South Dublin Brewers - Next Meet - Thur 30th July

[Bubbles]

Making a fresh batch of starsan each time you brew or bottle is important. Also ensuring you're making it at the right concentration.

[molc]

Funnily enough, I reuse my starsan for about 5 batches, though I make it with RO and ph test before every use. Also have a spray bottle for tools and use around the kitchen

[Bubbles]

I'm pretty paranoid about my starsan and how cloudy and smelly it gets after it's been hanging around for a long time. But then, I don't use RO water to make it up. It costs buttons and gives me piece of mind that there's no nasties on my gear.

[Shanna]

I have had one beer with a definite infection (acetobacter in Belgian golden ale) so I am not exactly typhoid Shanna just yet. I can't explain that one since I have not had anything since then.

Unfortunately, I've tasted several beers from you that I suspected were infected. The Irish Red you did for the GCB comp last year was so infected it was undrinkable. A cider you brought to the meet a couple of months ago was definitely infected also. And if I taste a beer at a SD meet that I think is infected, I always say it to the brewer. I think part of the problem here is that you are not tasting serious flaws and infections in your own beers.

The GCB amber is a perfect example. Three people at the meet told you it tasted solventy, but you dismissed that out of hand because you had fermented it under temperature control. This flaw was then confirmed by the judges at the comp. It's probably more worrying that you couldn't taste it yourself. How about tasting your own beers alongside a commercial example or two? Might be helpful.

My general experience is that at least one thing goes awry each & every brew day despite preparing several days in advance & using check lists of prior problems. Sometimes the problems are of my own making & sometimes they are equipment failures such as leaking tap, kettle element burning or pump failing. I am trying to keep a backup of most parts I am using to help avoid this. Will definitely be updating my brewing notes to put additional emphasis on the need for greater attention to yeast, sanitation. and temp control.

Notes are the best way to go. Keeping track of everything. Dissect every stage of your process - replace equipment where necessary, calibrate thermometers, take temp and gravity readings, use fresh everything (especially vials of yeast and hops) and above all, simplify your process! Messing about with HERMS and decoction is pointless until you can ferment a simple ale.

Apologies if this all this sounds a little harsh, it's well intended advice. 

Molc has a great point about your brewing shed. The other evening at the barrel fill, when I wasn't being eaten alive by bugs, I was looking at all the crud in that roof you want to get replaced. It looks pretty grim, I can't imagine it's a sanitary place to be preparing beer.

I appreciate the sentiment 're the beers but I would say that the beer in particular you refrenced were left in my shed under a galvanised roof where the temp had hit close to 40 & had turned as a result. Same beers stored in a fridge did not exhibit a problem. I suspect I might need to sometimes taste one or two of the beers before bringing to the meets but often they are new & I don't have an opportunity. I understand the shed is a bit crusty but you might remember I have been trying to get the roof replaced for some time now hence the urgency to get the barrel emptied. I take your point 're the solvent beer in that I could not necessarily taste it but having a shit pallet is not necessarily the source of shit beer My reaction to it not being temperature related was because I fermented it in a temperature controlled fridge. I was dismissive of the explanation & not that it had a solvent after taste. I will be replacing the shed roof soon so that should help improve my brewing environment. Appreciate the candour & don't worry CH I have thick skin.

Shanna

[Bubbles]

It's fair to say that no beer is going to be tasting it's best after sitting in a hot shed for a long time.

Regarding the solvent flavour, could it be that you're over oxygenating the wort? I'm not sure if over oxygenation is related to fusel production, but you might have a google and see. The temp controlled fridge is fair enough, but is there any possibility that you pitched too warm? Fusels are much more likely to be created at the start of fermentation. Other than that, you're looking at underpitching of yeast being the problem.

If you agree the shed might be the problem, would you consider boiling a smaller batch indoors? At least you would be able to cross it off the list if it turns out okay. I have a 20 litre stockpot that you can borrow.

I'd knock the dishwasher on the head also - I can't imagine much water can get up into the bottles, leaving crud still in them. I'd err on the side of caution and buy a couple of boxes of bottles in alpack. That would be another thing you could tick off the list.

[Shanna]

It's fair to say that no beer is going to be tasting it's best after sitting in a hot shed for a long time.

Regarding the solvent flavour, could it be that you're over oxygenating the wort? I'm not sure if over oxygenation is related to fusel production, but you might have a google and see. The temp controlled fridge is fair enough, but is there any possibility that you pitched too warm? Fusels are much more likely to be created at the start of fermentation. Other than that, you're looking at underpitching of yeast being the problem.

If you agree the shed might be the problem, would you consider boiling a smaller batch indoors? At least you would be able to cross it off the list if it turns out okay. I have a 20 litre stockpot that you can borrow.
.
I'd knock the dishwasher on the head also - I can't imagine much water can get up into the bottles, leaving crud still in them. I'd err on the side of caution and buy a couple of boxes of bottles in alpack. That would be another thing you could tick off the list.

The bottles go in the top shelf of the dishwasher and get a load of water in them & the temp is 65C for a two hour plus cycle. I have a stock pot that I occassionally use for extract brewing so need to borrow but thanks for the offer. I have already checked & chucked a bucket full of bottles & also a load of old hops. Pitching temp is about 20-22C then in to a temp controlled fridge. I find it very difficult to get it below that temperature with the water supply I have. I recently added a 2nd chiller & plan to start using them both in the boiler going forward. I was experimenting with using the 1st inline with the 2nd where the first was placed in an ice bath but it does not make a huge difference. I am going to try using them both together going forward. From what I have read the yeast stress is a cause of solvent flavours & also poor temperature control. Byo article here references too much O2 as a source of solvent flavours. See

http://byo.com/grains/item/2836-high-alcohol-beers-mr-wizard

I know from previous beers that I was getting about 80% plus efficiency from setup that was always over & above the 70% I had in beer Smith. Its only in the last two beers (larger & American Ipa) that I did that I upped the efficiency & dialled down the recipe & have hit the expectant numbers. I honestly thought the solvent in the American Amber I did was due to too high alcohol due to it being over 7% prior to bottling. Next beer I am planning is another American IPA from a kit that I am due from a raffle prize. Will brew it on the hob , bottle as normal but dial back the O2. If I still get problems its likely the bottle sanitation. If not then it's probably the overall shed environment.

Once again thanks for the constructive feedback.

Shanna

[molc]

I've had one batch go solventy from an underpitch before so it's def something to watch. Like yourself, it happened as I was dialling in my all grain mashing and I went way over the og. Nowadays I keep sparging until I hit my target and watch the ph to make sure I'm not over extracting.

For cooling, I get to 17-20 from the immersion cooler and then pop it into the fermentation fridge, only pitching when it hits the temp I want. It can sit for a few hours before pitching without much danger from everything I've read and that's much better than pitching warm.

Turning into an interesting thread here. Good to compare notes.

[Shanna]

I've had one batch go solventy from an underpitch before so it's def something to watch. Like yourself, it happened as I was dialling in my all grain mashing and I went way over the og. Nowadays I keep sparging until I hit my target and watch the ph to make sure I'm not over extracting.

For cooling, I get to 17-20 from the immersion cooler and then pop it into the fermentation fridge, only pitching when it hits the temp I want. It can sit for a few hours before pitching without much danger from everything I've read and that's much better than pitching warm.

Turning into an interesting thread here. Good to compare notes.

As I brew late I honestly have neither the time nor the patients to wait for the fridge to drop the temp. Been toying with the idea of getting a stainless steel cannister that I can sanitize & fill with ice. The idea would be to add it to the boiler right at the end to get the temperature below 20. Unfortunately have not found anything suitable yet. if the 2 chillers don't do it then I might try get something custom made up.

Shanna

[molc]

Or go straight to counterflow with an ice bath cooling the water. That will certainly drop the temp and also it's faster with less stuff to put in your brewpot.
Edit: I recently got Gordon Strings new book and he goes through his process step by step with detail on why he does each one. It might be a good read for you, as it addresses a lot of the points you're bringing up and seems like a good starting point if you're trying to fix problems. Reading it has totally changed my ideas on how to chill wort for instance, as now I'm going to try to disturb the wort as little as possible to settle out the hops as well as reduce the number of items that come into contact with it before it gets to the fermentor.

[Bubbles]

As I brew late I honestly have neither the time nor the patients to wait for the fridge to drop the temp.

Just thinking out loud, but this could be the reason why you're possibly pitching your yeast too warm and end up withsolvent flavours in your beer. Patience is everything in brewing.

Been toying with the idea of getting a stainless steel cannister that I can sanitize & fill with ice. The idea would be to add it to the boiler right at the end to get the temperature below 20.

This makes your brewing process even more complex, and introduces yet another possible source of infection into your beer - one more thing to sanitise.

[Shanna]

As I brew late I honestly have neither the time nor the patients to wait for the fridge to drop the temp.

Just thinking out loud, but this could be the reason why you're possibly pitching your yeast too warm and end up withsolvent flavours in your beer. Patience is everything in brewing.

Been toying with the idea of getting a stainless steel cannister that I can sanitize & fill with ice. The idea would be to add it to the boiler right at the end to get the temperature below 20.

This makes your brewing process even more complex, and introduces yet another possible source of infection into your beer - one more thing to sanitise.

Patients is a virtue but unfortunately it takes time Pitching slightly warm is definitely a strong possibility &  temperature of water for cooling continues to be a problem that I am actively trying to sort out. Molc suggestion is simple/effective way to me to the cooler temp. Might as well let the fridge do the work. Personally like to start/finish something in one go because when trying to switch I tend to forget steps or make a balls of things Thanks again.

Shanna

[Bubbles]

Very sensible advice from young molc there.

I'd also advise making a list of process improvements before you start your next brew, so that you can attempt to nail the issue in one go. Then maybe a checklist for when you're actually brewing the beer. Then don't even think about scratching your arse until you consult the checklist.

If you want to post the list, people might be able to make suggestions.

[Bubbles]

Right, here's a starter for you..

In advance
Source a tried and trusted recipe of a simple, moderate gravity ale (1.040 - 1.050) (Jamil Zainasheff, Graham Wheeler etc.)
Calibrate ONE thermometer and use it throughout your brew
Source clean, preferably new, bottles
Purchase fresh vial of yeast
Purchase fresh hops
Make yeast starter, allowing sufficient time to do its thing on the stir plate. Monitor temperature before pitching and especially during fermentation on the stir plate. Measure OG & FG of starter.

Brew Day
Wort chiller in 15 mins before end of boil
Cover wort while it is cooling to minimize airborne nasties from getting in
Take temperature of wort before pitching yeast. 18C for American ale yeast, 18-20C for English/Belgian strains

Fermentation
Monitor temp during fermentation

Bottling
Make fresh batch of starsan and sanitise bottles. (I immerse all my bottles in batches for 30 secs, recommended by the owner of Five Star Chemicals in an interview with Basic Brewing Radio)
Boil priming solution for 10 mins
Drain bottles on sanitised rack

[Shanna]

Right, here's a starter for you..

In advance
Source a tried and trusted recipe of a simple, moderate gravity ale (1.040 - 1.050) (Jamil Zainasheff, Graham Wheeler etc.)
Calibrate ONE thermometer and use it throughout your brew
Source clean, preferably new, bottles
Purchase fresh vial of yeast
Purchase fresh hops
Make yeast starter, allowing sufficient time to do its thing on the stir plate. Monitor temperature before pitching and especially during fermentation on the stir plate. Measure OG & FG of starter.

Brew Day
Wort chiller in 15 mins before end of boil
Cover wort while it is cooling to minimize airborne nasties from getting in
Take temperature of wort before pitching yeast. 18C for American ale yeast, 18-20C for English/Belgian strains

Fermentation
Monitor temp during fermentation

Bottling
Make fresh batch of starsan and sanitise bottles. (I immerse all my bottles in batches for 30 secs, recommended by the owner of Five Star Chemicals in an interview with Basic Brewing Radio)
Boil priming solution for 10 mins
Drain bottles on sanitised rack

Have a checklist already that includes 90% of what you listed. Will post before next brew. One question how do you clean your bottles and do you clean them in one go.

Shanna

[molc]

Right, here's a starter for you..

In advance
Make yeast starter, allowing sufficient time to do its thing on the stir plate. Monitor temperature before pitching and especially during fermentation on the stir plate. Measure OG & FG of starter.

Bottling
Boil priming solution for 10 mins

Quick questions:
Do you keep a probe in your starter while it is growing on the stir plate? Do you temperature control your stir plate environment.

For priming, I microwave sugar in a small amount of kettle boiled water for 2 mins, then add while siphoning the beer into a bottling bucket. I'm working under the assumption that microwaves kill most bugs and the liquid is boiling by the end. Is this a bad idea and also I wonder could it be extended to making starters.