

The point, presumably, is that you like the taste of hops. 

Beer is malt based after all, you don't need hops to brew beer but you do need malt, therefore IMHO hops should never be overpowering.

So it's ok for yeast to be overpowering? Surely no ingredient should be overpowering. It is after all a term of disapproval. 

Perhaps you mean prominent rather than overpowering? But by that logic vanilla should never be a prominent flavour in ice cream because it is not an essential ingredient. That strikes me as bizarre.

As home brewers we often use dry hopping to mask off flavours before bottling or kegging

I haven't and I don't recall any other homebrewer admitting to it. But hey, you could be right.   

don't see why craft breweries would not be the same tbh.

Maybe their worried that customers would see through their devious strategy? Or maybe it doesn't really happen.

If you have to horse in the hops then IMHO that tells me you are covering up a lack lustre beer

You don't have to horse in hops, though you might want to. Do you really not see that a brewer might actually want to add lots of hops, not to hide a flaw but because they like the bitterness or flavour or aroma? 

, if you want a hop bomb where nothing is coming through but hops, then stick them in some boiling water.

That's how most beers are made 

The Belgians might have been crazy but all those things you mentioned are NEEDED to brew beer, hops are not.

The Belgians are still crazy god bless 'em. As is the artificiality of the distinction you're drawing.

I am sure there are other ways to improve brewing other than going batshit crazy with hops.

I'm pretty sure you're right.

This attitude that appears to be coming from the USA about hopping the hell out of brews remember comes from the land hat gave us Budweiser,Miller etc. At least we had Guinness.

Eh, I honestly don't know what to say to this 

[Dr Jacoby]

Really what you are arguing over discussing is a matter of personal preference.

'Fraid not  We're not arguing whether really hoppy beers are good or bad (at least I'm not). I was discussing Deadman's claim that there is some ulterior motive at work in beers that are highly hopped (i.e. highly hopped beers should be treated suspiciously because they hide some flaw in the underlying beer). This claim is open to dispute and not a matter of personal preference. I think Deadman is wrong and I explained why. Simple 

But EVERYONE (except me) has got off the topic of whether there's such a thing as too much hops EVEN IF A PROPERLY HOPPY PROFILE IS WHAT YOU'RE AFTER. The answer is YES. Sometimes less is more because hop flavours and aromas are concentration dependent so you have to dial in the right parts per million to get the flavour you want. It's all in Heironymous's "For the Love of Hops" (I'd put a page reference in, but I've misplaced my copy).

I agree that there is such a thing 

[Greg2013]

Really what you are arguing over discussing is a matter of personal preference.

'Fraid not  We're not arguing whether really hoppy beers are good or bad (at least I'm not). I was discussing Deadman's claim that there is some ulterior motive at work in beers that are highly hopped (i.e. highly hopped beers should be treated suspiciously because they hide some flaw in the underlying beer). This claim is open to dispute and not a matter of personal preference. I think Deadman is wrong and I explained why. Simple 

I am not arguing with anyone except myself today

Mettatron i am not saying i dislike hoppy beers, i have not drank enough of then to say one way or another tbh. Although i realise i may have given that impression sorry. What i dislike is the growing attitude(IMHO) that unless it contains a shit load of hops its meh, bit like all beer in clear bottles is skunky, i say bollox to both but that's just IMHO.


I never said that highly hopped beers should be treated with suspicion, if you can show me where i said that i will say fair cop guv. I am not telling anybody how they should view beers with loads of hops, why would i be that presumptious ?

I did not make a claim i believe, what i gave was just my own personal opinion, i believe to be a claim i would have to say everybody SHOULD think the same way?

UpsidedownA i agree, less is more sometimes, but holy cow Batman if we don't hop the shit out of it we can't possibly drink it, it must be crap.

[Greg2013]

Just FYI i am brewing a Coopers draught this evening with a lot of hops, 25gr Cascade@30 and 25gr Herkules@5, in a 30 min boil.

Not a lot of hops you say? Its a one gallon batch I am treating this one with suspicion(how the hell do you spell that anyway?)

[UpsidedownA (Andrew)]

Found my book! The page reference for the 'less is more' story is p28ff.

[Eoin]

What i dislike is the growing attitude(IMHO) that unless it contains a shit load of hops its meh, bit like all beer in clear bottles is skunky, i say bollox to both but that's just IMHO.

Eh, but that is more or less true, take a stella off the cold shelf and it will be to some extent skunked. Drink a can of stella side by side with a bottle if you want to recognise skunking.

[Eoin]

My generalisation is:

People reared on European beers (Czech, German, Belgian, British) are generally hostile towards the more flamboyant American versions of these styles.

There may be some truth in this, no harm in people testing boundaries, but the old styles will always prevail in the end.

[Shane Phelan]

My generalisation is:

People reared on European beers (Czech, German, Belgian, British) are generally hostile towards the more flamboyant American versions of these styles.

There may be some truth in this, no harm in people testing boundaries, but the old styles will always prevail in the end.

Why should the old styles prevail? I think the old styles are boring and I'm the exact opposite to the above. I started with the American styles and I find European styles taste like Budweiser/Miller in comparison to American versions. I know that will cause certain people to have a hissy-fit but I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

[Tom]

Aah, I think I (flippantly) know what's going on here. I think this is the question to which Douglas Adams was refering to when writing 'The Hitchhikers Guide...'. 42 is too much hops. 

[Greg2013]

Going to be controversial here. Haven't read the whole thread so I expect flames.

Lots of hops mask other flavours. As a homebrewer I stuck in loads of hops in IPA-styles in the early days and reckoned I had brewed legendary beers. But I hadn't. I had made alcoholic hop cocktails with no balance. I only realised that later.

This does extend to commercial beer too. I cited an example to Shiny this evening of a hoppy commercial Irish beer where if you took out the hops the beer underneath tastes of nothing but diacetyl.

Unlike malt, water, or yeast, hops can be used to mask the underlying beer.

Thank you Tube in my convoluted way that was the core of what i was trying to say. I was looking at this from POV of a complete beginner home brewer.

My generalisation is:

People reared on European beers (Czech, German, Belgian, British) are generally hostile towards the more flamboyant American versions of these styles.

There may be some truth in this, no harm in people testing boundaries, but the old styles will always prevail in the end.

Why should the old styles prevail? I think the old styles are boring and I'm the exact opposite to the above. I started with the American styles and I find European styles taste like Budweiser/Miller in comparison to American versions. I know that will cause certain people to have a hissy-fit but I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

But Shiny i do Hissy Fits so well don't you think ? 

[Eoin]

Going to be controversial here. Haven't read the whole thread so I expect flames.

Lots of hops mask other flavours. As a homebrewer I stuck in loads of hops in IPA-styles in the early days and reckoned I had brewed legendary beers. But I hadn't. I had made alcoholic hop cocktails with no balance. I only realised that later.

This does extend to commercial beer too. I cited an example to Shiny this evening of a hoppy commercial Irish beer where if you took out the hops the beer underneath tastes of nothing but diacetyl.

Unlike malt, water, or yeast, hops can be used to mask the underlying beer.

Yep, more hops seems to be the default position of a lot of brewers. People say it's pushing envelopes, I think it's lacking in imagination and following a trend personally. An innovative beer that I had this weekend that I enjoyed was the Rogue hazelnut Brown, I'd not session it, but it's a nice beer.

[Padraic]

An innovative beer that I had this weekend that I enjoyed was the Rogue hazelnut Brown, I'd not session it, but it's a nice beer.

It's a good beer alright, if only they'd add more hops 

[Alex Lawes]

How to balance beers -

Take the starting gravity of your beer, e.g 1.050

Then x by 1000 = 50

Take your desired IBU's, e.g 30 IBU

Divide by your gravity - 30/50 = 0.6

You now have your BU:GU ratio.

Cross reference this against the style.

Add more hops.

There's a difference between hop bitterness and hop flavour.
The great beers in my opinion are the ones which know how to differentiate the two and understand both malt flavour and hop flavour in respect to one another.
It's not just understanding sweet and bitter but everything in between.
Getting the most out of your hop oils as well as melanoidins is key here.

You could argue that you could keep lashing malts at a stout thinking you're a genius as well without appreciating the space each one needs from one another to stand out too. It goes both ways. An IPA isn't the only place where mistakes can hide.

The thing about hop forward beers is that we're living in a time where hops are the most exciting thing happening in the area of materials available to us with breeding programs and blends. Malts have been relatively stagnant for years now if you compare them to the strides the cones are making.

Anything else in a discussion about over-hopping is a matter of unbalance in recipes or a question of preference in beer style in my opinion.