Howdy.
I'm looking for some opinions from experienced sour brewers. I'm looking to do some mixed fermentations and thinking about investing in a couple of PET carboys to do the long-term aging? Is this a good or a bad idea?
I'm not keen on the idea of glass carboys, so would rather the plastic alternative.
Plenty of opinions online, of course, but I'd appreciate some firsthand experience from the NHC.
Cheers!
I'm not that experienced but I'm pretty sure you'll be told they are o2 permeable. So your options are glass or cornys for long term aging. With cornys you can flush them with co2.
Demi-johns are great. The same glass advantages but lighter, more mobile and less likely to smash on you than a massive carboy. You can spilt batches. I think with sours you don't necessarily want 27L of the same. I might want one straight, one on cherries, one with different bottle dregs etc
why not glass?
As somebody commented recently cornys are the same price and better still you can put a co2 blanket on them and they are in the complete dark
Yeah with the price of cornys I'm getting tempted to just use them all the way through the process.
Thanks for all the comments lads. The permeability of the PET carboy is a concern, and although a little oxygen ingress is desired for the beers I have in mind, I do want to be somewhat in control of this.
CH, I don't want the hassle of glass. There's the safety aspect too, I'm a fairly cack-handed sod, and I know I'd break one of those things as soon as look at it! :)
I'm just so used to the plastic buckets for fermentation, and they've never done me wrong.
Fair point on the corny kegs. I actually have a brett beer conditioning in a corny, but I don't want to dedicate many cornies to the aging of sour beers. Plus I want to be able to see the pellicle.. :-[ :-[ ;)
Quote from: Bubbles on November 24, 2015, 11:57:17 AM
Thanks for all the comments lads. The permeability of the PET carboy is a concern, and although a little oxygen ingress is desired for the beers I have in mind, I do want to be somewhat in control of this.
CH, I don't want the hassle of glass. There's the safety aspect too, I'm a fairly cack-handed sod, and I know I'd break one of those things as soon as look at it! :)
I'm just so used to the plastic buckets for fermentation, and they've never done me wrong.
Fair point on the corny kegs. I actually have a brett beer conditioning in a corny, but I don't want to dedicate many cornies to the aging of sour beers. Plus I want to be able to see the pellicle.. :-[ :-[ ;)
As someone who once cracked a full (water thankfully) glass carboy I try and stay away from them if possible!!
I use cornies. They work great and you can use them for regular beer in future if you give them a good clean and possibly change of rings if you want to be thorough.
I'm fairly kack handed and have yet to break one through rough handling, boiling water and blowing over in the wind yep ;)
PET carboys are a great choice. They are light, durable, transparent and only minimally oxygen permeable. Check out the comments at the end of this mad fermentationist post:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/05/aging-sour-beers-in-better-bottles-and.html
I would rank PET carboys above glass carboys (mainly for ease of use) and alongside cornies. Aging sour beers in cornies ties them up for a long time but they do make transfers easy. PET carboys are great for long term aging as long as you are careful with transfers not to introduce too much oxygen.
I have a lambic and a flanders red in Pet carboys. the lambics been in it for nearly 18 months now and there doesn't seem to be any problems, off tastes etc.
As Dr Jacoby said the mad fermentationist has been using pet carboys almost exclusively for the last few years I think.
Where do people keep their aging beer in PET clear plastic carboys to make sure light is not an issue. Would a black plastic bag over it do or do we need to be more thorough...
I use PET vintage shop carboys for sour aging as they mimic the the 02 permeability of barrels. You just need to fill them pretty full & seal them with a carboy cap completely. Keep the cardboard box it comes in as you can stick the full carboy back in for aging & not have to worry about sunlight.
There are a few threads on this about the internet. Some lads even stick paired down oak staves into the vent of the carboy cap.
I keep mine in an old chest freezer that I use exclusively for sour/funky beers (it's broken so I can only heat it up - I try to keep it at about 16C).
I reckon a bag or blanket would be fine.
I have a big chunk of oak floating in my red right now. Hopefully it'll come out easy enough :P Colm I just keep mine in empty press which is hardly ever opened. A black bag would be graand
Thanks for all the comments lads. Great to see a couple of ye recommend the PET carboys for this purpose.
The advantage of cornies is that I don't have to worry about covering up the beer to prevent it being lightstruck (not a big deal, I know..) and that the size of the corny just about matches the volume of beer I plan on aging, 18-19 litres. But is the complete lack of oxygen permeability going to detrimental to say, a Flanders Red?
The PET carboys are around 23 litres too - is this too much headspace to age ~19 litres of sour beer? Will the pellicle not protect it anyway?
I aged 19 litres of flanders in a 23 litre PET carboy for a year. (100% roselare ferment. Racked off cake after a few weeks onto 50g cab sav oak cubes)
One beer nerd whose palate I respect a lot said it needed more vinegar, another said it was fantastic. More of the same from the other brewers in work. No idea how it went down at sour fest as I never got any score sheets back. I personally think its a great beer. Ive kept half it back to blend with the next batch this time next year. I broke the pellicle a few times moving it, taking samples etc over the aging period & it still came out great. Id go for it in a PET. They're cheap (not as cheap as i remember though - I payed 23e each from geterbrewed - everyone has them at 30e now). If I can find my bag of cab sav oak cubes Il send some up with the brew club tees.
You would need oxygen if you're after the acetic. No reason you can't leave some in there and then shut the valve.
That way you prevent any further oxygen getting in.
Cornies also allow you get your hand in to pull out oak cubes etc and have a ready made dip tube so you can sample with minimum disturbance to pellicle.
It's by far the best way to go imo. I've 5 full of mixed fermentation aging away at the moment.
PET carboys are roughly €30,glass carboys roughly €37,why would you even bother with plastic at that price difference ? The glass ones are no harder to manage than the plastic,just be careful is all and don't clean them with boiling water :P
I had four of them for two years and even i didn't manage to break one,put them in an empty 33litre Fv for transporting. I can understand why plastic has an appeal when the price difference is significant but it isn't in this case,also if you are talking sours etc lets be honest glass is far superior, for only a few bob more no staining or lingering smells worries,unlike plastic. ;D
Quote from: Hop Bomb on November 24, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
I aged 19 litres of flanders in a 23 litre PET carboy for a year. (100% roselare ferment. Racked off cake after a few weeks onto 50g cab sav oak cubes)
One beer nerd whose palate I respect a lot said it needed more vinegar, another said it was fantastic. More of the same from the other brewers in work. No idea how it went down at sour fest as I never got any score sheets back. I personally think its a great beer. Ive kept half it back to blend with the next batch this time next year. I broke the pellicle a few times moving it, taking samples etc over the aging period & it still came out great. Id go for it in a PET. They're cheap (not as cheap as i remember though - I payed 23e each from geterbrewed - everyone has them at 30e now). If I can find my bag of cab sav oak cubes Il send some up with the brew club tees.
Cheers for that Tom, you're a gent. Great info also.
Quote from: imark on November 24, 2015, 06:38:22 PM
You would need oxygen if you're after the acetic. No reason you can't leave some in there and then shut the valve.
That way you prevent any further oxygen getting in.
Cornies also allow you get your hand in to pull out oak cubes etc and have a ready made dip tube so you can sample with minimum disturbance to pellicle.
It's by far the best way to go imo. I've 5 full of mixed fermentation aging away at the moment.
I must admit, I'm warming to the idea of the corny option. I've already got cornies, and I should be able to spare 1 or 2 to age the sours.
So, what's the best way of leaving the oxygen in? Just put the lid in place and don't seat it with CO2 for a couple of weeks/months?
So you take samples by pushing the beer out with CO2 through a picnic tap or similar? And this doesn't disturb the pellicle?
You can even buy a few for aging beers - at €40 a pop, they are light proof and don't take up much room in the corner.
For O2, could always just take off the gas off post and put an airlock in there instead - the plastic is not airtight, so you'd have slow ingress. As for taking sample, the diptube is at the bottom, so you'd just push a little co2 in and the beer would be drawn from the bottom without touching the pellicle...
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 24, 2015, 06:54:22 PMalso if you are talking sours etc lets be honest glass is far superior, for only a few bob more no staining or lingering smells worries,unlike plastic. ;D
I've never had staining or lingering smells using PET.
They're much lighter than glass carboys which helps when they're full. They're also shatter resistant and cheaper. I honestly can't see a good reason to choose glass over PET.
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on November 25, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 24, 2015, 06:54:22 PMalso if you are talking sours etc lets be honest glass is far superior, for only a few bob more no staining or lingering smells worries,unlike plastic. ;D
I've never had staining or lingering smells using PET.
They're much lighter than glass carboys which helps when they're full. They're also shatter resistant and cheaper. I honestly can't see a good reason to choose glass over PET.
They are easier to clean because you don't have to worry about scratching them,if you use iodine sanitiser which a lot of people do they won't stain,they are less likely to have micro scratches after years of use where bacteria could breed,you should change your plastic after a couple of years and you don't need to do this with glass.If you do sours etc glass is less likely to hold on to anything you might not want going into next brew. I am not saying plastic is bad,just that for similar money why would you not get glass,should you ever need to move them if you put them in a FV bucket in the first place it is easy enough,after all even full they only weigh about 30kg which is not a lot.
Personal preference really i suppose but like i said for the same money almost i think glass is a better material by far,if you are careful it will last far longer than any plastic.I should also point out all my FV's currently are plastic cause i sold me fecking glass carboys( :-[ ) so i have nothing against plastic,just prefer glass in this case. ;D
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 25, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on November 25, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 24, 2015, 06:54:22 PMalso if you are talking sours etc lets be honest glass is far superior, for only a few bob more no staining or lingering smells worries,unlike plastic. ;D
I've never had staining or lingering smells using PET.
They're much lighter than glass carboys which helps when they're full. They're also shatter resistant and cheaper. I honestly can't see a good reason to choose glass over PET.
They are easier to clean because you don't have to worry about scratching them,if you use iodine sanitiser which a lot of people do they won't stain,they are less likely to have micro scratches after years of use where bacteria could breed,you should change your plastic after a couple of years and you don't need to do this with glass.If you do sours etc glass is less likely to hold on to anything you might not want going into next brew. I am not saying plastic is bad,just that for similar money why would you not get glass,should you ever need to move them if you put them in a FV bucket in the first place it is easy enough,after all even full they only weigh about 30kg which is not a lot.
Personal preference really i suppose but like i said for the same money almost i think glass is a better material by far,if you are careful it will last far longer than any plastic.I should also point out all my FV's currently are plastic cause i sold me fecking glass carboys( :-[ ) so i have nothing against plastic,just prefer glass in this case. ;D
Will somebody please check the author of that last post!! Far too reasonable to be Greg :) Almost feel like buying more cornies, pet & glass carboys after reading this.
Shanna
A full corny is much easier to move/lift than a full carboy too
Major issue with PET long term exposure, like anyone knows if you have tonic water from last Christmas gases migrate through it and that's great for sours as like a barrel you want a bit of breathing into it and yeah you can't break them and they are easy to handle but for the guy that sells the stuff for a living I have a couple of problems with PET;
Its a relatively young product in plastic terms that has been adopted wholesale by converters and consumers alike as its considered a "wonder product" and our knowledge base as to its adverse effects to our health is still not well known or comprehensively studied in spite of the product being in the market for 35 years.
In the same way that there were issues raised surrounding Polycarbonate in the 60's over Bisphenol A which we now know to be harmful with possible health effects on the brain, behaviour and prostate gland of fetuses, infants and children.
Polyethylene Terephthalate leeches a toxic metalloid, antimony. When stored at room temperature or less, the amount of antimony that leaches is generally deemed safe, but as temperatures increases eg stored in an uninsulated garage for a few months in the summer or other warm areas, the levels can exceed the recommended limits.
There are potentially other issues as well in that it may be affected by low ph beers or some of the complex compounds given off in the souring process.
So in summary it's not inert and until more research is done I'll be sticking with glass.
Do you do all your fermentation in glass?
Quote from: Shanna on November 25, 2015, 08:07:02 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 25, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on November 25, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
Quote from: Greg2013 on November 24, 2015, 06:54:22 PMalso if you are talking sours etc lets be honest glass is far superior, for only a few bob more no staining or lingering smells worries,unlike plastic. ;D
I've never had staining or lingering smells using PET.
They're much lighter than glass carboys which helps when they're full. They're also shatter resistant and cheaper. I honestly can't see a good reason to choose glass over PET.
They are easier to clean because you don't have to worry about scratching them,if you use iodine sanitiser which a lot of people do they won't stain,they are less likely to have micro scratches after years of use where bacteria could breed,you should change your plastic after a couple of years and you don't need to do this with glass.If you do sours etc glass is less likely to hold on to anything you might not want going into next brew. I am not saying plastic is bad,just that for similar money why would you not get glass,should you ever need to move them if you put them in a FV bucket in the first place it is easy enough,after all even full they only weigh about 30kg which is not a lot.
Personal preference really i suppose but like i said for the same money almost i think glass is a better material by far,if you are careful it will last far longer than any plastic.I should also point out all my FV's currently are plastic cause i sold me fecking glass carboys( :-[ ) so i have nothing against plastic,just prefer glass in this case. ;D
Will somebody please check the author of that last post!! Far too reasonable to be Greg :) Almost feel like buying more cornies, pet & glass carboys after reading this.
Shanna
Twas the month off the booze i tell ya :P
Quote from: delzep on November 25, 2015, 08:27:13 PM
A full corny is much easier to move/lift than a full carboy too
Jaysus lads start eating yere fecking Weetabix will ye :P
Quote from: CH on November 25, 2015, 09:49:05 PM
Major issue with PET long term exposure, like anyone knows if you have tonic water from last Christmas gases migrate through it and that's great for sours as like a barrel you want a bit of breathing into it and yeah you can't break them and they are easy to handle but for the guy that sells the stuff for a living I have a couple of problems with PET;
Its a relatively young product in plastic terms that has been adopted wholesale by converters and consumers alike as its considered a "wonder product" and our knowledge base as to its adverse effects to our health is still not well known or comprehensively studied in spite of the product being in the market for 35 years.
In the same way that there were issues raised surrounding Polycarbonate in the 60's over Bisphenol A which we now know to be harmful with possible health effects on the brain, behaviour and prostate gland of fetuses, infants and children.
Polyethylene Terephthalate leeches a toxic metalloid, antimony. When stored at room temperature or less, the amount of antimony that leaches is generally deemed safe, but as temperatures increases eg stored in an uninsulated garage for a few months in the summer or other warm areas, the levels can exceed the recommended limits.
There are potentially other issues as well in that it may be affected by low ph beers or some of the complex compounds given off in the souring process.
So in summary it's not inert and until more research is done I'll be sticking with glass.
More good reasons glass is superior, but to each their own,i'm off to boil some wort in my aluminium kettle :o
Picked up a HBC corny on the way while I drove down the country today with all the intention to use it for my next sour but now I'm thinking of doing all my fermentation in kegs! God damn I'll need to get a few more can't hold this one up for 12/18 months! This hobby....
Funny you mention fermentation in kegs, as it's something I've started thinking about as well. It's quite tempting as they're quite tall and narrow in the fermentation fridge as well...
Yea I've just been obsessing over that ss brewtech bucket and for the price I could ferment in like 4 cornys if I really wanted to. Bit of a no brainer as I want to cut down on batch sizes as well.
Bought one of these a couple of years back, used it 3 times and it now winks at me every time I open cupboard, maybe time to dust off again
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/27/38a8ac93e0db227c30b864112dc49c0e.jpg)
5 dollars!? They easy to get?
At that price they are worth considering as a replacement lid for cornies that don't seal well, I'd weld up the hole and use them.
Would they really need the bubbler? If you used a standard one the pressure produced wouldn't be enough to seal the keg but enough to keep nasties out.
I'm planning the connect a gas in disconnect and run a blow off tuning into sanitizer. But I'd love one of those lids....or maybe two!
Quote from: armedcor on November 28, 2015, 01:14:30 AM
I'm planning the connect a gas in disconnect and run a blow off tuning into sanitizer. But I'd love one of those lids....or maybe two!
Would a corny filled with fermenting wort have sufficient headspace to act as a primary fermenter? Reading comments - http://www.homebrewing.org/Cornelius-Keg-Lid-for-Secondary-Fermenter_p_999.html on that site CH posted the link to does not recommend it. I suppose you could reduce the amount of wort in it to give more headspace.
Maybe using a 30 litre brewery keg would be the way to go.
Shanna
Yea like I said I'm looking to reduce my batch sizes slightly so I wouldn't mind putting 15/17 liters in there.
Just use 2 filled to 10-15 litres?
Yea that's what I do. I have two gas disconnects attached to some tubing to use as blow offs. I can fit four cornies in my fridge so I can ferment two 19L batches at a time.
Here's some more info on using cornies for fermentation: http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php?topic=5937.0
Why would you need head space or need to let it blow off? Why not just put the lid on tight as you can get it and let it seal itself. It should ferment fine under the small amount of pressure generated
http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/27/under-pressure-the-impact-of-higher-psi-fermentations-exbeeriment-results-2/
Quote from: Simon_ on November 30, 2015, 10:32:42 AM
Why would you need head space
If you only used one corny the krausen would block up the disconnects. Things would get messy. That's why I use two cornies each half filled.
Quote from: Simon_ on November 30, 2015, 10:32:42 AMor need to let it blow off?
Even breweries that cap fermentations to allow a build up of pressure only do so after the initial vigorous stages are over and they usually control the pressure build up using release valves so that it doesn't go above a certain level. I use blow off tubes for the initial stage and then sometimes I'll attached a spunding valve to allow a build up of pressure to ensure no oxygen gets in.
Quote from: Simon_ on November 30, 2015, 10:32:42 AMWhy not just put the lid on tight as you can get it and let it seal itself. It should ferment fine under the small amount of pressure generated
Assuming the lid did actually form a seal that didn't allow the gases to escape throughout fermentation, I think the pressure build up would be considerable. It's one thing to cap off a vessel towards the end of fermentation. Quite another to do it from the start. I'd be worried the pressure would make life too difficult for the yeast.