Hi there,
Tried out using a chugged pump with my mash tun last weekend and after about two minutes of running it started to run dry. I was pumping through 1/2".silicon tubing up through a stainless steel coil and out again. I have run a small 12v dc pump over 2 years without any problems. I have tried restricting the outflow of the chugger but it still ended up running dry. The bottom drain in my mash tun is connected via a pair of pipe fittings connected together to turn 180 degrees. One end of the pipe fittings is screwed on to a nipple through the bottom of mash tun and the other end is put through the bottom of the converted candle tray I use as a false bottom. Under normal operation it works fine but I suspect the 180 degree turn is causing the flow of liquid to be slowed down too much. A couple of things also is that my existing tube connections are plastic and I suspect the bore of them is too narrow & this is contributing to the problem.
My pump was laying on the floor next to the mash tun and I am wondering if I should move my mash tun higher up to allow the pump be fed by gravity? Would the sole pump I have be strong enough to pump through the stainless steel coil I wonder. The difficult part about this is the only effective way to test is to do so on a container full of grain as when I tested the pump & herms with water it flew.
I was also thinking for some time of switching to camlock fittings with a view to having larger bore connections in to the piping. What other practical suggestions would people recommend to solve this problem?
If I can reliably crack this problem I will be able to make a switch to using the herms/pid controller setup that I have built.
Shanna
Pics, especially of the bores, you need to go 3:1 on liquid as the chugger pumps up to 19l/min typically 10-14 in herms
You also need a reservoir with headspace so in a standard MT you want minimal gap not so on Herms
I seem to remember there was something unique in your draw for the dip tube
What flow rate are you getting?
The addition of an underback between your pump and mash tun would also solve the problem
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 12, 2015, 02:36:56 PM
Pics, especially of the bores, you need to go 3:1 on liquid as the chugger pumps up to 19l/min typically 10-14 in herms
You also need a reservoir with headspace so in a standard MT you want minimal gap not so on Herms
I seem to remember there was something unique in your draw for the dip tube
What flow rate are you getting?
The unique thing on my dip tube was that it was not actually a tube but two stainless fittings connected to a nipple that was threaded through the bottom of the masth tun. They turn the feed 180 degrees to suck up the liquid from the bottom of the mash tun. Not to sound like a complete numpty but is the 3:1 ratio 3 litres in to the pump to every 1 out? I am using 1/2" inch silicon with the plastic clip on fittings (Gary bought them on a group buy). Will post pictures of the bore later. Safe to say they are less than 1/2".
Shanna
Quote from: CARA on September 12, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
The addition of an underback between your pump and mash tun would also solve the problem
will consider that if I can't get the mash tun sorted out.
Thanks
Shanna
Pics tell a thousand words ;)
I think I remember it's like a t with 2 1/2 inch 90s off it
They need to be constantly flooded and you can achieve this by raising height of your false bottom with some stainless bolts
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/12/7e8fbbb80729af4408b09483dc2efd74.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/12/59a5a794c320d878ba18a38c8e922548.jpg)
Sorry but those fittings are not good enough for a chugger perhaps on the out but not on the feed to the pump
Guess which one of these goes on the feed side of the pump and which on the exit!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/12/024cbb070573633c44ac4db6c54b2d59.jpg)(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/12/1d34cfd678946ba74e6c4ced73ec860c.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/12/98e1c54a570b53c3d391f5006229bf6b.jpg)
3:1 liquid ratio check your ratios on beersmith under mash tab click on first step, new window pops up as "mash step", standard non circulating mash is typically 2-2.5 l/kg herms should be 2.5-3 especially with a brute like a chugger and on 16 litres liquid in 5kgs of grain it can recirc every 1.5 -3 mins depending on your bore size
Hi Ciderhead,
I can see that the bore on the fittings I have are approximately 13mm so its obvious this is part of the problem. Interestingly I always felt that the space in the bottom of my mash tun was too big due to the nipple coming through directly through the bottom of my mash tun. I have always been tempted to screw the fittings on very tightly to reduce the space between the false bottom and the bottom of the mash tun. Will try and do a dummy run over the next few days with the largest bore fitting I have (think I have an 18mm stainless barb somewhere) and also raise the height of the drain fittings. I checked beer smith in the mash settings and its estimating just under 3 litre of water per kilo of grain. I might increase the size of my deadspace by another litre just to be on the safe side.
Pictures of my false bottom and the nipple from the bottom of my mash tun attached.
Shanna
Can you take off that bit of copper and try a run?
As a temp fix you can wind silcone tubing directly onto the the threads of half inch chugger in.
Not sure what you have for the tap of the MT but again look at giving full open supply
Also measure your flow l/min and advise
I switched my draining system in my Mash Tun to a copper pipe system with slots cut in them to drain from. Had too many sticking problems with the drain plate method but now my chugger can pull enough liquid from the Mash Tun and run it through the HERMS and return it to the top of the Mash with a steady flow.
I've just had a brain fart, your mash tun in bottom centre draining, dump the u bend and just let it drain directly through the hole in the bottom which is what mine does, you refeed back to the grainbed and it performs the filtration with herms?
Unlike the solars chuggers can chomp large grain particles at the start
(just not hop cones but it was funny as I watched the first few small ones travel towards the pump until a monster stopped it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVilNDXd0A
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 12, 2015, 09:03:32 PM
I've just had a brain fart, your mash tun in bottom centre draining, dump the u bend and just let it drain directly through the hole in the bottom which is what mine does, you refeed back to the grainbed and it performs the filtration with herms?
Unlike the solars chuggers can chomp large grain particles at the start
(just not hop cones but it was funny as I watched the first few small ones travel towards the pump until a monster stopped it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVilNDXd0A
Any hints where you got those SS bolts from? Was thinking might be time to invest in a proper false bottom rather than my current candle tray job. Will also invest in some larger bore fittings and camlocks. Thanks for the advice.
Shanna
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 12, 2015, 08:05:34 PM
I switched my draining system in my Mash Tun to a copper pipe system with slots cut in them to drain from. Had too many sticking problems with the drain plate method but now my chugger can pull enough liquid from the Mash Tun and run it through the HERMS and return it to the top of the Mash with a steady flow.
Interesting I actually started out with a similar system but as it was connected to the bottom drain I had issues with it not draining as well. Might dig the parts out & compare it to false bottom.
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on September 12, 2015, 09:24:02 PM
Any hints where you got those SS bolts from? Was thinking might be time to invest in a proper false bottom rather than my current candle tray job. Will also invest in some larger bore fittings and camlocks. Thanks for the advice.
Shanna
I'm sure you could pick em up easily in a hardware store or one of the marine chandlers in Dun Laoghaire?
otherwise parcel motel http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Dome-Nuts-Stainless-Steel-A4-Marine-Grade-316-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-/261908078850?var=&hash=item3cfaf02102#shpCntId
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/A4-MARINE-GRADE-STAINLESS-LIFTING-EYE-NUTS-BOLTS-M6-M8-M10-M12-M16-M20-FEMALE-/201386017977?var=&hash=item2ee38ac4b9
The one in the pic was mad money from Mr Lard
https://www.brewbuilder.co.uk/custom-cut-false-bottom.html
try your old system before you go mad, slits work best on copper pipe and have them on the bottom so the weight of the grain is on the top
Quote from: Ciderhead on September 12, 2015, 10:04:46 PM
Quote from: Shanna on September 12, 2015, 09:24:02 PM
Any hints where you got those SS bolts from? Was thinking might be time to invest in a proper false bottom rather than my current candle tray job. Will also invest in some larger bore fittings and camlocks. Thanks for the advice.
Shanna
I'm sure you could pick em up easily in a hardware store or one of the marine chandlers in Dun Laoghaire?
otherwise parcel motel http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Dome-Nuts-Stainless-Steel-A4-Marine-Grade-316-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-/261908078850?var=&hash=item3cfaf02102#shpCntId
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/A4-MARINE-GRADE-STAINLESS-LIFTING-EYE-NUTS-BOLTS-M6-M8-M10-M12-M16-M20-FEMALE-/201386017977?var=&hash=item2ee38ac4b9
The one in the pic was mad money from Mr Lard
https://www.brewbuilder.co.uk/custom-cut-false-bottom.html
try your old system before you go mad, slits work best on copper pipe and have them on the bottom so the weight of the grain is on the top
No fear of me going for that option as your right its mad money. I don't ever remember seeing stainless steel of anything in the average hardware store or builder suppliers. I checked radionics before I posted & they have everything but in boxes of 50 or 100. Might try & get somebody local to fabricate something or else use the spare Ikea candle tray I have with a bunch of pieces of stainless underneath to support it. The bottom of my mash tun is not flat so it makes it a bit awkward to get everything aliinged. Will definitely look at shortening the nipple as that should reduce the gap required between the underside of the false bottom and the entrance to the bottom drain. Going to pinch your idea of using the silicone hose along the rim of the false bottom.
Shanna
its beer line, but silicone would work just as well, i think the slits and holes are enough but yeah dump the copper tube to allow as much takeup as possible or completely get rid of that U
To cut beer line in a straight line http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50022
That's not a bad price for a custom false bottom. Especially when you see some of the American ones. NorCal etc. If it does the job and allows you to use your chugger pump it's probably worth it.
I use a domed false bottom in my tun like this.
https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/stainless-steel-domed-false-bottom.html
I'm thinking in a keggle the domed would be even batter as it would fit in the base nicely.
I set the chugged to about 1/4 open initially and open it up a bit once the wort has cleared without it blocking so far. That's with a grist ratio of 3:1.
How quickly do he sparge? I do mine for about 20-30 mins, but it's tricky to go slow.
@Molc in herms as in BM/GF you have a saturated solution from sugars from your grains and so a long sparge is of no real benefit, you just want to rinse last sugars from husk etc. after intial drain I just perform a simple rinse through sprayhead so I am getting everything and do this with pumped volumes from HLT, it takes 3-5 mins depending on batch size.
HB had a clever idea here and that was to overcook your volumes and do no sparge and simply top up with water in boil kettle. I am guessing this would also minimise any potential astringency, and would only cost pennies v's time spent screwing around on a long sparge
On the FB its important that its covers the entire area of the grain sitting above it as say for example a 10inch FB in a 15inch pot would lead to deadspots and channelling.
Even with Herms I stir at least once over the 60 mins and maybe twice if I'm doing a longer 90min mash.
@Shanna you can also try making one of these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q2OzraoxRE
B& Q sell stainless steel nuts bolts and screws.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 13, 2015, 12:35:33 PM
B& Q sell stainless steel nuts bolts and screws.
Cheers will look them up.
Shanna
So cut the top of the nipple off of the bottom drain in my mash tun so no going back. Have a 2nd candle tray that I am going to convert to a false bottom once I get a stainless steel cutting disk for my angle grinder. Got in touch with home brew hardware to get confirmation of bore size on camlock fittings they sell before pulling the trigger on buying a whole new set of fittings.
Shanna
Just check to see if your existing tray will work first before you go to the trouble, it has holes as well as slits in pic yeah?
Shanna, I have 4.5" stainless steel 1mm cutting discs if you need one. Got a pack of 10 as it was cheaper than 1 online :)
For camlocks, brewpi do full bore 1/2" fittings, but they're pricy. Good quality though. If you're ordering from them, let me know, as I need 2 male screw on camlocks for my plate chiller.
Shanna I found this while clearing out my shed if it's any use to you, it's 30cm diameter perforated stainless
All this talk of false bottoms and nipples, thought I had come to the wrong site
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on September 15, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
Shanna I found this while clearing out my shed if it's any use to you, it's 30cm diameter perforated stainless
Absolutely useful to me. Is it okay for me to PM you to work out payment/collection from you?
Shanna
Quote from: CH on September 15, 2015, 08:30:34 AM
Just check to see if your existing tray will work first before you go to the trouble, it has holes as well as slits in pic yeah?
No chance as original tray has two 1/2""holes drilled in it.
Shanna
Quote from: auralabuse on September 15, 2015, 04:21:20 PM
All this talk of false bottoms and nipples, thought I had come to the wrong site
Yeah plumbing is full of gender specific descriptions e.g. nipples, male, female. No porn here though :)
Shanna
Quote from: molc on September 15, 2015, 08:41:33 AM
Shanna, I have 4.5" stainless steel 1mm cutting discs if you need one. Got a pack of 10 as it was cheaper than 1 online :)
For camlocks, brewpi do full bore 1/2" fittings, but they're pricy. Good quality though. If you're ordering from them, let me know, as I need 2 male screw on camlocks for my plate chiller.
Yeah brewpi is great but premium price. Was thinking of either US or EBay China or AliExpress. Whatever I go for I will get in touch before I buy them to give you an option. Thanks for the offer on the blades but I picked up a pair this morning so I don't have to wait.
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on September 15, 2015, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: molc on September 15, 2015, 08:41:33 AM
Shanna, I have 4.5" stainless steel 1mm cutting discs if you need one. Got a pack of 10 as it was cheaper than 1 online :)
For camlocks, brewpi do full bore 1/2" fittings, but they're pricy. Good quality though. If you're ordering from them, let me know, as I need 2 male screw on camlocks for my plate chiller.
Yeah brewpi is great but premium price. Was thinking of either US or EBay China or AliExpress. Whatever I go for I will get in touch before I buy them to give you an option. Thanks for the offer on the blades but I picked up a pair this morning so I don't have to wait.
Shanna
I got a male camlock from AliExpress and it wasn't compatible with my BrewPi ones. I think the silicon gasket is thicker on the female connectors, which means they don't fit.
Quote from: Shanna on September 15, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on September 15, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
Shanna I found this while clearing out my shed if it's any use to you, it's 30cm diameter perforated stainless
Absolutely useful to me. Is it okay for me to PM you to work out payment/collection from you?
Shanna
PM sent
Quote from: molc on September 15, 2015, 10:52:37 PM
Quote from: Shanna on September 15, 2015, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: molc on September 15, 2015, 08:41:33 AM
Shanna, I have 4.5" stainless steel 1mm cutting discs if you need one. Got a pack of 10 as it was cheaper than 1 online :)
For camlocks, brewpi do full bore 1/2" fittings, but they're pricy. Good quality though. If you're ordering from them, let me know, as I need 2 male screw on camlocks for my plate chiller.
Yeah brewpi is great but premium price. Was thinking of either US or EBay China or AliExpress. Whatever I go for I will get in touch before I buy them to give you an option. Thanks for the offer on the blades but I picked up a pair this morning so I don't have to wait.
Shanna
I got a male camlock from AliExpress and it wasn't compatible with my BrewPi ones. I think the silicon gasket is thicker on the female connectors, which means they don't fit.
Will let you know one way or the other before I proceed.
Shanna