National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 09:23:22 PM

Title: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 09:23:22 PM
3 months back I brewed a simcoe ipa all grain kit from  hbc. As I lifted the lid to the fermenter the smell that went up my nose was overpowering. I can't say what off flavour it exactly was but it was strong and as I cracked open tge first bottle 10 days later, it was worse still. I would describe it as ethyl acetate solvent like when swirled. My entire ferment didn't get higher than 18.5oc
I put this one down to a once off but I've just brewed an imp red ale and it's the same! My water is hard and there is a smell to it but not a nasty smell. This ferment didn't go higher than 18oc and was mainly at 17.5 . I could drink the beer but it's just not nice.  What's happening? ??? 2 totally different recipes brewed very carefully both only 1 fermenter,  no secondary.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Bubbles on September 16, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
How long was the beer in the fermenter?

Did you take a temperature reading before you pitched the yeast?

Did you rehydrate the yeast? If so, how?
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 09:54:28 PM
The first beer was the ipa it was in the fermenter 11 days. it was og 1048. Second beer for 18 days as was very slow bubbling dew to low ferment temp and was 1070 og
I pitched both beers at exactly 19oc
No rehydrate. And both beers I used safale us-05
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 09:57:13 PM
Both beers are very different style beers. The ipa fermented fairly vigorously but never at a hi temp and fg 1010. And the imp red fermented slow and long time fg 1012.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LordEoin on September 16, 2015, 10:04:21 PM
that kit comes with us05, right?
Have you added any plastic bits to your brewery?
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Damo on September 16, 2015, 10:08:57 PM
Do You brew in the kitchen?  Could be fruit flies :(
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 10:17:25 PM
I brew in a kitchen and my boiler is plastic from hbc. I didn't notice any fruit flies but maybe..
Us-05
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LordEoin on September 16, 2015, 10:32:33 PM
mysterious
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Bubbles on September 16, 2015, 10:37:43 PM
Try calibrating your thermometers. These things are usually temperature related.

If not, it's possibly caused by an infection. How do you clean and sanitise your gear?
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Shanna on September 16, 2015, 10:52:46 PM
Quote from: LASERBOY147 on September 16, 2015, 09:54:28 PM
The first beer was the ipa it was in the fermenter 11 days. it was og 1048. Second beer for 18 days as was very slow bubbling dew to low ferment temp and was 1070 og
I pitched both beers at exactly 19oc
No rehydrate. And both beers I used safale us-05
1.07 to 1.012 would give you a beer of about 7.6%. Fusel alcohols can be either too high a fermentation temperature or else the beer sitting too long on the yeast with an excessive amount of yeast

www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAAahUKEwj5sPe6w_zHAhVHVhoKHR11DCY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.howtobrew.com%2Fsection4%2Fchapter21-2.html&usg=AFQjCNER5MIIscr_SWSVIaXzDQBAlU1asg

Were you using dried US-05 or rewashed or recyled yeast by any chance?

I had a similar beer I had fusel alcohols in the beer that was picked up by others for several months (OG was 1.070 and FG was 1.010). I traced it back to too high a temperature for pitching. I did notice that it started to improve over time and after 3 months or so I could not tell it was there.

Shanna
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: imark on September 16, 2015, 11:40:58 PM
US05 is very forgiving on fermentation temperature in my experience. I'd be looking at initial pitch temperature and underpitching.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: molc on September 17, 2015, 08:54:50 AM
Yeast stress & health, low oxygenation and high og can all combine to give fussel alcohol I believe. Coupled with poor temp control over the summer and it's quite easy for it to happen.
That said, you seem to have control. Can you ensure the temp was not changing? Also the 1.048 beer shouldn't have gone that crazy, so it's a bit mysterious.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 17, 2015, 10:49:22 AM
Mysterious and damned right annoying....but I'm fortunate enough to have enlisted the help of Roger Rotheroe who is going to come and do a brewday with me and taste my shite beer and tell me where I'm getting it wrong , which is a huge relief as it wrecks your head getting it wrong 2/3 times in a row.
The temps were definitely perfect and thermometer is calibrated too . I literally brewed the last beer perfectly up to the point of fermentation and so I'm now wondering if it's stressed yeast or I need a new fermentation vessel. Anyway thanks for your thoughts and I will repost after Roger has sorted it all out...
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Bubbles on September 17, 2015, 12:11:44 PM
Where do you store your yeast?
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on September 17, 2015, 12:59:00 PM
Yeast in pkt in spare rm . Not hot not cold
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: auralabuse on September 17, 2015, 01:40:11 PM
Was it in a fermentation chamber during the weeks on the fermenter or would it have been subject to external temp fluctuations?. I had the same problem with an ipa. I made a little temp control contraption for the next one and it turned out great
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Bubbles on September 17, 2015, 08:56:53 PM

Quote from: LASERBOY147 on September 17, 2015, 12:59:00 PM
Yeast in pkt in spare rm . Not hot not cold

All yeast, even dried, should be stored in the fridge before use. I'm not saying this definitely caused your problem, but it would be one improvement you could make next time in order to stamp out the off flavour. Fresh packet of yeast from your homebrew shop and put it straight into the fridge.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: darren996 on September 17, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
Any chance its your fv? Do you take the tap out and clean and sanitise it. Are there any scrapes that some nasties could be gathering? Get some starsan for your next brew, its great stuff..
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: johnrm on September 18, 2015, 07:59:11 AM
Starsan <> Silver Bullet
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: darren996 on September 18, 2015, 01:11:38 PM
I realise that but it is a good bullet to have in you're cleaning and sterilising routine. The foam gives good coverage and can get into scrapes and scratches in plastic fvessels , imho
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: johnrm on September 18, 2015, 03:58:42 PM
Don't forget - Bleach and steam (Depending on whats being Sanitised) are your friends also where a deep clean is required.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on October 15, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
Ty 4 all replies . The reason for my off flavours was fusel alcohol from sressed out yeast having to cope with too much alcohol in sub standard unrehydrated conditions. Not stirred in and  temp possibly slightly too cool to get off the ground quick enough. Made 2 great efforts since. Problem solved case closed cheers all
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: Bubbles on October 15, 2015, 03:22:59 PM
Quote from: LASERBOY147 on October 15, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
Ty 4 all replies . The reason for my off flavours was fusel alcohol from sressed out yeast having to cope with too much alcohol in sub standard unrehydrated conditions. Not stirred in and  temp possibly slightly too cool to get off the ground quick enough. Made 2 great efforts since. Problem solved case closed cheers all

It's great that you've stamped out the problem, but I wouldn't be so sure the problem was caused by the reasons you've outlined there.

Not rehydrating will reduce your cell count, certainly, but not to any hugely detrimental level. A lot of home brewers don't rehydrate at all, and don't have a problem. I rarely rehydrate when using dried yeast.

Not stirring the dried yeast into the wort will make no difference at all.

Likewise, pitching dried yeast too cool won't cause fusels to develop. It will just result in the fermentation stalling, and if left long enough, infection will start to creep in.
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: LASERBOY147 on October 15, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
I hear ye , I'm still thinking the yeast were stressed out , the 2nd brew was high og so that can have a big affect I hear on yeast health. I also read fusel alcohols are produced early on in fermentation.  I'm still not 100% sure how it happened but I've 2 great beers up and running since rehydration the yeast prior to adding . The yeast pkts are also being stored in fridge from now on and any beer over 7% is getting 2 pkts or maybe 1&1/2 at least
Title: Re: Fusel/solvent/estery/ethyl acetate problems!!!
Post by: auralabuse on October 16, 2015, 04:15:31 PM
How was your temp control?, solvent off flavour in my set up came from poor temp control during the summer. The wort temp was too hot and I was left with 20 litres of solvent