Do you guys bother with balancing your beer lines? Seems like it's impossible to find 3/16" ID tubing over here, so to have a properly balanced line you'd have to have 40'+ of beer line hanging around in your fridge.
How do you guys deal with this? Reduce pressure and purge every time you want a pint?
Huh? Carb at 1 bar for 7-10 days set your co2 to 5 psi to serve and regulate your flow for serving perfect pints
4-5 ft of 5/16ths for stout 3/8ths for everything else simples
Interesting... A lot of information here I haven't heard before.
The understanding I had was that it's best to keep your beer line balanced to the carbonation you want (generally 10-15 PSI), but you're saying you just balance your lines to 5 PSI and then store your beer like that after it's carbonated? Do you ever have problems with losing carbonation over time?
And I'm assuming you mean the sizes that are available from thehomebrewcompany and other stores like it (ie. you're talking about the outer diameter and not the inner diameter)? I'm currently using about 10' of 5/16" tubing to serve a hefeweizen and have trouble pouring pints at anything past 2-3 PSI.
The 5 psi for me is for serving not storage for long durations, co2 coming out of solution with a positive head of pressure and cold takes quite a while.
Do your taps have restrictors?
Can you post pics of your set-up?
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/
I'm interested in this also, from a slightly different angle. According to the calculators, I need my reg at 12 psi to get 2.4 vol carbonation at 6c. But I find I need to keep my reg at about 20 psi to get the level I'd expect. This works OK with the flow control taps but would still probably be more managable at the recommended 12psi. 99.9% sure no leaks, could the reg be faulty?
Also craiclad, I'd check with thehomebrewcompany that the 3/16 line they stock is in fact OD as listed and not ID. ID seems to be more common at this size so maybe theyve mislisted it?
Try and borrow a reg from a pal just to check your pressures, I do believe older ones drift.
Don't forget to change your profile pic :P
http://fortune.com/2015/09/08/heineken-lagunitas-craft/
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 08, 2015, 08:23:39 PM
Don't forget to change your profile pic :P
http://fortune.com/2015/09/08/heineken-lagunitas-craft/
Just means more lagunitas for me :)
Ciderhead, how often do you switch it back up to carbing pressure? After every pour, after every session, or just when not serving for a few days?
I have 5 foot of 3/8 line - you can drink it at 5 psi but find that my beer is undercarbed.
At 6 degrees celcius it should be at 12 psi to be at 2.5 bar pressure. http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php
Quote from: Beermonger on September 08, 2015, 09:17:51 PM
Ciderhead, how often do you switch it back up to carbing pressure? After every pour, after every session, or just when not serving for a few days?
My keezer is set to 5 Degrees and I put back on pressure after the session the next day or so.
So if you are serving from the same keg each day (like I'm doing while waiting for other brews to be done), you never really turn it up again?
Not sure I understand the question?
I don't normally drink midweek :o so it goes back on monday to fri
Just to also say that some styles like english bitter should be served in the 5-9 psi area as too much carbonation with light bodied beers can make them seem thin, harsh and watery.
Whenever I think of an adjustment to the keg system, I have to pour some beer... and I don't want to throw it out. So the worse it pours, the more I drink ;).
Just to back up a bit:
They've 3/16, 3/8, 5/16 OD hard tubing on HBC listed as "BEER/GAS LINE 3/16" (etc.) O.D. - PER METRE (HARD)"
I think the OD is correct, as its makes sense to give ODs for hard tubing that may be required to couple with push fittings like JG (which are obviously specified on the OD of the tube). I hope it is anyway, I've just ordered some.
Further down the page (https://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/beer-wine-equipment-beer-line-pvc-tubing-c-2_89.html), there's polythene tubing - not really intended for push fittings - which is listed by the ID. Well, except for the 5/16" one that doesn't say whether it's ID or OD. I know it's the ID because I just went and bought 20 metres of it and have to return it now!
This issue is the major thing I'm trying to fix in my beer system right now. I've loads of trouble getting anything but foam serving at 11 psi (=2.25 vol at 6*C) through a 40 cm diameter coil of 3/8 OD (~1/4 ID) hard tubing. There's about 7 loops in the coil (see photo), meaning there must be about 9 metres of line there (trapping ~300 ml in the line, so I rarely get a fresh pour). And that's for just one keg! I plan on up to 6 tapped kegs, and maybe 8 when I build a collar on the chest freezer. There's no way I'm installing 6 or more 40-cm wide coils of hard line (which is heavy and awkward and has sometimes pulled on the qds, causing foaming) totalling 60 m in length. Madness!
So I've a couple of ideas. Maybe some of these will help the OP or someone else with this problem (or me:) :
* I ordered some 5/16 tubing (and 5/16-3/8 JG adaptors). This should be about 3/16 ID, compared to the 3/8 OD which has about 1/4 ID. Hopefully that will up the resistance a bit. If the values quoted online are right, I should be able to do with a meter or two.
* I chilled the fridge down from 6* to 2.6*. This actually lets me serve without foam at 8 psi (which should still give 2.3 vols). Problems: the beer's a little colder than I like it (but it warms up anyway), I still have 9 metres of line, and ... it doesn't taste as carbonated as 2.3 vols. I think I need a new reg. But if the reg is showing high, my foaming problem will be worse when I get an accurate reg ;)
* There's a discussion on homebrewtalk (can't find it now) that developed in an interesting way. First, someone suggested adding tubing to the end of the dip tube. This is a bit of a pain, but led someone to come up with the idea of inserting epoxy mixing nozzles into the dip tube (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=100151). Read the thread, it seems to work great. And there's a better idea mentioned there as well: put 3/16 OD hard tubing into the diptube instead of the nozzles. That's what I'll be trying. I'd love to increase the resistance in the keg and go with short lines. It would also let you carbonate Belgians or whatever and serve them with the same short tubing as everything else: just customize the dip tube insert (you might find you need 6" for 2.5 vol beer and 9" for 3.5 vol, for example).
craiclad, sorry to hijack the thread. It seems like we're dealing with the exact same problem—and we're not the only ones—so I thought it might be worth sharing what I've tried.
Quote from: craiclad on September 08, 2015, 07:59:15 AM
Seems like it's impossible to find 3/16" ID tubing over here
This should be it: https://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/beergas-line-516-od-per-metre-hard-p-72.html
I have some on order, so I'll let you know if it's what I expect in a day or two.
Whoa thats mental I've never seen so much beer line, please double check temperature in your keezer and beer poured.
What taps have you, have they flow control?
I'll post my own tomorrow
I run the same line setup for my perlick which is at room temperature since I have no keezer, using an inline chiller so I have cool beer. Thing is like a fire hose if I don't vent the keg before serving and always pretty foamy.
I punched the numbers into online calculators and it shouldn't need to be so long so I am quite confused as well.
Would love to get a keezer or kegerator but that might be a step too far for the significant other. It seems I have "too much beer shit"
Thanks, Ciderhead, good to hear that response. I'd hate if you said it's normal!
I'm not sure at all what's going on. I recalibrated all my STCs and thermometers about two weeks ago in ice water and since then I've had the STC probe immersed in a 1.5 litre bottle of water in the keezer.
I'll check all the temps I can tonight. I already have one of those 1-foot long boil thermometers hanging from the wire shelf already. It trust its opinion since the Great Calibration and it's reading 3* right now (it's measuring the air in the upper part of the freezer, which is set to 2.7).
Taps are picnic for the mo. I did try a flow control one, but it didn't help too much. What kind of psi can the flow control drop, do you know?
I don't really trust the 3/8" line. It's got a measured ID of about 1/4" - that's 6.25 mm. I can't see that providing much resistance. This seems to be backed up by the typical psi dropped per foot rating you can find online, like on your BeerSmith link. The resistance only really starts going up below 1/4" ID: shaving 1/16" off the ID gives you about a fourfold jump in resistance. Pubs use 3/8", but they have longer pulls and more resistive elements in the line (valves, coolers).
I was wondering how homebrewers manage that. I guess the "two pressure" approach is OK for some. It doesn't seem right to me, though ;).
Quote from: Beermonger on September 09, 2015, 06:18:14 PM
Taps are picnic for the mo.
:( :( :'( :'( :'(
Unless you set serving to 2-3 psi you have no chance, I have 2 of these for parties, spend 2 mins watching him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3SgNUQ3eks
Nice one, CH. I always wondered how the tap-on-keg behaved. Looks pretty good.
I get a nice pour from a party tap only if I drop the pressure to about 0.1-0.2 bar, but that has the big pvc firehose on it.
Beermonger, I just got a couple of metres of HBCs 5/16" OD hard beer line last week. It is proper beer line, Valpar Gen-X 5/16" OD x 0.21" ID, if I recall correctly. So it's a little bigger than 3/16" (0.1875") ID. Don't know what the resistance/foot is, Valpar don't seem to quote it. They do mention that it's Oxygen permeation is way lower than their previous version. They also say it's ultra smooth inner so probably SFA resistance, and it is a bit stiff. I'm waiting on some JG fittings to wire it up to me new Tof tap, so I'll let you know how it goes.
http://www.andale.com.au/media/pdfs/news/d67d8ab4f4c10bf22aa353e27879133c_1.pdf
Quote from: Beermonger on September 09, 2015, 12:17:43 AM
craiclad, sorry to hijack the thread. It seems like we're dealing with the exact same problem—and we're not the only ones—so I thought it might be worth sharing what I've tried.
Quote from: craiclad on September 08, 2015, 07:59:15 AM
Seems like it's impossible to find 3/16" ID tubing over here
This should be it: https://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/beergas-line-516-od-per-metre-hard-p-72.html
I have some on order, so I'll let you know if it's what I expect in a day or two.
Beermonger, don't worry at all more discussion means more answers! I'm afraid that the 5/16" line is NOT in fact 3/16" ID, but actually quite a few mm larger. That is the size tubing I currently have on my keg, and according to the calculators this length (11') would serve perfectly at 14 PSI, but I'm having a tough time serving at 5! By my calculations we would need around 40' to have a line balanced to serve at the correct pressure needed to maintain carbonation with this size of tubing. I also ordered some 3/16" OD tubing from the UK a few weeks ago and it is entirely too small to use for our purposes. It slides freely through the 5/16" tubing too, so I know for a fact that 5/16" tubing has an ID larger than 3/16". I think it's quite unfortunate that we can't get the correct size line over here as dropping the pressure in the keg every time you want a pint is quite a pain and causes some foaming in its own way (gas coming out of suspension in the beer lines - note that these air pockets supposedly do not occur in a properly balanced system).
My 5/16 OD line (actually 8 mm) has an ID of 5.4 mm.
According to this - http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/ - which is the only calculator I can find to work out resistance for line diameters that arent exactly 3/16 or 1/4 - is supposed to be fairly accurate. For 3/16 I would need 11 foot (seems to be the recommended level of most forums) but the extra .7 mm means I apparently need 17 foot of this line at 12 psi and 40 fahrenheit. I've just rigged it up at 17 foot per tap but its too early to say how effective it is. As far as I can gather shouldnt be foamy - might just be too slow.
Will update.
Quote from: Mac on September 10, 2015, 12:06:19 AM
My 5/16 OD line (actually 8 mm) has an ID of 5.4 mm.
According to this - http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/ - which is the only calculator I can find to work out resistance for line diameters that arent exactly 3/16 or 1/4 - is supposed to be fairly accurate. For 3/16 I would need 11 foot (seems to be the recommended level of most forums) but the extra .7 mm means I apparently need 17 foot of this line at 12 psi and 40 fahrenheit. I've just rigged it up at 17 foot per tap but its too early to say how effective it is. As far as I can gather shouldnt be foamy - might just be too slow.
Will update.
Would love to hear your findings Molc, I have a bunch of 5/16" tubing and it would be pretty convenient not to have to adjust pressure every time I serve a beer!
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 09, 2015, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Beermonger on September 09, 2015, 06:18:14 PM
Taps are picnic for the mo.
:( :( :'( :'( :'(
Unless you set serving to 2-3 psi you have no chance
I've got my picnic taps pouring nicely at around 12 PSI. Beer is carbed to the same. Took my ages to settle on that and TBH sometimes I'd like a little more carbonation but its as good as I've managed on the picnic tap. Really need to sort out my fake chinese perlicks soon.
Quote from: Qs on September 10, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 09, 2015, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Beermonger on September 09, 2015, 06:18:14 PM
Taps are picnic for the mo.
:( :( :'( :'( :'(
Unless you set serving to 2-3 psi you have no chance
I've got my picnic taps pouring nicely at around 12 PSI. Beer is carbed to the same. Took my ages to settle on that and TBH sometimes I'd like a little more carbonation but its as good as I've managed on the picnic tap. Really need to sort out my fake chinese perlicks soon.
What size/length lines do you use?
Wading in here, sorry.
If there is any positive temperature change, or negative pressure change in the line at all, you'll create froth, which will foam out no matter what the serving pressure is. Double check that the line doesn't increase in diameter through the run (3/8 to 5/16 ok, but an increase of 5/16 to 3/8, for example, is not), or that any part gets warm, and finally that the JGs are connected properly. If a little bit of air can get in it'll create froth problems.
Not saying that any of that is causing your problem, but I recently had a bad foaming keg in spite of EVERYTHING running according to the rules... except that one JG fitting wasn't tight! Took me an embarassingly long time to figure out.
This subject is yet another black art!
Yes, there are some online calculators that will give you a keg pressure (say 30 psi), to push beer through 40 foot of 3/8"* (*: JG and all push fit fittings are numbered by OD) so at the tap there is a dispense pressure of say 5 psi.
This is how the big boys do it - but guess what? they cheat by having the beer at a constant temperature by using a "Python" (Insulated beer lines with glycol cooling).
So really for us its a question of fine tunning our systems!
Quote from: craiclad on September 10, 2015, 04:05:07 PM
Quote from: Qs on September 10, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 09, 2015, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Beermonger on September 09, 2015, 06:18:14 PM
Taps are picnic for the mo.
:( :( :'( :'( :'(
Unless you set serving to 2-3 psi you have no chance
I've got my picnic taps pouring nicely at around 12 PSI. Beer is carbed to the same. Took my ages to settle on that and TBH sometimes I'd like a little more carbonation but its as good as I've managed on the picnic tap. Really need to sort out my fake chinese perlicks soon.
What size/length lines do you use?
3m of 3/8 OD. I'd say buy a good length and keep trimming it back until you hit the sweet spot. I tried 4m and 3m at the same time on different kegs and the 3m was way better.
17 foot works with the 8mm * 5.4 mm line. job done.
I can confirm that my beer is no longer flat :P
And for the first time I can use the valves on the side of the taps to control the flow, which I never could at 5 psi. Didnt know what they were for tbh until now..
Quote from: Mac on September 11, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
17 foot works with the 8mm * 5.4 mm line. job done.
Which line is that specifically? 5/16"?
very close to it (sold as 5/16 OD in Ireland) - 8 mm OD, 5.4 mm ID.
It seems like I've managed to get things balanced too. At least everything's OK with the new beer I put on. Here's the details, in case they help someone.
I'm using about 1 metre of what the HBC sells as 5/16" OD hard line. I guess it's about 3/16" ID. I'm using 3/8"–5/16" JG adaptors at each end and then a short length of 3/8" OD hard line to go to the picnic tap and the QD. Currently have a keg at 8 psi and it's serving fine. It also worked well at 10 psi, so I think I might up the fridge temp a bit when I can (need it cold for lagering now) and see if it handles the higher psi. I also tried the trick of putting a length of the HBC's 3/16" OD hard tubing into the serving dip tube. It adds some resistance, and might be worth while in some cases, but I don't need it right now.
Result: nice pour with little foam, despite the picnic tap and the fact that the tube widens before the tap. There's very little beer in the line (not like the 300 ml I had in the 9 metres of 3/8" ID!) and it's mostly all liquid - no gas bubbles.
Thanks for all the help!
Quick question beermonger... Does the JG 3/8-5/16 reducer work both ways (reduce and increase)? as that's how it looks on your photo and after reading the entire internet I've got the same idea as you.
Sorry, haven't been on the forum much recently...
Yes, that's right. The qd has a thread on it, so it's attached to at threaded JG with 3/8" push fitting. There's a short length of 3/8" OD tubing, then a JG adapter with a 3/8" push fitting on one end and a 5/16" push fitting on the other, into which the coiled length of 5/16" tubing is inserted. The tubing then going into the second 5/16"–3/8" JG, then a bit of 3/8" tubing, then the tab (which wouldn't fir the 5/16" tubing directly).
So following the liquid, narrows down from 3/8" to 5/16" and then widens out again at the end of 3/8" (which doesn't seem to cause any foaming).
Quote from: Beermonger on January 14, 2016, 10:42:57 PM
Sorry, haven't been on the forum much recently...
Yes, that's right. The qd has a thread on it, so it's attached to at threaded JG with 3/8" push fitting. There's a short length of 3/8" OD tubing, then a JG adapter with a 3/8" push fitting on one end and a 5/16" push fitting on the other, into which the coiled length of 5/16" tubing is inserted. The tubing then going into the second 5/16"–3/8" JG, then a bit of 3/8" tubing, then the tab (which wouldn't fir the 5/16" tubing directly).
So following the liquid, narrows down from 3/8" to 5/16" and then widens out again at the end of 3/8" (which doesn't seem to cause any foaming).
Brilliant thanks! I'm thinking of using 3/16 instead of 5/16 but the same setup.