I'm considering taking the plunge so to speak, I don't have a local pet store which sells RO, the nearest is the place at the Mad Cow Roundabout, which involves 2 passes over the toll bridge on top of the price of the water. I wouldn't be long recouping the initial capital outlay.
The prices here seem to be off the wall compared to Spain, I reckon that they are charging 3X the price, I have sent an email to Bricomart to see if they are interested in shipping to Ireland
Take look at page 208 of their catalogue for prices
http://bricomart.com/uploads/folletos/flashCatalogo/2014/Malaga/index.html
Edit: I'm presuming that the €68 model is the one most people are using here?
not sure as my Spainish is a bit rusty,like my German,my Russian,my..... :D
Seems like a decent system. Though looks like the tank only holds about 9 liters
I was thinking about just filling a 25lt container rather than using the supplied tank, either that or fill the HLT directly from it, is this possible?
The tank is part of the system and has a bladder inside that as it fills and swells it is pressurised. If it stops filling you can vent some pressure from the tank to allow more water into the bladder.
How did you get on with the Spanish, any replys. I'm thinking of going ro in the near future
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121586621560&alt=web
This was equally good value, you will need a 4 way control valve and a float valve. This allows you to fill a container overnight ready for brewing the next day
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on November 17, 2015, 09:27:13 PM
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121586621560&alt=web
This was equally good value, you will need a 4 way control valve and a float valve. This allows you to fill a container overnight ready for brewing the next day
Did you go for one of these SA? I'm in the market and am curious as to how well it works.
Not yet Mark I need to finish the brew stand first.
slightly off topic, but what's the pet store that sells it? none of the local ones I've asked do it round here?
Seahorse aquariums do I think
Quote from: imark on February 01, 2016, 10:18:25 PM
Seahorse aquariums do I think
Thanks imark - I sent them a mail, here's the response for anyone else interested...
We sell the RO water in 10ltr €2 and 25ltr €4 size.
In terms of a container we take a €10 deposit on each drum.edit: picked some up earlier - originally quoted prices from email were for saltwater (€8 for 25ltr); RO was cheaper (€4 for 25ltr)
More expensive than I thought. That's convinced me to buy one of these units.
Have you bought it already? 5 stage system pumped is the best though yeah and about to pull the trigger on one of those myself!
http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2016/01/hands-on-5-stage-reverse-osmosis-water-filter-by-reverse-osmosis-revolution.html?platform=hootsuite
Just make sure that you have a collection system for the waste water.
A normal RO system makes about 4 parts waste for every 1 part RO water.
Is it as high as that I thought it was 2 litres for 1 litre RO I'm on a well so good in any case.
Anybody have an issues with them being dormant say if you only used it once or twice a month?
I reading you have to use them consistently to be effective
Think I'm gonna try a few brews with commercial Ro stuff just to get my eye in before I pull the trigger
I didn't buy yet. I only want it for cutting my water so as long as it strips out 99% of the relevant minerals it will be fine.
Curious about the point you make about regular use though as it won't get used very often. If its not effective when I crank it up once a month it's kind of pointless.
I'm only going to use the RO unit for brewing, and in this case the 3 filter unit is all that is needed. The extra filters are only necessary if you intend to collect the treated RO water in an expandable container as the rubber ball in which the water is collected can leave a rubber taint to the water. The final extra filters are to remove this taint. In my case I intend to collect directly into the HLT.
I have changed from using 100% Leixlip tap water to 50:50 Pet Shop RO:Tap Water based on the recent water test results. With a small addition of Epsom and CACL and my beer flavour has improved. dramatically.
I'm curious as to how the ro system dumps water at a ratio of 4 to 1. I thought it just forced the water through progressively tighter filters. Could you be talking about a softener?, I ask this coz I haven't got a clue
As far as I can see you can reuse the dumped water. It's gone through three filters by that point so would be devoid of chlorine etc. Just a bit harder.
Some of the five filter don't have big rubber balls ;) and 4 and 5 are taint and chlorine
I need more research!
Quote from: auralabuse on February 03, 2016, 12:06:06 PM
I'm curious as to how the ro system dumps water at a ratio of 4 to 1. I thought it just forced the water through progressively tighter filters. Could you be talking about a softener?, I ask this coz I haven't got a clue
RO filters don't work like the standard 'dead end' filters you'd be used to, if you tried to filter at that small a scale you'd just end up blocking the filter. What they do instead is recirculate the water across the face of the filter at high pressures and speeds. This means there's still pressure to drive the small molecules like water through the filter but the high recirculation means that the larger molecules aren't left to stand still and block the filter. This means though that the amount of large molecules recirculating gets higher and higher as more water migrates through the filter. If you keep on recirculating the same water the concentration of the unwanted larger molecules in the recirc gets too large and they'll start to force their way through the filter which you don't want, so that water gets dumped and fresh water is fed in to keep performance going.
Hope this is somewhat clear! The rule of thumb for large systems is 2:1 like was mentioned above.
I've never seen anyone at large scale use this dump water for anything, I don't have a technical reason, just that everyone seems to be suspicious of it.
Personally I prefer a more low tech (and cheaper) approach. Rainwater is a completely soft easily obtainable source of water. However it can get stagnant in a butt or pick up something off the roof on its way to the butt, but if you filter this water through a ceramic 0.2micron filter (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00519AM5S?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00) you'll remove any bacteria it may have picked up and get yourself an environmentally friendly source of brewing water. I've used this for the past 12 months and have been very happy with the results, there's a little bit of manual labour involved in filling and emptying the filter but I don't mind this as it reminds me I'm going to be brewing soon!
I really wouldn't recommend any rainwater from a roof as there are nasty paint colour and uv treatments on the slates, even the natural ones, the gutters can be aluminium or PVC with a lead content although most now are calcium zinc, again not food approved and your green collection drum is the absolute worst thing for potable water apart from the fact that it's the collection pool for any heavy metals from the above.
Great for cooling not for drinking!
I'm not even sure if you got a food grade sheet out and caught rainwater directly as I was reading recently about the quality of rainwater and what it picks up from atmospherics falling to ground in urban environments from diesel particulate, not as bad as the above but another factor and it's the "scrubbing" through soil and rock that removes a lot of airborne nasties.
I take your point about the collection drum (I use a food grade container to collect) but would have to query your assumptions about the rest - I don't believe that there's going to significant amount of transfer from a roof to the water in the minute or two it takes to get across a roof - I've never picked up anything when testing anyway. Given I'm in a fairly rural location fuel contaminants aren't a major concern to me.
I don't want to derail the thread about RO as it's an interesting one, just wanted to point out another option. RO is very good but expensive and also needs monitoring as well, at the pressures they run at, a slightly damaged seal or filter can let everything pass through. I wouldn't consider it a 'fit and forget' option either but then nothing is really.
The issue with heavy metals is that they are cumulative and will build up in endocrine and polymer resin vessels irrespective of their initial approvals.
Residual or lying water on roof or guttering picks up leachate that migrates to the surface and becomes concentrated and then washes into container.
My comments came from info on a roofing project I was working on for Cloughjordan Ecovillage 7 or 8 years ago where they were looking at plastic recycled roof tile options.
Really not something we should encourage for traditional roofing systems tbh.
Coming back to RO, yep the more I look into this not sure use once a month will keep it 100% effective.
That's a dose. I can't be driving for half an hour for a €4 drum of water. 😥
I just checked the pH of the RO water I picked up, and I'm just thinking I may have incorrectly calibrated the meter...
i used the RO water to calibrate it, but when i was reading about it earlier, it says the pH is normally 5 - 7 for RO, so I'm guessing that wouldn't be the best thing to use with the powder to make up the buffer solution? it's telling me the pH of the RO water I have left in the container is 8.3???
You can get bottles of distilled water in a motor factors.
I would have thought the calibration addition is just a pH buffer though so I'm surprised it's that easily swayed by your water.
Are you following the calibration instructions properly? Is the pH meter a piece of junk? You could probably do with some second source as reference.
Quote from: imark on February 04, 2016, 02:34:59 PM
You can get bottles of distilled water in a motor factors.
I would have thought the calibration addition is just a pH buffer though so I'm surprised it's that easily swayed by your water.
Are you following the calibration instructions properly? Is the pH meter a piece of junk? You could probably do with some second source as reference.
Quite possibly is junk - I might just get some pre-made buffer solution and test it \ recalibrate it.
Is it one of the 10euro ones from eBay? I use them but when they go funny I dump them. At that price they're disposable.
not quite, it's one of these, so not far off it maybe?!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Resolution-Accuracy-Pocket-0-14pH-Measurement/dp/B00UHGO350/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Resolution-Accuracy-Pocket-0-14pH-Measurement/dp/B00UHGO350/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8)
Quote from: auralabuse on February 03, 2016, 12:06:06 PM
I'm curious as to how the ro system dumps water at a ratio of 4 to 1. I thought it just forced the water through progressively tighter filters. Could you be talking about a softener?, I ask this coz I haven't got a clue
see doc horrible's explanation as it's probably better than what i can remember.
I looked into it at the time and it's something along the lines of the system has to flush the mineral thick water out to keep a supply of cleaner water on the outside of the RO membrane. Otherwise the concentrate will just sit there getting thicker and thicker.
the RO part in theory is more like a grading machine than a filter.
look at this video of a seed grader and imagine the RO water is the small bits coming out the bottom and the 'dirty' water is the big bits coming out the right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFmDwfMi0g
The support dude said it would be 4 parts RO to 1 part waste but after buying, installing and testing it I was getting 4 times more out of the waste line than to the tap. I complained repeatedly until they agreed to collect it from me and refund the full price. They were very nice about it and I've no beef with them, I think the first guy probably read the ratio wrong.
This is the unit I bought: http://www.water2buy.ie/reverse-osmosis/reverse-osmosis-pumped-water2buy-ro600 (http://www.water2buy.ie/reverse-osmosis/reverse-osmosis-pumped-water2buy-ro600)
I believe you'll have more waste water with the non-pumped version, and you have more waste as the reservoir gets more full due to counter pressure.
Yea its more like 60% useful water and 40% waste.
There are some websites out there that go into the exact details. But its along those lines.
Has anyone managed to get an RO filter as an input to the HLT ? Seems most kits want to give you a 3 gallon reservoir, which isn't really needed.
I was thinking an RO filter going into the HLT, with a float switch (http://www.ebay.com/itm/200mm-Liquid-Float-Switch-Water-Level-Sensor-Stainless-Steel-Double-Ball-/321904041525?hash=item4af2f9de35:g:cdEAAOSw~bFWLvWp) and solenoid (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Magnetic-Normally-Closed-For-Water-Air-N-C-12V-DC-/181210192895?hash=item2a30f81bff:g:kcoAAOSw9r1V9ELq) might be a nice idea...turn the tap the day before, and you've 20 gallons of RO water, ready to rock next morning.
The one on the eBay link SA posted early in this thread will suit what you are looking for.
It's not as straightforward as that, there's a special float valve required which shuts off the low pressure outlet of the RO unit and simultaneously shuts off the high pressure inlet to the unit.
There is only a requirement for a 3 unit to unit as the final two filters are only used to remove the rubber taste in the water caused by the rubber bladder in the reservoir, so if you are not using the reservoir the final two filters are not necessary
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Here's a copy of the reply which I received when I queried them about installing a float valve
Hello,
Thankyou for your message.
Do you know what your water pressure is like please??
As that way I will be able to advise on if you need a pumped or unpumped RO system.
If you have sufficient pressure for an unpumped system, you need to ensure that it has a 4 way control valve which will allow the float valve to automate the system.
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http://www.aquaeuro.ie/Details_eu.asp?ProductID=1294
as i said in my talk im using ro since 2012 and never looked back
people spend a fortune on water in plastic bottles of water the water itself may be debatable, then add in toxins from the plastic.....ange every three months 7 r 8
a ro kit is 200 euros with 3 x 5 micron filters, then ro filter then a post carbon filter.
the first filter I change every 3 months. the next 2 carbon block filters are tenner each and the ro membrane I have tyet to change.
at 200 euros ( get a loan from credit union or something) its a fiver a week for a one year load...
whats a fiver a week for both health and great beer. RO water rocks for brewing.
The waste is not waste..considering the Irish water people generally consider their water to be safe to consume and we then put it through the first three filters, how can we sa that RO waste water is waste when Reasonable safe water supply has gone through three 5-micron filters is crazy.. the filtered water which is very pure is used to backflush the sensitive ro membrane to remove minerals and and even the smallest molucules like fleouride.
with ro you can tap into the line after the third filter and just use plain triple filtered water or take the ro treated water from the end outlet. Thats a good choice
so for brewing
use RO water
step 1 save the first 2 gallons before going to bed
step 2 save the next two gallons then next morning and the u will have another 2 gallons while you brew
the other thing is use the 5 gallon containers in my slide show and save the water in advance
otherwise you can ge a much bigger tank
other idea may be for local groups to have a ro between yis.
Hopefully ye picked up on the main ingredient yesterday ....water.....get into it and ye wont look back.
The ro "waste can be saved into a tank and used, used for gardening or used for brewing whichever..its not waste.
as dr gearoid mentioned yesterday ion exchange water may be poblematic as theres salt exchanged for minerals and thats how its softened.....so dont confuse ro with it. RO is completely filtered water......then.......the minerals are removed by the second last filter (ro membrane) and then another final carbon filter to be sure.....
hope this helps give my insights...
If anyone wants to see it in action and discuss I have RO at sallins and also down at maltcracker base in kildare and have successsfully used it for 4 years
Here's a video from Bobby M showing how he collects his RO
https://youtu.be/oZuHZMLlpPc
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I believe that you need about 2-3 bar mains water pressure to work the cheaper units if you don't have this pressure then you'll need a pumped system similar to the one in Bren's link
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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on April 25, 2016, 08:43:44 AM
I believe that you need about 2-3 bar mains water pressure to work the cheaper units if you don't have this pressure then you'll need a pumped system similar to the one in Bren's link
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Agree gud mains pressure is required. Theres only 20euro diference therefore i recomend pumped anyways
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Can a system like that adjust the PH of tap water?
I have heard a lot of people in my area complain of things like IBS and skin complaints, and blame the acid water in the sallins and Johnstown area. We buy gallons of drinking water in the household because of it. 200 euro seems like a reasonable investment to prevent such ailments.
I believe that RO systems will modify the pH as they are removing the ions that move the baseline pH 7.
Now when it comes to the comment that RO water needs 3 or 4 times the amount of fresh water where does this info come from? The video clearly shows the initial 3 filters, Sediment and 2 carbon filters. These have to be replaced periodically. The expensive bit is the RO filter wihich has the semi-permeable membrane. Are these replaced or back flushed?
Not sure if back flushing would work!
My earlier post........4 yrs never changed a ro membrane. The membrsne flushes at a ratio to ro water demand automatocally
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Wil hav to setup a mastetclass in ro water! To debunk all de myths and inform ye
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Quote from: Motorbikeman on April 25, 2016, 10:06:00 AM
Can a system like that adjust the PH of tap water?
I have heard a lot of people in my area complain of things like IBS and skin complaints, and blame the acid water in the sallins and Johnstown area. We buy gallons of drinking water in the household because of it. 200 euro seems like a reasonable investment to prevent such ailments.
Irish water shud ensure water is ph neutral. Sallins water is 40 to 50 ppm and ph 7.5 today(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/d4d056aff039682131a02f32e392ac02.jpg) as i speak
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I found this; https://www.osmotics.co.uk/products/3-Stage-100-Gallon-Per-Day-Reverse-Osmosis-System.html might be a decent one for brewing - decent throughput, cheap, and 3 stage should be enough.
Great thread lads, anyone pull the trigger on one yet?
I picked up a 5 filter unit plus remineralisation unit and pump in Spain for €170 plus a full spare set of filters for €14. I'm on the way back up now and it's in the boot of the car. I'll probably take a tee off before the remineralisation unit for brewing water and use the other end for drinking. It's seems strange to strip all the minerals out and then add them back in, but I think it's something to do with the W.H.O.
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Was talking to a few lads and they sound the business, its now on my never ending brew equipment list
I think the idea of putting the minerals back in is that while stripping out all the bad stuff like lead, the good stuff gets taken out too. So the ideal solution is to remineralise the water after it has been brought back to h20
That's it. Remove everything and start with a blank canvas. It's much easier to add minerals then take them away so when your starting with just h2o it's easy with a calculator to get whatever water profile you want.
Also, according to a WHO report, if you drink just RO water, it will slowly leech minerals from your body, thus the reason you get a mineralisation filter when using it as drinking water.
Sorry I'm confused is that a good thing?, not sure I want to drink RO water, body needs minerals as well surely?
I've heard that about de ionized water but not RO. Haven't read up enough in it to know what the big difference is though.
No I was thinking for normal drinking water, drinking ro would be great if you were in an area with nasties from lead pipes or similar but human body need minerals from standard tap water?
You get a lot of salts and minerals from your food, more than you get from water. People throughout the world drink collected rain water which is fundamentally distilled water. You will need the RO water to act as a blank canvas for brewing, where you will want to add specific salts and minerals to build a brewing water profile. This is why I'll tee of before the remineralisation unit. The outfeed from the remineralisation cartridge will be fed to the drinking water tap. I'll have to research as to whether the remineralisation is actually of any real benefit.
The issue I see is that the reservoir tank will be filled with the remineralised water, and I will need a seperate vessel to collect RO for brewing.
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Watching yours and Nigels trials with interest, especially amount of water require to produce 1l, don't forget your Pegas ;)
Apparently these units need to be used regularly so I opted to install it in the kitchen under the sink rather than in my brew shed. The trade off was I had to install another kitchen Base unit in the utility room to make space for the stuff that was under the sink. So finally new kitchen unit installed in the utility room and stuff cleared out. It fits like a glove. There's a small weep coming from the top of the reservoir unit. I reckon there should have been a seal supplied with the valve connection. So I have it left off until I can pick one up tomorrow.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161016/2e8c8f570f76e9ab3a9f01b50fc3a102.jpg)
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Don't forget cheap TDS meter to check when filters are goosed. Saves changing them earlier than needed.
My neighbour changed the filters in his few weeks ago and I checked them his dissolved solids through the roof must have mad a bags of filter install. Again without tds you cant tell.
Cheers Declan
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I should have picked one up with the unit.
Where can ya get hold of a TDs?
Ditto, need to check that myself! I've installed in the kitchen as well and it takes about 7 hours to fill 25L. I just filled the old cider drums and going to have 2 always filled and waiting.
I hooked it up this evening and there was a substantial flow to drain at the start. I'll get the missing seal and report back
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The NCBers bought two of the cheap 3 stage systems (like £55 stg)
This is what I posted:
I have a fairly healthy mains pressure (say 2 bar but must check)
Quick test shows the waste to RO ratio is better than 2 to one. Is actually 1.7 to 1 at present.
Flow rate is 150 mL per minute or 9 litre per hour.
I imagine over time these figure will change.
What I don't understand in the whole RO process is:
"Why is there waste water?"
A RO membrane is a molecular/ion sized filter. It is just like a filter paper!
You don't get waste from a filter paper!
You are in theory just pumping water into a very very fine, very large surface area, filter. Pure water comes out, the ions don't.
It should be possible to back flush the filter with a "small" quantity of RO water to physically remove the ions. Like what you do with an ion exchange water softner.
(Like washing the sieve in the kitchen)