Rebellious Lambic - AKA Old English October Beer...

[johnrm]

So would Billys Barrel be good for this? We need to see what stage Sam is at with it.

[LordEoin]

I thought that barrell had more tourdates than bill clinton before eventually going to a grave of smoking bacon or something...
Like Garry, I also have space for a longterm fixture but it would be in no way climate controlled. It would be shoved into the corner of a shed and covered in a tarp.

[Taf]

I thought that barrell had more rourdates than bill clinton before eventually going to a grave of smoking bacon or something...
Like Garry, I also have space for a longterm fixture but it would be in no way climate controlled. It would be shoved into the corner of a shed and covered in a tarp.

I don't think smoking bacon will actually be the complete death of it, as think he actually means to make the smoker out of the barrel, rather than break it up and smoke the chips. Don't think I would be happy to see it just broken up for chips.

[mr hoppy]

Would Billy's barrel be suitable - I'd imagine it would be. The whiskey flavour should be going now and while oak flavour isn't out of place in sours the main reason for using barrels is that they let a small amount of oxygen in over a long period of time because they are made of wood rather than non-porous glass or highly porous HDPE.

Is temperature control required - I'd say temp control is not a big deal at all.

What I'm most concerned about - both for this idea or for the lambic is how we get a pitchable quantity of sour "yeast" culture. The recommended approach is to buy a pitchable quantity. This is because bacteria grows faster than yeast so that stepping a culture up results in the wrong balance of bugs and yeast.

[johnrm]

Are we talking about foimenting in the Barrel or aging in the barrel?
If primary is taking place in individual fermenters, then each participating brewer is going to have to put aside a fermenter.
I have just been handed 6 old fermenters so can ferment multiple batches, but limited to 28L boils for the mo.

[mr hoppy]

Secondary in barrel. I think it would be possible to formulate the recipe to do a clean ferment in the primary and sour in the secondary. This is the way a lot of flemish browns and Orval are done.

[mr hoppy]

Just wondering if it's going to taste smokey if the barrel's been used as a smoker?

That would be an interesting twist.

[johnrm]

Don't even think about it. At 200L there will be no twists!
Flanders red.

[mr hoppy]

If the barrel's been used as a smoker it is what it is.

[johnrm]

If it's the barrel from the RIS, Let's see what Sam is doing with it.
If it had been smoked we can get another one to keep it clean unless we want a Smokey beer.

[mr hoppy]

Hmm, looks like making a smoker out of a barrel involves cutting doors into it which sounds fairly irreversible. What does anyone think?

http://www.ehow.com/way_5857920_homemade-whiskey-barrel-smoker.html

[mr hoppy]

Wood barrels in particular provide a healthy sanctuary for brettanomyces, acetobacter and lactic cultures. The coarse texture of the wood provides good living space. Also, the wood sugar cellubiose is a food for brettanomyces. As such, any life that makes a home in your barrel may well survive any cleaning efforts on your part. Use of a barrel previously used by a distiller gives you the best neutral start. Barrels previously used for wine are more likely to contain some microorganisms, as well as flavor that will become part of your beer.

From here

http://www.thebeveragepeople.com/pdf/webbeerpdf/BrewingWithBarrels.pdf

Interesting piece on barrels generally

http://morebeer.com/public/pdf/wbarrel.pdf

Powerpoint presentation from a (real) expert on sour beers (not specifically Flemish Red) but a good introduction generally:
www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew.../RRsour_beer_presentation.ppt

[Taf]

Hasn't been used for a smoker yet, and that will only happen when we are finished with it. Once the black ipa comes out of it, will come back to me, so options open, but needs to be used for something interesting, if I am going to not be getting bacon from it.

[johnrm]

When will Sam be flushing the barrel?
We will need to be ready for this. We can't leave out sit idle for too long between batches.

[mr hoppy]

Ok, would strongly recommend people try to get a taste of Rodenbach, Rodenbach Grand Cru, Duchesse de Bourgogne or at least an Oud Bruin like Liefmanns or Bacchus before commiting to this - generally some of these beers are available in the Abbott (some relatively cheaply).

In terms of recipes:
Graham Wheeler, Rodenbach Grand Cru - the good thing about this recipe is it's got pale malt as the base:

25 litres

Pale malt 4950g
Flaked maize 1450g
Caramunich 700g
Chocolate (1000 SRM) 100g

OG: 1064

16 IBU from 35 g of Goldings 5.3% AA at 90 minutes. This could be any noble hop really and the IBUs could be up to 25 if preferred.

Mash - recommends a step mash but this isn't necessary for flaked maize so a single infusion at 65 - 67 should be an ok compromise for everyone. (Edit: I see herethat Jeff Sparrow who wrote Wild Brews suggests a 70 degree single infusion as an alternative, so that's probably a good idea).

Yeast - I'd say S-33 in primary and secondary (great yeast for malt flavours) but Notty or US-05 would be ok, and lots of Wyeast 3763 ROESELARE blend in the tertiary (barrel) - I assume Homebrewwest would be able to get it in specially from Brouwland - can ask.

Alternatively we could do something with Vienna or Munich malt as the base (the Wild Brews recipes are like this but I don't have it to hand right now) lighter Weyermanns Cara malts and not Chocolate - but I'd imagine folks have plenty of pale malt so the GW recipe is probably better that way although some Special B might be nice as well.

Jamil's recipe - not too keen, doesn't use pale malt or flaked maize:
http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/jamils-flanders-red-ale