National Homebrew Club Ireland

Heya,
Doing this at the weekend and I want to make a really kick ass amber, in the vein of Brooklyn Amber. Aiming for a lot of tropical fruits and some dark fruit flavours in this, without being too dank. Want it to be a fruity, smooth easy drinker. Any tweaks, throw them out there!

Recipe: American Amber - New World Hopping   TYPE: All Grain
Style: American Amber Ale
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 29.1 EBC      
IBU: 37.1 IBUs Rager
OG: 1.052 SG
FG: 1.013 SG
BU:GU: 0.711
---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------
1.68 g                Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent   2        -             

Total Grain Weight: 5.85 kg   Total Hops: 118.00 g oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------       
4.70 kg               CHÂTEAU PALE ALE (10.0 EBC)      80.3 %       
0.45 kg               Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 7.7 %         
0.30 kg               Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) 5.1 %         
0.20 kg               CHÂTEAU BISCUIT® (50.0 EBC)  3.4 %         
0.20 kg               Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC)  3.4 %         

Mash In           Add 20.00 l of water at 75.0 C          68.0 C        60 min       
Mash Out          Add -0.00 l of water and heat to 76.0 C 76.0 C        15 min       
Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 18.11l) of 76.0 C water

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
20.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - First Wort 60. Hop           8        26.8 IBUs 
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min    Hop           9        4.4 IBUs     
10.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min   Hop           10       2.0 IBUs   
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop           11       3.9 IBUs     

---DRY HOPS----------------------------------
30.00 g               Centennial-2014 [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
28.00 g               Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Yeast: WLP001, 1.5L starter

Yum :)

OG-IBU balance looks good for an AA.
Grain bill looks nice, very German influence in there! :)

Needs a lot more hops though, imo. Even though you're not going for something "dank", I'd still double up on those hops?

Forgot the dry hops there:
40.00 g               Centennial-2014 [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0
28.00 g               Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Ok so, hop bombing it, bittering stays the same, then how about (only have 50g galaxy :D):
25.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min    Hop           9        4.4 IBUs     
20.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min   Hop           10       2.0 IBUs   
25.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop           11       3.9 IBUs     

That's a big dry hop!

Just as a suggestion, if you're avoiding dankness... you could replace the dry hop with an extra big flameout hop and adjust your IBUs accordingly. I've done lots of beers without dry hopping and still ended up with great hop aroma.

Mmm, delicious decisions.

Corner A:
---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
20.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - First Wort 60. Hop           8        26.8 IBUs 
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min    Hop           9        4.4 IBUs     
10.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min   Hop           10       2.0 IBUs   
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop           11       3.9 IBUs     

---DRY HOPS----------------------------------
30.00 g               Centennial-2014 [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
28.00 g               Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Corner B:
---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
20.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - First Wort 60. Hop     26.8 IBUs 
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min    Hop     4.4 IBUs     
10.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [10.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min   Hop     2.0 IBUs   
15.00 g               Galaxy(2013) [13.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop  3.9 IBUs     
15.00 g               Centennial-2014 [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop ~ 3 IBU
15.00 g               Citra [12.00 %] -  Steep/Whirlpool Hop ~ 3 IBU

Then there is the third alternative of two different dry hopping schedules in two half filled kegs - make one double the other...

I like the side by side tests where you change one variable it always makes tasting more interesting

You know, in the name schience n'all

Doh, forgot to split the batch before dry hopping last night. Went with option A, though with 40g centennial and 25g cites to use up the last of what I had. Well see how it works out.

Quote from: molc on October 30, 2015, 05:40:58 PM
Doh, forgot to split the batch before dry hopping last night.

Be honest...

Were you drinking at the time dude?

I can neither confirm nor deny the events that occurred. ;)

From the pre national meet this week, there were comments that while the hops were good, the flavour was low on this beer. Following on from the a chat on http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,14597.msg137901.html#new, I'm trying to up the malt flavour contributions. Here's the new recipe:

Boil Size: 32.47 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.92 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 20.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 17.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 41.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 65.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------     
3.00 g                Chalk (Mash 60.0 mins)
1.66 g                Salt (Mash 60.0 mins)
1.60 g                Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)
1.40 g                Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins)   
2.400 kg              CHÂTEAU PALE ALE (5.1 SRM)
2.400 kg              CHÂTEAU PILSEN 2RW (1.8 SRM)
0.500 kg              Bairds Crystal Light (50.8 SRM)
0.450 kg              Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
0.200 kg              Caramunich III (Weyermann) (71.0 SRM)
0.200 kg              Carared (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM)
0.100 kg              Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)
0.050 kg              Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
0.020 kg              Pale Chocolate (266.5 SRM)
22.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [9.30 %] - First Wort 90.0
22.00 g               Amarillo-2014 [9.30 %] - Boil 5.0 min
15.00 g               Galaxy-2014 [11.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min
15.00 g               Galaxy-2014 [11.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001)
28.00 g               Centennial-2014 [11.90 %] - Dry Hop 5.0
28.00 g               Citra-2104 [14.40 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Total Grain Weight: 6.320 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 20.00 l of water at 78.4 C          69.0 C        60 min       
Mash Out          Add -0.00 l of water and heat to 76.0 C 76.0 C        15 min

Ok, the first thing that strikes me is that you have a full kilo of crystal!  ???

I can't predict what that will do, as I've never used crystal to that extent before, but in any beer style, that's a LOT of crystal malt. Be aware too that WLP001 is slightly less attenuative than US05. With double the amount of crystal malt, a less attenuative yeast and a higher mash temp, you could end up with something on the other end of the spectrum.

Are you sure you're not making too many changes to your recipe at once? Just a suggestion, but it might be more prudent to change your recipe gradually. You could find you like the result if you make only one of the changes you've suggested?

Yeah it's a lot of changes; I wouldn't normally make this many if I was tuning a recipe - I'd have added some crystal 20 and Special B to give sweetness and dark fruits and left it at that.

Originally, I took the malt bill from a Jamil recipe and used the hopping from a Gordon Strong one. This recipe is the malt bill from Gordon Strong as well, with small grain tweaks to keep the colour the same. His version has even more crystal! Also he uses a less attentuative yeast than WLP001 - think it's meant to be a total fruit bomb.

It could be a disaster, but I don't see the original winning any medals anyway. At least this way, I'll have tried both ends of the spectrum and see where the limits lie...

I'll bring a bottle of each to the January meet and we can do a side by side tasting to see what everyone thinks sure :)

Just please don't be muddy brown - I hate trying to get the colour right with a load of crystal malts...

Its things like this that have started me looking at half batches! Great for experimentation and not a huge loss to throw 10 liters away if it's totally shite! I just bottles a 10 liter berlinner weisse last weekend that I dry hopped with 100g of Mosaic :P

A few thoughts:

Your mash efficiency looks quite low for your system, only 65%?

Lots of different malts in there. Would you even taste/distinguish the 20g Choc malt in that bill?

Maybe just stick with the Pale  malt, Pilsner might be too clean?

The Crystal Light is down as 50SRM? That's equivalent to approx 100 (98.5) EBC, more a medium Crystal.

The Crystal 120L would be closer to 160SRM.
(https://www.brewtoad.com/tools/color-converter)

Mash temp should be fine at 67-68°C for body, should only be Med to Med-Full bodied. When did you calibrate your thermometer? How long was mash?

Remember only make small changes each time to see how it effects it (different yeast or mash temp or malt bill, etc); multiple changes & you won't be able to identity  which one contributed to it.

Quote from: pob on December 04, 2015, 03:01:53 PM
A few thoughts:

Your mash efficiency looks quite low for your system, only 65%?

Lots of different malts in there. Would you even taste/distinguish the 20g Choc malt in that bill?

Maybe just stick with the Pale  malt, Pilsner might be too clean?

The Crystal Light is down as 50SRM? That's equivalent to approx 100 (98.5) EBC, more a medium Crystal.

The Crystal 120L would be closer to 160SRM.
(https://www.brewtoad.com/tools/color-converter)

Mash temp should be fine at 67-68°C for body, should only be Med to Med-Full bodied. When did you calibrate your thermometer? How long was mash?

Remember only make small changes each time to see how it effects it (different yeast or mash temp or malt bill, etc); multiple changes & you won't be able to identity  which one contributed to it.

* Efficiency will start going up now that I'd pretty much finished the mash tun. I don't chase it and try to stay close to 70%, so I get as much of the malt flavour as possible. Grain is cheap at the level I use it :)

* Not sure about the chocolate either. It was 50g in the original recipe, but that made things too dark. I keep taking it out as  I think the same thing.

* Using the Castle Belgian Pale and Pilsner malt. The Pils has the same EBC as a normal pale ale malt; the pale is almost like a vienna at 10 EBC!

* Crystal light is from Bairds and rated at 90-110 EBC. They're names are really screwy.

* Hmm, Beersmith lists crystal 120L at 236.4 EBC. I was just using it's figure. Looks like it treats all the SRM values the same as L...

* Usual overkill, I have 5 one wire thermometers running, all reading within 0.5C and checked against an ice bath. I really need to get some logging to see how my temperatures hold in a mash though...

You tasted the beer, so in as good a position to tell if it's overkill or just needed a little more sweetness. To me, it's missing any sort of fruit in the malt flavours. Also the colour felt a bit light for an amber. It's a tasty amber; just missing anything special to push it over the edge in a competition.

Quote from: pob on December 04, 2015, 03:01:53 PM
Maybe just stick with the Pale  malt, Pilsner might be too clean?

I spotted that too, and forgot to mention it!

@molc
There's no point in trying to make an amber beer and starting with a large percentage of pilsner malt in the base. I'd use all pale malt.

Another way to go would be to replace that pilsner malt with Munich. Then you wouldn't need all that crystal and dark malts. Do you remember craiclad's SMaSH American Amber with all Munich. I was surprised by how much colour Munch contributes.

Yeah fair point. I was going off the colour on the Chateau website, but just went down a rabbit hole. I'll go back to pale and maybe 1kg of vienna, which will give some extra maltiness and keep the colours in check. I don't think I could put munich in with this much crystal; you'd end up with treacle at the end :)

For reference, my ambers upto now have been 80% pale, 10% munich, 5% crystal 40, 3% crystal 120 and 2% Biscuit. That's pretty much what I handed upto the judges the last night as well.

Edit: I think I'll go with individual changes as suggested, but after the nationals.

I've an amber at the moment that I'm really happy with that only used 3.4% C120 for crystal. I used 25% Vienna and it finished at 1.012. 10g of roast barley for colour. It still has plenty of maltiness but its not cloyingly sweet in the way I find far too many ambers to be.