National Homebrew Club Ireland

After getting a proper temp controlled fermentation chamber I've decided I want to do a lager. Been reading around about different fermentation methods used by people. I like the sound of some of the quicker methods so I can free up the chamber again quicker but I also don't want to run before I can walk with lagers. Anyone got experience with these quick methods or any advice in general beyond the standard for lager fermentation?

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/
This works for me in my brief lager experience. That article articulates itself well

That was the one I was planning on using, it seems quick, I've heard a lot of people have had success with it and he has it mapped out in detail.

Good to hear someone here saying it works too.

Post how you get on haven't seen that one, I've tried a few techniques and settled on the Pat. Pending Bren Murph method for giving best results, long and slow, long and slow ladies.

How's that schedule go CH?

3 weeks primary diacetyl rest 3 days
4 weeks secondary from 12 down to 2 on a profile
Then Min 4 weeks conditioning

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/30/b5ce054077fe7c720ee194d2e34b4d9b.jpg)

This one is a bit green as its only 2 weeks into conditioning but she is hacking a pint every other night :(

Just a followup on this. I used the quick lager method that Simon posted above and did a schwarzbier with it. We got Gordon Strong to judge it when he was over at just under 3 months and he detected no lagering issues or off flavours. Personally I was getting a little green apple in the aroma for the first one to two months but otherwise it was clear.

I think if Gordon doesn't pick up on an off flavour, we can say the method Def works.

Would be interesting to compare a quick and slow lager at the same age to see if one makes a better beer though.

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I used the quick lagering method many times (except when I accidentally used Kolsch yeast!) Its worked great everytime. My keezer has three active taps and so the beers get a good maturation in that

I use this quick method also. works well.
Its worth noting that in a more recent post the Brulosopher guy does lengthen the fermentation time by a couple of days compared to his original post.

He doesnt mention why its different, so i dont know if he found issues.

What lager temps are people using? I see Gordon Strong's new book recommend -1 to 1 but the defrost cycle on my fridge has it cycling between 0.5 and 3.


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2 for prolonged period

Define prolonged. 1 week per 4 sg or something else?

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My schedule
10-12 for 3-4 weeks ferment subject to gravity will determine if I go for 4
2 days diacetyl rest at 16
Then over 30 days down to 2
At 2 for min 4 weeks, preferably 10-12.

Thanks CH. Sorry forall the questions but what temp are you pitching at!

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Here to answer!
I ferment my very large Pilsner starters 3-5l  low at same as my ferment temp.
Lots ferment Pilsner starters at 18 :(
Always pitch whatever you are brewing ale or lager within 5 degrees ideally 3. This is to maintain as much yeast health as you can without losing percentages to thermal shock.
Mine are always done as close as I can get.
If my water temp is too high I put it in the fridge for a couple of hours or on the last one I used a beer cooler for the last 10 degrees

Thanks, plenty to think about there.


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I've tried 16 straight down to 2 and also in my early brews just leaving at 10, just not the same, beer was ok just not what really works for me now.
Early days it was adjust stc half a degree each time,which was a pain, now Brewpi or flashed stc courtesy of Prof Davis.
I read somewhere that fermentation in lagers can continue down to 5 or 6 degrees.
It's a bit like my ales I find the sweet spot for consumption is somewhere between 2 and 4 months after pitching, with lagers I find it's 4-6 months.

Quote from: CH on May 07, 2016, 12:34:00 AM
My schedule
10-12 for 3-4 weeks ferment subject to gravity will determine if I go for 4
2 days diacetyl rest at 16
Then over 30 days down to 2
At 2 for min 4 weeks, preferably 10-12.

Do you rack before or after diacetyl rest? 

Quote from: Motorbikeman on May 11, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
Do you rack before or after diacetyl rest? 

I follow this:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

After the d-rest and lagering

I just did the brulosophy lager method. Used Hessian Pils yeast, fermented at 12 for 4 days or until just under 50% attenuation then ramped up to 20C for D rest of 3 days at which point I was also at my full attenuation then ramp down to 0C for a 2 week chill. That was a month ago, had the first one last night and it was perfect. Lunacy waiting 4-6 months for a lager.

Quote from: garciaBernal on May 11, 2016, 03:12:55 PM
Lunacy waiting 4-6 months for a lager.

ROFL!!  O0

I usually go low and slow too. Pitch at 6C or 7C, let rise to 9C or 10C until fermentation is complete. I don't bother with a diacetyl rest as it's usually not necessary if you brew everything cleanly and choose the right strains. Then I'll lower by a degree a day to -1C or -2C and condition for at least 4 weeks. My sweet spot is 6 weeks after pitching - that's when the fresh cracker/bready flavour is at it's peak.

Recently I brewed a low abv lager for a mate using dried yeast. I pitched at 15C and fermented at 12C for two weeks. I conditioned for only 3 weeks and the resulting beer was amazingly clean (but quite boring).

The point is, there are probably many ways to skin the cat. A lot depends on choice of yeast and personal preferences. Lots of homebrew lager I taste doesn't have the lovely bready character that you should be getting from pilsner malt - most lagers are supposed to be clean but not flavourless! Work out a procedure for achieving that with a given strain and you'll be laughing. 

Quote from: Pheeel on May 11, 2016, 03:09:29 PM

Quote from: Motorbikeman on May 11, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
Do you rack before or after diacetyl rest? 

I follow this:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

After the d-rest and lagering

I have a 1.051 lager in the fridge for 13 days now.  sitting at 12 degrees,   
Would I be able to ramp down using that method   even if I have gone passed 50% attenuation?    Or does the schedule have to be followed religiously..   

Quote from: garciaBernal on May 11, 2016, 03:12:55 PM
Lunacy waiting 4-6 months for a lager.

Oh balls your right! gold at the nationals last year and gold cat 4 and 5 this year I must be doing something wrong :P
You are right if you want something in a hurry fast track it, I love reading the guys on here doing turbo cider each to his own just not my thing.


@Dr J, diacetyl rest I do is just a safety net and probably not needed at all but with time invested in each batch I'm not brave enough to skip it, besides the whole thing is automated with Brewpi in any case ;D
I see on the attached Helles I did a 3 day rest.

I respect your patience waiting that long so fair play. I've no interest in investing that amount of time in a beer just to win a medal but congratulations. I disagree that it's fast tracking just as I do agree that your way has benefits. There is a good list of Irish craft lagers at the minute and all are extremely well made in my opinion but how long on average do you reckon they sit on them from mash-in to bottle on the shelf? It aint 4-6 months.

Quote from: garciaBernal on May 11, 2016, 04:43:57 PM
There is a good list of Irish craft lagers at the minute and all are extremely well made in my opinion

Name one  ;)

Troubles Passionfruit. O'Haras Helles, St. Mels Helles, Metalmans Equinox and on and on!! There's arguments for and against depending what your end goal is I guess.

Quote from: garciaBernal on May 11, 2016, 05:04:34 PM
Troubles Passionfruit. O'Haras Helles, St. Mels Helles, Metalmans Equinox and on and on!! There's arguments for and against depending what your end goal is I guess.

I have to disagree with you on all those even Troubles Passionfruit that I was drinking at the AGM.
They are all easy drinkers but I keep comparing these to Weihenstephaner and for balance I have not tasted anything in this market that comes close yet.
You hit the nail on the head though even Weihenstephaners beer is cellar matured for 30 days so I guess that's the difference.

Well here's the challenge then. Take one of those gold medal lagers and brew it both ways. It would be a great experiment and my gut says the results could be an eye opener.
Even fermenting quick, a good lager still needs a nice long cold conditioning of at least 30 days I feel. From what I can see though, doing a quick ferment should still make a like for like result.

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Quote from: CH on May 11, 2016, 04:25:02 PM
@Dr J, diacetyl rest I do is just a safety net and probably not needed at all but with time invested in each batch I'm not brave enough to skip it, besides the whole thing is automated with Brewpi in any case ;D
I see on the attached Helles I did a 3 day rest.

I hear you on the diacetyl rest. It can't hurt.

The fermentation profile you use is a tricky one to master. Fair fucks to you. It's the classic German lager technique.  All rests on keeping the yeast active which can be difficult. I've done it a couple of times myself but gave it up because it's a lot of work. I'll be hooking up a brewpi controller this summer though so might give it another whirl then.

Quote from: molc on May 11, 2016, 05:42:30 PM
Well here's the challenge then. Take one of those gold medal lagers and brew it both ways. It would be a great experiment and my gut says the results could be an eye opener.


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Garcia do you fancy a "lager off" to the same recipe? you'll have to give me a 4 month head start tho

Quote from: CH on May 11, 2016, 09:45:21 PM

Quote from: molc on May 11, 2016, 05:42:30 PM
Well here's the challenge then. Take one of those gold medal lagers and brew it both ways. It would be a great experiment and my gut says the results could be an eye opener.


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Garcia do you fancy a "lager off" to the same recipe? you'll have to give me a 4 month head start tho

You crack away there and let me know when there's a month left!

Figured out what I was doing wrong and now have my brew lagering at 0^oC.

So, I have a question. Everything I read says that beer lagers faster at lower temperatures.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much faster?

There was a bit in Gordon strongs most recent book. I think the difference between 1 and 4C can add as much as 3 months to conditioning time? Need to check again though as its a fuzzy recollection.

I can't get the fridge down lower than about 4C. Damn energy efficient modern appliances.

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I saw that but it didn't seem very specific.

In fact the only place I've looked that was specific about the effect of temperature on lagering durations was How to Brew - which got it the wrong way round. ???

Quote from: mr hoppy on May 12, 2016, 09:01:22 PM
Figured out what I was doing wrong and now have my brew lagering at 0^oC.

So, I have a question. Everything I read says that beer lagers faster at lower temperatures.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much faster?

Would it not turn a bit icy at that temp?   

I lager at -2 most of the time without any issues

Quote from: Motorbikeman on May 12, 2016, 09:46:29 PM
Would it not turn a bit icy at that temp?   

Freezing temperature of alcohol is lower than water. The more alcohol the lower you can lager.

http://maltingandbrewing.com/freezing-point-of-beer.html

Quote from: mr hoppy on May 12, 2016, 09:01:22 PM
Figured out what I was doing wrong and now have my brew lagering at 0^oC.

So, I have a question. Everything I read says that beer lagers faster at lower temperatures.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much faster?

It's not as simple as just looking at temp. If your yeast are still active,  they will clean up the beer faster at higher temps. But other reactions happen faster at lower temps that help to clean up other aspects of the beer. The Germans try to keep the yeast active at very low temps to get the best of both worlds. But there are other approaches. As with most things in brewing, there's a balance to be struck and more than one way to achieve it.

Any suggestons on where I might get more insights...

Quote from: mr hoppy on May 12, 2016, 10:15:57 PM
Any suggestons on where I might get more insights...

http://www.amazon.com/New-Brewing-Lager-Beer-Comprehensive/dp/0937381829

That is one of the advanced reads recommended by the BJCP when going for national and master ranks, so should be a good source of info. It's pretty technical.

Great book and a go to reference, and not just for lagers, but I'm a not sure I'm totally confident interpreting what it says about the effect of temperature on lagering. 2 paragraphs over 300 pages that say that if you lager low you have to lager shorter. It talks about lagering for 3-7 days per 2 points plato for low / mid strength beers and 7-12 days for stronger beers. So if I do a 1048 SG / 12^o beer does that mean I'm lagering it for 18 days?

18 days at 1C would sound about right to me. Never hurts to go longer but it should be ready in that time.

Let the lager experts speak up and cite sources on this one. I only know what I've read and don't have much experience on these.

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Below is my temp fermentation profile, work well for me and has a two week turn around with optional extra lagering


(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XhU1l0wlF6o/VtgGt0ME_zI/AAAAAAAAGBI/Al0h4M02IjY/s640/Blue%2Bbolix%2Bmill%2B%2B8.jpg)

That's exactly how I do it as well.

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Huh. I had forgotten about Narziss. I don't bother me arse with that though

Quote from: molc on May 13, 2016, 08:31:01 AM
18 days at 1C would sound about right to me. Never hurts to go longer but it should be ready in that time.

Let the lager experts speak up and cite sources on this one. I only know what I've read and don't have much experience on these.

In the past I've  gone with 7 days per 2 degrees plato with a fridge that struggled to get below 3^oC. I'm no medal winning lager brewer but I got 30 with a brew done that way. I'll give it 24 days (4 x 6) and put it down as an experiment if it sucks.

Set another one off today in the new conical, god bless this ship etc.
Had a mare trying to get temp down and using immersion chiller even with whirlpool, wouldn't budge below 19, water temp was 12, in end filled 36l into conical and let the fridge do the last hard bit.
You can see where I pitched with the fridge door open at just under 14, its already at 12 now so no damage done.
Gas mark 7 and keg in August :).

Ohh .  Im  doing one of those next week using the fast track way. 

Race ya.. 

What's the recipe and I'll put one on at the start of July.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeZe2qPLPh0

Quote from: mr hoppy on May 13, 2016, 08:49:18 PMI'll give it 24 days (4 x 6) and put it down as an experiment if it sucks.

Definite diacetyl, particularly at higher temps but it's a Czech dark style so not a big deal - kind of like the diacetyl in  GFES. Maybe not got the depth of a proper lager but not sure. Will try again with a German yeast and a more pilsy grain bill and will report back.

Happily bubbling away +\- 0.04 of a degree and a small squirt of fan and fridge every hour.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160527/0dad5e952c9747ff790f83c381ac0705.jpg)

hot afternoons causing chaos with me poor brewpi

Jaysus, mad temp swings there; must be a whole 0.12°C - yeasties will be mighty upset

Really do love the aul BrewPi.

 When  is it due to finish?  ?

August

Right, sick of the guessing game on this one, so going to do the Brulophsy exp. myself with a helles. Traditional method this weekend, quick lager in about 6 weeks. Let the games begin :)

Will you be serving everyone in Fowlers 3 opaque cups?

If we can find some, sure! :)

Just leaving this here
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-homebrewing-lager/

Whats the warmest temperature you'd want to be lagering at if you transferred finished beer to a corny?

It's time dependent really
I'd say 5-6, 3-4 months, outside in Nov-Feb  covered from winter sun in shade of house works.
Ideally 3 which is what most domestic fridges do easily 2 months maybe
0 -1 if you have a keezer and a month

Food for thought  :)