Ive been mailing the manager in SciChem in Cork today. Nice helpful fellow. They are up for doing a discount for the club on a group buy. He is waiting on some info from his supplier so it'll be next week before I have prices. From Dr.Jacoby mailing them before I know the price for 1 tank was 85e & the regulator was 50e approx. We'll get a better rate than that with a group buy discount obviously.
He also mentioned they have a 100% plant based line cleaner which works better than traditional line cleaners (i think someone may have got some on here already)
For now Im just gauging interest for a potential group buy on the oxygen & regulators. If you think you might want to buy a tank & regulator stick your name below.
1. Hop Bomb
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
Tom,
Please see attached quote for calibration Oxygen,
Prices attached are based on purchasing 1 bottle at time,
I can give a 5% discount for 5 to 10 bottles
I can give a 10% discount for 10 or more bottles,
(http://i.imgur.com/iCyQcWIl.jpg)
Prices are ex VAT. He said if there is only the three of us he'll still give us the 5% discount. Im just waiting on
some info on the cheaper regulator to see if you can read what lpm you are pumping oxygen at as the fixed flow reg is a bit pricey.
It seems pricey but for 110 litres of O2 its very cheap in comparison to the rental free welders O2 available here.
I'd imagine we might need a flow meter to gauge the flow rate through the cheaper regulator. Something like this (http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/index.php?route=product/product&keyword=flow%20meter&product_id=461) maybe.
It's a pity the fixed flow regulators are so expensive. I've tried finding cheaper ones before but no luck.
The 110L disposable tank would do roughly 100 x 20 litre batches. That would see me through 5 or more years of brewing I reckon. €143 + VAT starts to sound more reasonable in that context.
Im still waiting on Frank to get back to me about gauging the flow on the cheap regs. That link looks like it might do the job alright.
I agree - 100 batches for 143 + vat & the comfort of knowing your oxygenation is perfect. One less thing to nerd out about :)
Have you already bought? I would be interested also.
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
Watching carefully :o
Frank still hasnt responded to my emails re: the regulator. He has read them. I know this as Ive got an app in my gmail to tell me if my sent mails have been opened or not. I called his office & he is on the road. I rang his mobile there & left a message. Just waiting on a call back.
Im defo buying the 110L tank. Not for 3-4 weeks though. Might try ebay for the regulator if scichem cant give me a straight answer.
Are they the same as these:
http://www.oxyfit.co.uk/Oxyfit_110_Litre_Replacement_Bottle_562.aspx
Much cheaper and ship anywhere in europe...
No not the same. They have those oxy turbo kits & refills in my local plumb shop. 150e all in & the bottles are tiny.
These 110L tanks are the same price & would do 100 brews. Getting the correct regulator is the issue (still no contact from Frank at scichem) as you want full control so you can aerate with the perfect amount of oxygen.
This site shows pics & stats of the regulators SciChem are selling. looking closely at the pics in the catalogue I have here & looking at the website it looks like the cheaper regulators have a flow control sight glass with a ball/bubble in it to show you your lpm.
http://www.brandtinst.com/Gasco/Gasco_Regulator_Photos-&-Descriptions.html
edit: Didnt see that they were 110L. Great find Mettatron! Will have to rethink this now.
I got those Oxybottles in the north for just under 20stg each with a reg that also cost 20.
There is a litre of liquid oxygen in them and I calculated that I will get 30-40 brews from it.
I used it for 2 mins on an RIS and 75 seconds for a pale and no sign of it being empty, I will weigh it the next time.
I subsequently found out last week the agents down here are;
http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/ who have no shop just an online service.
I pinged them an email a couple of days ago and will post back as to what their costs are.
I am also looking for the inline filter membrane but can only see them in the US, its probably an overkill tbh and nothing will really grow in pore O2
Thanks to Mettatrons golden link it looks like a bulk buy of these will have everyone 110L of oxygen for half the price nearly.
There is a discount if we buy 3 or more of these which brings the price per kit down by 20 sterling to 79.99 (before shipping)
(http://i.imgur.com/9Ae43Q4l.jpg)
The kit includes the regulator, face mask & tubing. You can just take the mask off & add your aeration stone to the end. You could buy a cheapo flow meter to put inline from ebay.
Is it time for a new list?
1. Hop_Bomb: 1 x OXYFIT - Oxygen in a can (110 Litres) with valve and mask
I have to say at that new price its very tempting.
*goes off to research oxygen
They have a separate price for just the bottle that is cheaper still. Might be worth investing the difference in a decent reg as theirs doesn't look great. I'd guess the bottle has a standard fitting.
Is there a standard fitting though? I bought my aeration kit from the states & the regulator doesnt fit those oxyturbo bottles. These have the same fitting.
@Ciderhead - How do you know what your flow rate is though? To get the correct ppm for your OG you need to know your flow rate. Here is some info courtesy of Dr.Jacoby via Chris Whites Yeast book: oxygen needs to be injected at a rate of 1 litre per minute in a 1.077 wort to reach the desired 8-12ppm. This time could be reduced for a weaker wort. ("Yeast", Chris White, p. 79) The best flow rate for a homebrewer is .5 or 1 litre per minute. So for a wort of roughly 1.045 you'd need to oxygenate for about 90 seconds if you were using a .5 litre per minute flow regulator. If you were using a flow meter set to 1 litre per minute you'd need about 45 seconds
Going off that your 1 litre bottle should only do one brew at 1.077 (lets say 2 brews of a weaker beer) not 30-40. Thats for perfect aeration though. If you are just adding some as a little is better than nothing then I can see how you plan to get 30-40 brews from it.
Great podcast on it here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/771
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 16, 2013, 10:42:36 AMThere is a litre of liquid oxygen in them and I calculated that I will get 30-40 brews from it. I used it for 2 mins on an RIS and 75 seconds for a pale and no sign of it being empty, I will weigh it the next time.
Just following on from what Hop Bomb has said, how did you calculate that you could get 30-40 brews from a 1 litre bottle? If we could make the oxygen stretch that far then oxygenation would be super cheap and affordable!
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 16, 2013, 10:42:36 AMI subsequently found out last week the agents down here are; http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/ who have no shop just an online service.
I pinged them an email a couple of days ago and will post back as to what their costs are.
I am also looking for the inline filter membrane but can only see them in the US, its probably an overkill tbh and nothing will really grow in pore O2
I was in contact with these guys before. They ain't cheap. This (http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/index.php?route=product/product&keyword=oxygen&product_id=2371) is the best they can do for 9 Litres (though I never asked about group buy savings). They source their equipment from these guys (http://www.specialisedwelding.co.uk/) in the UK.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 16, 2013, 10:45:53 AM
Thanks to Mettatrons golden link it looks like a bulk buy of these will have everyone 110L of oxygen for half the price nearly.
There is a discount if we buy 3 or more of these which brings the price per kit down by 20 sterling to 79.99 (before shipping)
(http://i.imgur.com/9Ae43Q4l.jpg)
The kit includes the regulator, face mask & tubing. You can just take the mask off & add your aeration stone to the end. You could buy a cheapo flow meter to put inline from ebay.
Is it time for a new list?
1. Hop_Bomb: 1 x OXYFIT - Oxygen in a can (110 Litres) with valve and mask
This is all very exciting :P My only worry is getting a proper regulator. It might be worth contacting them to see what they would suggest?
Just mailed them about shipping & got a reply within 10 mins. Nice. Up to 10 bottles is 22.97e p&p.
Just mailed them there about regulators/thread size for the tanks & what they'd recommend.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 16, 2013, 11:12:41 AM
Is there a standard fitting though? I bought my aeration kit from the states & the regulator doesnt fit those oxyturbo bottles. These have the same fitting.
@Ciderhead - How do you know what your flow rate is though? To get the correct ppm for your OG you need to know your flow rate. Here is some info courtesy of Dr.Jacoby via Chris Whites Yeast book: oxygen needs to be injected at a rate of 1 litre per minute in a 1.077 wort to reach the desired 8-12ppm. This time could be reduced for a weaker wort. ("Yeast", Chris White, p. 79) The best flow rate for a homebrewer is .5 or 1 litre per minute. So for a wort of roughly 1.045 you'd need to oxygenate for about 90 seconds if you were using a .5 litre per minute flow regulator. If you were using a flow meter set to 1 litre per minute you'd need about 45 seconds
Going off that your 1 litre bottle should only do one brew at 1.077 (lets say 2 brews of a weaker beer) not 30-40. Thats for perfect aeration though. If you are just adding some as a little is better than nothing then I can see how you plan to get 30-40 brews from it.
Great podcast on it here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/771
I used to use a drill and paddle in the buckets or wine degasser in the carboys, it got me by until I started reading on here and else where about head retention
I now crank an O2 bottle with a .5 aeration stone.
My gauge is akin to a lot of my homebrewing open her up and let her flow!
I was going to turn her down if a lot of bubbles boiled to the surface but they didnt so I am guessing I have an 80-90% transmission rate.
Have a read of this and you will see even with a flowmeter and not a reg, its not an exact science as there are variables.
http://byo.com/stories/item/146-are-welding-oxygen-canisters-safe-for-homebrewing-aeration
All I can see is my fermetation feels like it starts earlier and is stronger, I haven't gone backwards which is the important thing and I dont have 12 inches of foam on the top of my wort before yeast addition either which was great for chucking my starters into carboys.
I'm still too early using the process to comment about head retention.
This sounds good. I think I'm in but how big are the bottles size wise? A foot tall? two foot tall?
If the mask is anything to go by they look to be just over a foot tall which is why I'm interested in them. Its no use to me if its a rugby player's leg type thing.
From their website
"With regular breathing at a flow of 2 litres per minute the oxygen is sufficient for approx. 55 minutes.
Dimensions: weight - 1296g, height 32cm, diameter 7cm"
That bottle looks suspiciously like my welding gas with a different label for 3 times the cost!,
I am not sure you could physically get 110L in a bottle that small.
Input required on gas compression from NHC gas consulant?, whose house btw is on the Malahide Firebrigade watch list :-)
A 1 Litre bottle of Oxygen like the welding gas that CH has is filled to about 110 bar
Science bit:
One bar is atmospheric pressure at sea level: typically 14 psi (unless its a piss wet day in .ie and so is about 13.5).
So a 1 litre bottle filled at 1 bar has 1 L of O2
So a 1 L bottle filled to 10 bar will contain 10 L of )2
Therefore at 110 bar the bottle will contain 110 Litres
Thanks Dr Gas ;)
So indeed it is the same as my welding tank.
Seems like - just a teeney tiney price difference!
So the oxyturbo weld kit disposables are 110 litres? Are ye 100% sure? If ye are then ye've blown the lid off this whole thing making it super cheap (bar the fixed flow regulator) Awesome!
I was in touch with an ebay seller before about these lads below: (is this the same as yours CH?)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxy-Turbo-Oxygen-Disposable-Gas-Cylinder/161063167235?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D9155680382373718151%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D130904157295%26
16.50 GBP is the best they can do on shipping. I cant find any online seller in Ireland selling them. Plumb shop here in Galway has the whole kit for 150e but no refills.
Re: the price difference between the oxyfit & oxyturbo: One is medical grade oxygen & has the whole sports/well being angle. The other is welders oxygen & aimed at tradesmen.
I am still looking for in line filters such as these guys,
http://morebeer.com/products/sanitary-filter.html?a_aid=homebrewing
probably not necessary and nothing grows in pure 02 and it beats the nasties I was paddle drilling in before from my shed!
Don't forget 0.5 diffuser, aquarium diffusers just blow the whole lot out of the bottle I tried :( , I bought this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diffusion-Aeration-OXYGEN-STONE-5-Micron-Homebrew-Beer-Brewing-Wort-1-or-2-Pack-/280866354728?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:IE:3160
Welding supplier http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/ an online supplier only based in dublin are Oxybar agents but still haven't come back to me somebody else give them a go they may get the message they may be interested if we were looking for a job lot of say 10, I'd go another for a GB even though I can still get them in NI.
I asked them for prices on the valve and reg, even knowing I paid 20stg each in the North
Ive got a kit already. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130892097368&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
The regulator doesnt fit the oxy bottles though.
Im still waiting on prices from oxyfit on the fixed flow regulators. They do 2 LPM fixed regs so you could use their reg & the oxyturbo bottles.
I just rang Wholesale Welding Supplies & they said they'd do a discount on bulk buys. Their sales guy is gona call me back. Asked for prices on the regs aswell.
You could also use the oxyturbo reg & just use one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-5LPM-Air-Oxygen-Rotameter-Flow-Meter-Flowmeter-/150967186248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2326587348 in line to regulate your lpm.
go on then
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
5. Ciderhead
on the basis that oxygen is a great hangover cure.
I will also add my name to this, I have informed SWMBO that oxygen is good for hay fever....(may not be true)
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
7. Rossa
1. Hop Bomb
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 18, 2013, 09:56:31 AMI was in touch with an ebay seller before about these lads below: (is this the same as yours CH?)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxy-Turbo-Oxygen-Disposable-Gas-Cylinder/161063167235?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D9155680382373718151%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D130904157295%26
16.50 GBP is the best they can do on shipping. I cant find any online seller in Ireland selling them.
It says on their ebay page that they only deliver to the UK mainland. It seems to be same for other suppliers in the UK I've come across - probably due to the dangers involved in using oxygen. Does anyone know where else we could source the oxy turbo bottles?
Nothing stopping us from using parcel motel and then when the package is too big/heavy they deliver it for €15.
Or when you are saying mainland, that excludes the north?
True, though some of the suppliers only supply the UK mainland, excluding Northern Ireland. Others say they will ship to Ireland but for an additional cost. Parcel Motel really does rock
Just checked their website, we can actually avoid the €15 if its collected from their depot and under 35kg.
Its the crowd in Dublin who said they'd do a discount on the oxyturbo bottles.
Re: that ebay link - I mailed the seller & that was his best price for shipping as it weighs 1.5kg. Its irrelevant anyway as we can get them from Dublin (wholesale welding supplies)
CH, where in the north do you get the oxygen from? Lots of places doing regs for them for around £20. I take it this is the type of filter you were looking for:
http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/spare-sterile-filter-for-wort-aerator-p-1204.html
Wholesale Welding Supplies sales guy rang me & will have a quote for me in the morning on the oxygen & the regulators. He told me the disposables are 137 bar (do your thing Will :)
Oxyfit got back to me with a quote on their 2 LPM fixed flow regulators (which should fit the oxyturbo bottles):
1 @ £110
3 @ £95
5 @ £90
>10 @ £85
Shipping to ROI is approximately £19.20
Quote from: Metattron on July 18, 2013, 02:36:01 PM
CH, where in the north do you get the oxygen from? Lots of places doing regs for them for around £20. I take it this is the type of filter you were looking for:
http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/spare-sterile-filter-for-wort-aerator-p-1204.html
Uck uck uck me sometimes what u are looking is right under ur nose
Thank you so much for finding this :)
Didn't answer the question though!
Aren't 2lpm fixed regs too much? From what I've been reading 0.2lpm for 30 seconds is what you want for a 20 litre batch. Too much oxygen will damage the yeast cell walls.
2 LPM regs are the slowest flow rate they do. You dont have to run it for a minute. You could do how ever many seconds needed to hit your desired ppm for your OG.
I posted this earlier in the thread re: lpm & ppm.
Here is some info courtesy of Dr.Jacoby via Chris Whites Yeast book: oxygen needs to be injected at a rate of 1 litre per minute in a 1.077 wort to reach the desired 8-12ppm. This time could be reduced for a weaker wort. ("Yeast", Chris White, p. 79) The best flow rate for a homebrewer is .5 or 1 litre per minute. So for a wort of roughly 1.045 you'd need to oxygenate for about 90 seconds if you were using a .5 litre per minute flow regulator. If you were using a flow meter set to 1 litre per minute you'd need about 45 seconds
Going off that with an OG of 1045 & a 2 lpm regulator you'd run the oxygen for 22.5 seconds.
Il probably just get one of those cheap flow meters from China myself. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-5LPM-Air-Oxygen-Rotameter-Flow-Meter-Flowmeter-/150967186248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2326587348
My number 12 post was about right then if you allow 80-90% transmission rate :)
Just a heads up - Oxygen used for welding is not the same (clean/sterile) as medical oxygen. Welding Oxygen won't have the same level of filtering as medical. Not sure of the exact differences and how that relates to using welding oxygen with beer.
Used to be a welder (a long long time ago) and remember this fact cause it was almost beaten into us, especially when caught taking a couple of blasts on a Monday morning after a weekend on the rip.
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 19, 2013, 12:52:19 AM
My number 12 post was about right then if you allow 80-90% transmission rate :)
Whats the flow rate on your regulator when open full blast? If you know that then yeah you could roughly gauge your lpm by opening the reg half way or whatever.
@ VonHolt: Its fine. Most homebrewers are using welders oxygen. Shiny here did a petri dish test of open air when bottling etc & you'd be surprised whats floating around the air we breath. Welders oxygen is defo more pure & a cleaner way to aerate. Medical oxygen is expensive (the medical oxyfit bottle is 85 GBP compared with the welders oxyturbo which is 20e)
Idea: We could buy one of those cheap flow meters from ebay china & an extra tank of the oxyturbo. Then we could calibrate each oxyturbo regulator to an agreed LPM. Mark it with a sharpie or something. Cheaper than buying a fixed flow reg or everyone buying the ebay flow meter.
How to measure flow rate without a flow meter:
Fill 1 litre plastic bottle with water.
Fill kitchen sink with cold water.
Put thumb over bottle, invert and place in sink. You now have a bottle full of water upside down in the sink!
Stick the oxygen tube into neck of bottle and time how long it takes to fill bottle.
Simples
Mr Will is so clever ;) :) :)
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 19, 2013, 09:55:24 AM
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 19, 2013, 12:52:19 AM
My number 12 post was about right then if you allow 80-90% transmission rate :)
Whats the flow rate on your regulator when open full blast? If you know that then yeah you could roughly gauge your lpm by opening the reg half way or whatever.
@ VonHolt: Its fine. Most homebrewers are using welders oxygen. Shiny here did a petri dish test of open air when bottling etc & you'd be surprised whats floating around the air we breath. Welders oxygen is defo more pure & a cleaner way to aerate. Medical oxygen is expensive (the medical oxyfit bottle is 85 GBP compared with the welders oxyturbo which is 20e)
I will do the same test again with the oxygen by letting it flow for a minute directly onto a petri dish. Should give us a fair idea of what's in it. :)
Wholesale Welding Supplies rang & gave me their best price:
Regulators @ 23e all in
Oxygen @ 19.50e all in
Delivery for 1 box (no matter how many bottles/regs) @ 5.95e
Tom that is a great price!
Brilliant. Well I'm definitely up for this. I'd also like to get a flow meter. This (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LZQ-3-flowmeter-0-5LPM-flow-meter-with-control-valve-for-Oxygen-air-gas-/231020288717?pt=Fish_Filters&var=&hash=item35c9e1dacd) is the cheapest I have been able to find so far.
Where did everyone get their aeration stone? I'm thinking the stainless steel ones are superior to the ceramic ones?
Edit: Its payday this week for me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. ;)
Think Il buy one of those flow meters too. Good find!
These are 137 bar so going off WillD the bottles should have 137 litres in them?
I got my .5 SS stone here: http://www.homebrewstuff.com/diffusion-stone-5-micron.html
Hop & Grape do a 2 micron SS stone here: http://hopandgrape.co.uk/public/detailv1.asp?itemcode=STA20069953
I bought this (http://www.williamsbrewing.com/22-AERATION-WAND-P490.aspx) bad boy not too long ago and had a friend bring it back to Ireland (they don't ship internationally). I don't think anywhere else does a similar all-in-one stainless set-up, but there are versions where the air stone is connected to tubing. Morebeer do one I think?
I've read that it can be tricky to keep the airstone submerged with soft tubing during oxygenation but I suppose you could use stiffer tubing. In fact, I think I might be robbing that idea from someone I talked to at the Alltech convention over the weekend. Ciderhead maybe?
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
Wholesale Welding Supplies rang & gave me their best price:
Regulators @ 23e all in
Oxygen @ 19.50e all in
Delivery for 1 box (no matter how many bottles/regs) @ 5.95e
Is this a group buy price? Myself and Shiny are brewing a monster beer this weekend and it would be great to have the ability to oxygenate it properly. If those prices are for NHC buyers (but not for a group buy) then I might go ahead and get mine straight away. Otherwise I'll hold on for everybody else.
Ive got my stone & tubing inside a stainless spear I removed from a keg. Stiffer tubing would work also. You could weigh it down with a stainless nut/bolt? The wand is a much more elegant solution though.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 10:51:21 AM
Ive got my stone & tubing inside a stainless spear I removed from a keg.
Very clever! Nice solution
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on July 22, 2013, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
Wholesale Welding Supplies rang & gave me their best price:
Regulators @ 23e all in
Oxygen @ 19.50e all in
Delivery for 1 box (no matter how many bottles/regs) @ 5.95e
Is this a group buy price? Myself and Shiny are brewing a monster beer this weekend and it would be great to have the ability to oxygenate it properly. If those prices are for NHC buyers (but not for a group buy) then I might go ahead and get mine straight away. Otherwise I'll hold on for everybody else.
I told them we'd be ordering 10 bottles & possibly 10 regs & thats the price they gave me. They didnt have the regulators in stock Friday but are ordering more. The savings arent huge so maybe call them yourself if you're in a hurry...
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
This needs to be on the members side?
I will also get a quote from my current source subject to final numbers.
I think it would be good if we also supplied those inline filters?
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 22, 2013, 11:20:33 AM
This needs to be on the members side?
I will also get a quote from my current source subject to final numbers.
I think it would be good if we also supplied those inline filters?
Should I start a new thread on the members forum now that we have prices?
I think supplying aeration accessories should be a separate GB (like the corny accessory buy). Some of us dont need that stuff so It will just hold up the GB for the air & regs imo.
Yeah I think that is fair enough Hop Bomb. I need that stuff but I'm happy enough to get it myself given that ye have kindly linked to the equipment.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 11:29:33 AM
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 22, 2013, 11:20:33 AM
This needs to be on the members side?
I will also get a quote from my current source subject to final numbers.
I think it would be good if we also supplied those inline filters?
Should I start a new thread on the members forum now that we have prices?
I think supplying aeration accessories should be a separate GB (like the corny accessory buy). Some of us don't need that stuff so It will just hold up the GB for the air & regs imo.
The mods can transfer this post across just as long as they leave a reminder as to where its gone
Fair point on the accessories probably better to keep it "clean" so.
Do mods want to transfer this over so?
Re: Accessories: I just rang Hop & Grape. They've 8 of those 2 micron SS air stones in stock. They'll do all 8 for 9.95 GBP each (normally 11.49 GBP)
Postage to Ireland is 4.58 GBP.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 11:45:20 AM
Do mods want to transfer this over so?
Re: Accessories: I just rang Hop & Grape. They've 8 of those 2 micron SS air stones in stock. They'll do all 8 for 9.95 GBP each (normally 11.49 GBP)
Postage to Ireland is 4.58 GBP.
They are not great looking at other forums in the US , ok for aquarium pumps.
0.5 is where its at when it come to pressurised tanks.
Ive a 0.5 but I got it from USA. If we GB those we'll get stung for customs. Maybe its best if people just sort that end themselves?
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on July 22, 2013, 10:29:04 AM
Brilliant. Well I'm definitely up for this. I'd also like to get a flow meter. This (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LZQ-3-flowmeter-0-5LPM-flow-meter-with-control-valve-for-Oxygen-air-gas-/231020288717?pt=Fish_Filters&var=&hash=item35c9e1dacd) is the cheapest I have been able to find so far.
good spot I bought one
Quote from: shiny on July 22, 2013, 10:31:26 AM
Where did everyone get their aeration stone? I'm thinking the stainless steel ones are superior to the ceramic ones?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280866354728&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:IE:3160
+1 for NORCAL. I bought my weldless dial thermometers from them.
I'd be in on this at that price too if there's room for another?
I bought a .5 ss stone from rebelbrewers.com along with some gaskets for my taps. They did a decent price on shipping for me after I emailed them. It took a while though.
The more the merrier.
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
Wholesale Welding Supplies rang & gave me their best price:
Regulators @ 23e all in
Oxygen @ 19.50e all in
Delivery for 1 box (no matter how many bottles/regs) @ 5.95e
This is probably a stupid question given that you said "all in", but do the prices above include VAT? If so, there is actually quite a good saving on this buy.
Yeah "all in" is incl VAT.
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby 01 x oxy bottle
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby 01 x oxy bottle
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
Anyone else for this GB? I wouldnt mind pulling the trigger on it soon.
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Dr Jacoby 01 x oxy bottle
3. Blackbrew
4. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
6. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. DEMPSEY
9. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
10. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
Sorry to make things awkward but I'm gonna have to take my name off this one. I ordered a bottle myself because I'm up against a tight deadline. If another list gets going in the future I'll probably sign up. In the meantime I can be the guinea pig for the club :)
1. Hop Bomb: 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator (ive two bottles to boost the numbers - if we get enough buyers il just get 1 bottle)
2. Blackbrew
3. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
4. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator(You can never have enough ;-))
5. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
6. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. DEMPSEY
8. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
9. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
No worries. Just got confirmation from oxy turbo re: capacity & pressure of the bottles.
Dear Mr. Delaney,
with reference to your inquiry below, please acknowledge that our disposable oxygen cylinders Ref. 480300 contain 0,93L oxygen, with a 110bar pressure.
Remaining at your complete disposal for any further request, please accept my
kindest regards,
I have received all the components of my oxygenation system. I'll take some pics tonight to give everyone a better idea of how it all fits together. Parcel motel really does rock!
Thanks to the "BeerTourist" aka. Adam here is a very interesting link about Medical v. Industrial Oxygen:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/air-versus-oxygen
If you cann't be Ar**d to read it there is speculation that Medical Oxy "may" contain fungicides ???
Medical Oxy means the stuff that BOC and the others supply to hospitals for general use on the wards, ER, and particularly the respitory wards (nebulisers and the like for the COPD peeps) Anesthetic grade for the OR would I am sure be different.
Next time I'm up in Ballymun I will ask BOC
If you go up one level there is a humungeous info base to read!
Here's my set-up using the 1 Litre bottle from Wholesale Welding (which was delivered in 2 days). I bought the regulator from a crowd in England (delivered in 3 days using Parcel Motel). The aeration wand is from Williams Brewing (a friend brought that back from America for me). The tubing is 5mm internal diameter (from B&Q). The barb on the regulator is 4mm. I'll need a jubilee clip to fix the tubing onto the regulator; it's a pretty loose connection as is. The regulator is not actually attached to the bottle in this pic.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/dudleyp/Beer%20-%20General/OxygenationSystem.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/dudleyp/media/Beer%20-%20General/OxygenationSystem.jpg.html)
Free shipping on this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LZQ-3-height-90MM-flowmeter-0-5-or-0-10LPM-flow-meter-for-Oxygen-air-gas-/231020727990?pt=Fish_Filters&var=&hash=item35c9e88eb6) flow meter. Very good price.
To find the best deals, use ebay.com (not .ie), search for "oxygen flow meter" and select "price + shipping: lowest first".
Looks good!
1. Hop Bomb: 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
2. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
3. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator (You can never have enough ;-))
4. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
6. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
Anyone else want in on the GB? Id like to get it wrapped up soon as Ive a lot of brewing to do when the new malt comes.
me!
1. Hop Bomb: 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
2. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
3. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator (You can never have enough ;-))
4. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
6. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. Blackbrew 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
Simple guide to building and using an oxygenation system
Before going through all the detail it's worth noting that a few of us have been working on this for a while now (special thanks to Hop Bomb, Ciderhead and Will_D for helping to move everything forward). We originally thought oxygen would be too expensive and difficult to source to make it worthwhile, but Ciderhead discovered that Wholesale Welding Ltd sell reasonably priced oxygen bottles and Will_D explained how these smaller bottles (which most of us had written off as not containing enough oxygen) actually had enough to oxygenate roughly 110 brews. It's been a great group effort to make all this possible, and extra kudos go to Hop Bomb for securing a fantastic group buy discount. Nice work lads!
Components
1. One Litre Oxy Turbo Bottle
- sourced from Wholesale Welding Supplies (http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=oxygen&product_id=2775)
- €19.50 group buy price
- pressurised to 110 bar.
2. Oxy Turbo Regulator
- sourced from Wholesale Welding Supplies (http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=oxygen&product_id=2863)
- €23.00 group buy price
- only fits oxy turbo bottles
- the outlet barb is 4mm in diameter
3. Aeration Stone
- widely available (e.g. Hop & Grape (http://hopandgrape.co.uk/public/detailv1.asp?itemcode=STA20069953))
- approximate cost will be €15 but if you look you should be able to get a better price
- .5 micron works best but 2 micron will work fine too (thanks to Ciderhead for advice on this front)
- easy to use if attached to an aeration wand that can extend to the bottom of the vessel (e.g. Williams Brewing system (http://www.williamsbrewing.com/22-AERATION-WAND-P490.aspx)).
- if you can't get a wand, you could use a keg dip tube as a frame for your tubing (idea courtesy of HopBomb).
- I think the barb on these stones is generally 5mm or 6mm
4. Tubing
- 5mm internal diameter tubing will do the trick
- I got mine in B&Q. It doesn't need to be rated for high pressures
- I can't remember how much I paid but it wasn't more than €3
5. Flow Meter
- you need a flow meter that can be adjusted to 0.5 - 2 litres per minute
- the flow meter goes inline between the regulator and the aeration stone
- I paid just under €12 for mine (shipping was free from China)
- for the cheapest option, use the following search:
a) go to ebay.com (not ebay.ie)
b) search for "oxygen flow meter"
c) filter the results by selecting "price + shipping: lowest first"
Total Cost
The approximate cost for the entire set-up is likely to be something along the following lines (I'm rounding everything up for caution's sake):
- Oxy turbo bottle - €22.00
- Regulator - €25.00
- Air Stone - €15.00
- Tubing - €3.00? (I can't remember how much I paid but it was pretty cheap PVC tubing)
- Flow Meter - €15.00
Total approximate cost (not including P&P): €80.00
This will cover you for roughly 110 brews (and more depending on what technique you use - see below).
Oxygen Requirements for Brewing Beer
Most beers are ideally oxygenated in the 8ppm - 15ppm range. The most you'll get into wort by shaking is about 8ppm, which roughly corresponds to the level of oxygen in the atmosphere. In Chris White's book Yeast (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yeast-Practical-Fermentation-Brewing-Elements/dp/0937381969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374835616&sr=1-1&keywords=yeast) (he's the owner of White Labs), the ideal injection rate for pure oxygen in a 1.077 wort is 1 litre per minute. This is the most efficient way to achieve the required 8-15ppm. For a weaker wort, say 1.040, and using the same flow rate of 1 litre per minute, you would only need about 40 seconds to achieve the same oxygen levels. If you decide to inject the oxygen at 0.5 litres per minute, you would need to double the injection time (i.e. 2 minutes for a 1.077 wort and roughly 80 seconds for a 1.040 wort). You get the idea...
These calculations assume that you have a way of controlling the flow rate. For this you must use a flow meter. If you do not, you will have no easy way to tell exactly how much oxygen is flowing through the regulator, which operates via a valve that has no built in gauge. I don't know enough about how oxygen behaves in a pressurized container to say how you might accurately estimate the level of oxygen being injected into a beer without a flow meter, but maybe somebody else does?
Please note that if you exceed the recommended upper limit of 15ppm in a medium strength wort you risk harming the yeast. Oxygen becomes toxic to yeast at higher levels. For very strong worts (say above 1.077) you can probably get away with slightly higher levels, but don't push it!
How to Oxygenate Wort
Once you have cooled your wort to pitching temperature there are two main methods of oxygenation.
1. The simple injection method
- boil your air stone for a few minutes and sanitise the attached wand (if using)
- open the regulator to release the oxygen (do this before submerging the air stone to ensure it doesn't flood with wort).
- force the air stone to the bottom of your fermentation vessel
- keep a close eye on a timer to ensure you don't over-oxygenate the wort
- if lots of bubbles break on the wort surface turn down the flow rate. These bubbles should burst inside the liquid.
- lift the air stone out
- close the regulator (only do this when the air stone is out of the wort to ensure that no wort seeps inside)
- rinse and boil the air stone to keep it clean and sanitary
2. The combined shake and inject method
- if your are stingy you might want to aerate the wort prior to topping up from you precious oxygen bottle
- shake the fermentation vessel vigorously to achieve roughly 7 or 8ppm
- complete the first 3 steps in the simple injection method
- top up the wort with a quick burst of oxygen (i.e. reduce the injection time by at least 2 thirds)
- follow the final three steps of the simple injection method
Safety Message
Please be very careful when using pure oxygen. It is highly flammable and if ignited will burn furiously. It should go without saying, but don't use it anywhere near a naked flame (or any other kind of flame for that matter 8) )
Ps. If anyone on the publishing team wants to throw this up on the wiki, go for it. Though if there are any suggestions for improvements, which I'm sure there will be, it might be better to wait a while and see what emerges.
1. Hop Bomb: 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
2. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
3. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator (You can never have enough ;-))
4. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
6. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. Blackbrew 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
9. Jacob 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
Nice one Peter.
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on July 26, 2013, 11:54:34 AM
but Hop Bomb discovered that Wholesale Welding Ltd sell reasonably priced oxygen bottles and Will_D explained how these smaller bottles (which most of us had written off as not containing enough oxygen) actually had enough to oxygenate roughly 110 brews. It's been a great group effort to make all this possible,
cough, chopped liver ;)
Ooops :-[
Tis a long thread and I was foggy on the details. Guided updated.
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on July 26, 2013, 02:10:55 PM
Ooops :-[
Tis a long thread and I was foggy on the details. Guided updated.
Pulling your leg, nice post :)
Quote from: Hop Bomb on June 14, 2013, 04:45:45 PM
For now Im just gauging interest for a potential group buy on the oxygen & regulators. If you think you might want to buy a tank & regulator stick your name below.
Do we want to turn this into a GB?
Yeah. Looks like 9 buyers is the final number. Il make a thread in the members forum now.
Can I get in on this? Make it an even 10?
ok
Done.
Hey Chris. Any chance you could post what you want in the thread on the members forum? Thanks
Where's it?
Here it is
http://nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,3355.15.html
Comment on the knowledge base article:
Assume you don't have a flow meter. Would the following work as a method for measuring flow rate:
Take vessel of known volume.
Fill with water.
Submerge in larger vessel.
Bubble O2 into vessel until known volume is reached.
Time how long it takes.
Then in the future, you could estimate flowrate based on that. The question is, is the flow from a cylinder always at the same rate or does it drop off as the cylinder empties. Does the rate depend on how open the valve is? Probably. So you'd always have to open the valve the same amount if the above method is of any use at all.
Yeah that would work Andrew, that was what I was going to do before I got my flow meter. I have a filter in-line with mine which means I need to turn the regulator a bit further than normal (~2 turns) so it was just less hassle to get the flow meter.
In terms of flow drop off, why not just repeat your test every 20 brews and see if it changes. If you were putting value on your time, the amount of it you will be spending messing/worrying about this would be offset 10 times over by spending a tenner on a flow meter...
Quote from: Hop Bomb on July 22, 2013, 10:51:21 AM
Ive got my stone & tubing inside a stainless spear I removed from a keg. Stiffer tubing wwand ould work also. You could weigh it down with a stainless nut/bolt? The wand is a much more elegant solution though.
Hi Hop Bomb
i read through the wiki article and while it's very good the one area i am not sure of is the construction of the wand. Would you mind taking some photos of your keg spear wand and provide a description/photos of how you made it .
Shanna
1. Hop Bomb: 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
2. McGrath 02 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
3. Ciderhead 01 x Oxy bottle, 01 x Regulator (You can never have enough ;-))
4. Shiny 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
5. Rossa 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
6. imark 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
7. Damofto 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
8. Blackbrew 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
9. Jacob 01 x oxy bottle , 01 x regulator
10. Ned 01 x oxy bottle, 01 x regulator
@Ned, this buy was 6 months ago.
What was the welding supplier's name johnrm? All those products are still available as of last week for a few euros more than the group buy price.
The group buy with wholesale welding supplies only saved each person 5 euros on the items plus whatever each person would have saved on postage. It wasnt massive but they gave us free p&p on the order & NHC express sorted the rest.
@ Shanna - Ive a stainless steel racking cane from hop & grape with some tubing rammed on the end. The air stone fits snuggly into the tubing. Il take a pic when Im home this eve.