Any thoughts anyone on this type of counter flow which uses convoluted tubing.to allow max contact and heat exchange between hit wort and water.
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Plenty of americans use those as they're readily available over there. theelectricbrewery.com is one. It's a solid chunk of money even from china.
I've a stainless steel one that I bought from aliexpress. I've used it a few times now. No complaints so far. Don't know if it's convoluted though.
The grainfather ships with a similar counter flow chiller - just that the outer jacket is Qualplex or similar. Lot of HB'ers make there own from garden hose and 10 mm copper tubing. Plenty of posts on the forum about the diy version!
Just google counterflow chillers build
@Imark you'd know if it was convoluted if you put small pipe cleaner in. Do you recirculate or straight into fermenter?
Stainless versions are cheaper but I want to keep some copper in my brewing and also copper is inherently anti-microbial.
@Will yeah I know Dempsey bent his pipe down the railway station :) but it's smooth bore and you need a longer length as I think its not as efficient, I think the Grainfather is smooth bore as well?
I recirculate and whirlpool. I haven't checked if it's convoluted but I'd guess it isn't or they probably would have mentioned it I'd say.
I have a plate chiller and it's a bit of a bitch to recirculate unless you use a hop bag. The counterflow doesn't block as easily so might he a better option there. Also easier to clean.
here is a stainless one and approx the same price as beer and wine.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Stainless-Steel-304-Counterflow-Wort-Chiller-Brewing-Equipment-Garden-Hose-Fittings/1553652140.html?spm=2114.01020208.8.3.yHdcgl
http://www.mybeerandwine.ie/wort-chillers/183-stainless-convoluted-counter-flow-wort-chiller.html?search_query=chiller&results=4
stainless does offer more options i guess when using aggressive cleaning agents
I'm skeptical about these convoluted vs non-convoluted cfc. I'd like to see a side by side comparison.
So, if I take a length of copper pipe and twist it, it will reduce in length, but surface area I would think would remain relatively unchanged. So, a convoluted version vs non would use slightly more length of internal copper piping? Would this really be significant enough in length? I wouldn't think so.
So then, is the claim about agitation, more of the beer coming in contact with the surface area?
I have cf chiller with clear hosing - I can watch the water and you can see that the water flow is well agitated without the need of a convoluted internal pipe. Surely the beer in a non-convoluted pipe is going to be well agitated. In addition to this, what about thermal dynamics - beer cooling all the time and therefore reacting with warmer beer causing a convection affect in the piping which assists with agitation as well?
I don't have a degree in thermal dynamics or fluid mechanics. I think the only real way to tell is with a side by side comparison, flow rates matched, input water temp the same, wort same temp etc and see which cools quicker.
Someone fire up ANSYS
I made the attached earlier this year and it works a treat.
There is approx 10 meters of 1/2 inch copper inside 1 inch heat capable (120 degC) hosing. The copper inner has electrical cable spiraled around it to give the cooling water turbulence to maximize heat exchange and that is perhaps the convolutions referred to.
I would doubt that there is sufficient lenght in the copper only version to cool from 100 in to the 20s in one pass. Mine, in the summer would get to less than 24-25 in one pass and hoping for better in the winter (colder water source for cooling side) The copper only one would perhaps need an ice bank to get that temp differential .
I have been meaning to do a how to on it but time has not been given... If anyone is considering making one PM me and I will give you the cliff notes!
Damien that is some beautiful work. Do you slow the flow of wort through it at all? I'm surprised you can't get it lower in summer. My plate chiller is one pass year round.
Ok so now I'm an expert on the subject, turbulence is the key here for thermal transfer not only with water/wire on the outside but in the US guys have also threaded the inside(not advisable for copper quality and nightmare to clean) as what happens is the area inside even though its travelling through the pipe because of density has an inner and outer region with thermal differences especially with larger 1/2" bore. small bore aka grainfather is better as there is more contact area and convoluted or flow disrupted better again, speed of wort especially high speed with for example a chugger doesn't help and its a given that ambient water will have a significant impact.
Convoluted coils
http://www.packless.com/products/double-wall-condenser-coils.htm
Best options are big bore lots of turbulence, or small bore lots of length.
Quote from: armedcor on November 02, 2015, 11:51:48 AM
Damien that is some beautiful work. Do you slow the flow of wort through it at all? I'm surprised you can't get it lower in summer. My plate chiller is one pass year round.
Thanks Armedcor, I haven't played with it enough to get specifics so my 20 -25 degC is ballpark. Next time I use it I will take some details of temps. Slowing the wort does improve the DeltaT but reduces the whirlpool on the Recirc for cold break and still playing with that too.
I throttle back the flow and it's quite efficient. I can divert cold water via inline chiller for the final stage.
I went for 1/2" shorter length so it poses little resistance when I go full throttle to whirlpool.
If I was using it to go straight to fermentor rather than recirculate I'd have gone with a plate chiller for efficiency.
As I want to whirlpool I think I know where I am going to go on this one.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
@CH - http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,5267.75.html or page 6 of my electric brewery build, I have photos of how I put my cfc together.
An opinion and observation: I know people use the convoluted or wrap wire around for more turbulence, but looking at the water go through the clear tubing on my cfc, I very much doubt a bit of wire is going to increase significantly an already turbulent environment. I'd love to see a side by side.
But either way, my 10 metre cfc does the job on one pass to get it down to 24c - providing the wort is not being pumped full throttle. For the record though, I whirlpool back to the boil kettle. About 40/50 mins, ground water temp dependent and pump full open, to get 52lts of wort from 100 to under 24c.
Here's a question for you: 70euro in parts + time vs 200euro, do you think the perceived difference in efficiency is worth the price difference? If you do, go for it. You have to be happy with what you have or it'll cost you more in the long run, IMHO.
Do you reuse any of that water? I feel bad capturing only one bucket of hot water with my 10 minute chill time.
No I don't use any of that water. It's a bit of a waste. I might get a water butt and keep it for the garden, but then, it sure rains a lot here anyway.
Quote from: Ozbrewer on November 02, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
But either way, my 10 metre cfc does the job on one pass to get it down to 24c - providing the wort is not being pumped full throttle. For the record though, I whirlpool back to the boil kettle. About 40/50 mins, ground water temp dependent and pump full open, to get 52lts of wort from 100 to under 24c.
Here's a question for you: 70euro in parts + time vs 200euro, do you think the perceived difference in efficiency is worth the price difference? If you do, go for it. You have to be happy with what you have or it'll cost you more in the long run, IMHO.
24 Degrees is way too high for me
Currently I can get using double coil immersion chiller 54l down to 18 Degrees in 22 mins whirlpooling
Or 25l in 14mjns to 18 degrees or 10 degrees takes 19 mins
If I can get the same performance from a counter flow chiller that's not blocking my perfect hop cone that will be good enough for me.
You have achieved your cooling by using 10m of tubing or 30 feet but that's a lot of dead wort in there do you just drain it or something?
The convoluted tubes are circa 12ft in length or 4 metres but are a lot more thermally efficient.
It's not about money btw it's about brewing good beer besides 70 euros + my time = €470, well you didn't ask me my hourly rate ;)
Doesn't take everyone 20 hours to build ;)
Quote from: CH on November 02, 2015, 07:35:25 PM
It's not about money btw it's about brewing good beer besides 70 euros + my time = €470, well you didn't ask me my hourly rate ;)
Hahaha. Very good.
There is only about a litre of wort in the cfc 10mm pipe. I'm not too worried about that to be honest.
Pretty good results on the immersion chiller. I would say in winter I could get the temps lower than 24c no problem. I'm only going on the dial thermometer on the output of my cfc. I'm being conservative with the 24c I would say.
But, it is definitely 40/50mins to bring 52lt of wort to under 24c in the boil kettle from 100c by whirlpooling through the cfc back to the kettle. Once I have it under 24c then, I stop the whirlpool and pump through the cfc to the fermenter, cooling it more.
I think you should be able to achieve the temp you want with a cfc, but whirlpooling back into the boil kettle through the cfc might take longer than you are now doing it.
30 mins max with one arm tied behind my back blindfolded on 1 leg in a windtunnel,...here all week try the veal
Absolutely right and so I am borrowing one before I buy.
Selling that double coil immersion? ;)
Vultures hovering ;)
Usually my older stuff I try and give away to the local guys
This one may have to go down the scrap metal merchants tho ;)
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That's some amount of copper!!
2x10m coils
Quote from: CH on November 02, 2015, 10:03:59 PM
2x10m coils
Why not make your own counter flow chiller from the existing chiller copper? Scrap yard won't give you didly squat for the copper.
Shanna
I built my own but the stainless steel model that Imark bought from ali-express seems dear but by the time you have bought all the bits needed it was fair value. :)
Do people recirculate the water through their chiller?
I got a plate chiller and have just been flushing it down the drain on the exit from the chiller.
I just capture one fermenter full of the hottest water and use that for cleaning.
I pass back into the HLT until it's got about 30L and then dump the rest. Then I pass the hot water through the full system on cleanup to rince out all the pumps and vessels one last time before dumping the water.
So no Green Party wimps here then :D
I've seen people using that counter flow instead of a coil for herms brewing.
Using hot water from hlt?
Quote from: nigel_c on November 03, 2015, 01:50:51 PM
I've seen people using that counter flow instead of a coil for herms brewing.
Dempsey mentioned that to me and I was trying to draw up a diagram for the flows. Have you any links to a good example?
You will need a pump for the water and another for the wort.
Yep 2 pumps. One recirculating mash through one way and another pump running water through HLT.
Plan on trying it out with a plate chiller in the next while and see how it goes.
I think Adam, Beertourist is doing the same with the counter flow.
Quote from: nigel_c on November 03, 2015, 08:10:27 PM
Yep 2 pumps. One recirculating mash through one way and another pump running water through HLT.
Plan on trying it out with a plate chiller in the next while and see how it goes.
I think Adam, Beertourist is doing the same with the counter flow.
I was tempted to try with a plate chiller but I've read a few cases of guys clogging their chiller with grain etc. Just doesn't seem worth while.
Just waiting for a few bits and pieces to be delivered so I'll report beck when I get around to trying it out.
Well I use hops bags, made from cheese cloth. They're a lot finer than the muslin bags so I don't get any grains or husks in the plate chiller.
Yeah use a biab to filter the mash, even in a tun, and you'll have a clean feed into the plate chiller.
Actually there's an American crowd who makes biab bags for coolers. That might work!
I have one on the way from the states. Was about €40 for one built to fit a keggle and they do them to custom sizes as well. They work great for mash filtering, as well as make cleanup a snap; just lift the bag of grain out at the end and rince your mash tun.
http://www.brewinabag.com/collections/frontpage/products/the-brew-bag-for-keggles
Also, there's a discount code from brupolosy if you search in interwebs
Now just remember the rule of, "just because you can does'nt mean you should". I need that rule alot ;) :(.
A herms is a great idea because it works well with small batches. Commercial brewers do not appear to do it. When you want to adjust the mash temp you cannot wait all day so the water used to adjust it needs to be able to be heated quickly,thus small amount e.g. 6 Litres can be heated quickly and so it in turn heats up the mash liquid. If you use the HLT then you will need a large heat source in it to be able to make the temp change in the mash. If you decide to go with a counterflow unit to effect mash temp change then you still have the decide how you first heat the water that is used to effect change in the mash wort. You also will need another pump to push the water around. :)
Oh Brian you don't mean Herms like using a 3kw element (standard socket) in 6 litres that allows me to raise temp 1 degree every 40 secs in 15l mash or every 75 secs in a 30l mash do you?
Picture fatigue this image has on this forum , but it is pretty.
Do I win a prize for bullshit bingo? Ah please...
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I really want to build myself one of those, got a loan of a braumeister for the past month and having complete control over mash has been eye opening.
On the subject of counterflow chillers I saw this article lately https://byo.com/mead/item/2849-double-pipe-wort-chiller-projects (https://byo.com/mead/item/2849-double-pipe-wort-chiller-projects) and it looked really good as you can take it apart at the ends to clean it, but then I stumbled upon this http://jadedbrewing.com/collections/counterflow-chillers/products/the-jaded-cfc (http://jadedbrewing.com/collections/counterflow-chillers/products/the-jaded-cfc) it's not as compact as the coiled counterflow but they say that they're more efficient.
Aah CH your unit is both effective and pretty. :)
ugh that fecking herms...I always want it haha