National Homebrew Club Ireland

Just looking for a bit of advice....

I have used danstar Nottingham before with poor temperature control and produced some solventy beers (temperatures usually around 20c). Fermentation has always been vigorous with a good krausen after 24 hrs.

I've invested in a temp controller and pitched a pack of rehydrated Nottie ( in date and vacuum pack intact) into 25l at og 1.044 at 16c. I've set the temp for 14.5.
Owing to space restrictions in my fridge I can't fit an airlock on top of the fermenting vessel.
30 hrs post pitching and now at 14.5c there is no sign of a krausen forming..as this is my only way of telling if it's actively fermenting im a little concerned.
What should I expect re krausen  when should I expect it at this temperature and with this yeast???
Can a krausen fail to form but fermentation still happen at this lower temp??

Any advice/experiences would be appreciated

14.5 is a low temperature to use that yeast at. Bump it up to 18-20 and you should be good

I've had Fusel alcohol taints with Nottie at 18-20c so was looking to avoid this... I've been told that 14-17c is fine for this yeast and that it's practically a lager yeast....
Just don't know what to expect as I've never fermented at these lower temperatures

Way too low at 14 who told you that
aim for 18-19 crank to 20 after a week to finish out.
Fermentation should always be a controlled process not a bucket jumper to start

Chatted to some experienced Brewers at a south Dublin club meeting during the summer ( at the height of my taint issues) and the consensus was that Nottie does best at 15c ( unless I've misremembered!).... Also danstar themselves say 14-17c...

Quote from: CC on December 23, 2015, 09:36:27 PM
Chatted to some experienced Brewers at a south Dublin club meeting during the summer ( at the height of my taint issues) and the consensus was that Nottie does best at 15c ( unless I've misremembered!).... Also danstar themselves say 14-17c...

Errr.. no chance you heard that information at an SD meet!

Notty should be just fine at 20C, it will not throw fusels at that temperature unless you pitch at a higher temperature or your thermometer is off.

SHANNA!!!!!!
Forgive them Homebrew Lord they know not what they say!

Only joking SCD has really come on and I think you misheard, I really wouldn't b happy below 17 and over 22

Quote from: Bubbles on December 23, 2015, 10:40:01 PM


Notty should be just fine at 20C, it will not throw fusels at that temperature unless you pitch at a higher temperature or your thermometer is off.

The issue with the English ale yeasts is fermenting too low as opposed to anything else isn't it?  That's what I've heard/read and why I don't use them as I've not got proper temperature control.

However Danstar say it works from 14C-21C http://www.danstaryeast.com/company/products/nottingham-ale-beer-yeast  ???

Up here in the cold north where my brother doesn't ever put the heating on I've still managed to get great results with notty. The fermentation room is normally around 15c but if I wrap a duvet round the fermenter it brings it to 18c and the yeast chugs along nicely.

Just an update lads...
So I pulled the fermentation vessel out of the fridge and had a look in through the airlock hole last night and with the help of a bright torch I could see.....

2cm of really healthy looking krausen floating on what should now be beer!
Clean co2 aromas coming off vessel too

This was 36 hrs after pitching at 16.5c
Temp set at 14.5 which was achieved and maintained 6hrs post pitching

17 days time hopefully I have a really clean low yeast profile beer!

If you want neutral yeast profile you should probably use US05. If you got fusel alcohol from Nottingham at 20C I'd say I wasn't the temperature that was the issue. More likely to be poor yeast health or infection.
Glad it's tipping along now. Let us know how you get on.

Cc, it could be the 30C water you're rehydrating the yeast in. Seems a bit high, but the instructions might say otherwise.

CH, you're very quick to point the finger there dude! :) I don't believe shanna had anything to do with that particular bit of advice. :)

Notty is particularly unforgiving when fermented warm. I'd try sprinkling next time, or rehydrating in cooler water. If it was me..

Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 24, 2015, 03:00:12 AM

Quote from: Bubbles on December 23, 2015, 10:40:01 PM


Notty should be just fine at 20C, it will not throw fusels at that temperature unless you pitch at a higher temperature or your thermometer is off.

The issue with the English ale yeasts is fermenting too low as opposed to anything else isn't it?  That's what I've heard/read and why I don't use them as I've not got proper temperature control.

However Danstar say it works from 14C-21C http://www.danstaryeast.com/company/products/nottingham-ale-beer-yeast  ???

It's both really.. If you ferment too low you run the risk of the yeast floccing out and not starting at all. You also run the risk of suppressing the ester production, which you really want from an English yeast strain.

I wouldn't let the lack of temperature control put you off doing English styles. The temperature range is quite broad, you just need to be a bit careful not to ferment at high or low extremes.

I used Notty at 16 for an IPA once and it was fine. Heard of people going lower too for faux lagers but I'd imagine it takes a bit of looking after to get it to work.

Ok lads so final gravity with hydrometer looking like a 1.012/1.013...
Racked off last night with a very healthy looking yeast cake, no signs of infection and what seems to my taste buds to be a very tasty beer!

Quote from: CC on January 12, 2016, 10:23:13 AM
Ok lads so final gravity with hydrometer looking like a 1.012/1.013...
Racked off last night with a very healthy looking yeast cake, no signs of infection and what seems to my taste buds to be a very tasty beer!

Happy days. If it tastes nice out of the fermenter, it's sure to taste nice after a few weeks conditioning in the bottle.

If it's decent you might want to enter it in the competition too. http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/competition  ;)

I would enter it but I'm not confident with my priming/carbonation skills just yet...
For better or worse I decided to rack the first 10 and last 10 bottles with no sugar (my thought process here is that these are the most likely to have higher yeast counts and if left alone for long enough should condition just fine... I was chatting to Paul from Beoir Chorca Dhuibhne last summer on a trip to Kerry and he said that he thinks there is a different mouth feel to a beer conditioned without sugar- he reckons you get finer or smaller co2 bubbles)
I then racked 10 bottles with 1/2 teaspoon caster sugar and a further 8 with 1/4 teaspoon caster sugar...
I'm not too sure what to expect but something along the line of :
1/2 teaspoon conditioned after 3 wks
1/4 teaspoon conditioned after 6wks
No sugar conditioned after 8 wks
What is your experience guys??

Quote from: CC on January 12, 2016, 03:33:56 PM
I would enter it but I'm not confident with my priming/carbonation skills just yet...
For better or worse I decided to rack the first 10 and last 10 bottles with no sugar (my thought process here is that these are the most likely to have higher yeast counts and if left alone for long enough should condition just fine... I was chatting to Paul from Beoir Chorca Dhuibhne last summer on a trip to Kerry and he said that he thinks there is a different mouth feel to a beer conditioned without sugar- he reckons you get finer or smaller co2 bubbles)
I then racked 10 bottles with 1/2 teaspoon caster sugar and a further 8 with 1/4 teaspoon caster sugar...
I'm not too sure what to expect but something along the line of :
1/2 teaspoon conditioned after 3 wks
1/4 teaspoon conditioned after 6wks
No sugar conditioned after 8 wks
What is your experience guys??

I think you've misunderstood something here.. assuming I understood your post..

The beer is not going to carbonate without sugar, not if it's fully fermented out. The residual yeast has nothing to consume in order to create CO2! The brewer you were speaking with was probably referring to the difference between force carbonated and bottle conditioned beers.

If I was you, I'd get some carb drops or a small amount of sugar into those bottles you neglected to prime.

That brewer might also have been talking about carbing using malt extract. The talk on the internet is that it produces finer co2 bubbles. It would definitely leave some more residual malt sweetness but whether or not it would make a difference in such small doses I'm not sure.

I use this calculator for carbonation. http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html

no the conversation was about the relative merits of different sugars as stimulants for bottle conditioning (not forced carbing). we were comparing carbonation levels and in particular mouth feel for the different types of sugars...dme,sucrose, dextrose fructose.

the argument made was that seeing as no yeast has a 100% attenuation rate there must always be sugar remaining in your beer.
at its very best nottie can attenuate to a final gravity of 1.008...even at this, there must still be some sugars left in solution in the beer- otherwise the final gravity would have to be the same as the water that was used to make the beer....
so if my final gravity reads at 1.012 (which is fairly standard for nottie) i must have an amount of sugar left for bottle conditioning...then as long as there is viable yeast (ie non floculated yeast) in suspension bottle conditioning must happen.

if i remember correctly (this conversation was had at the brewery pub over a few too many cask ales!) paul put forward a theory that the attenuation rate achieved by a yeast relates  in some cosmic/natural order of the world way, to its floculation rate so that if there is very little sugar left in the final beer there will be lots of viable yeast and vice versa....thus it was his opinion that allowing  for the right amount time and temperature etc all beers should bottle condition naturally, if brewed properly and in particular if the correct temperatures are maintained for the yeast, and this is preferable to adding sugars....

i don't know... only one way to find out i spose!!

Hehe, well, yeast can't actually convert all types of sugar, maltotriose being the trickiest and maltodextrose just being too much for its wee mouth to fit. Also, as they convert, they are making an environment which doesn't exactly suit them, which doesn't help either.

Attenuation depends on yeast health, growth rates and the fermentation environment as well, so even if there is some residual sugar, you'd need fresh yeast and it will be impacted by the low oxygen and high alcohol environment in which it now finds itself.

Tl/Dr, give the poor buggers some easy sugar to carb - we give them a hard enough time as it is making our delicious nectar. :)

Hmm.. if that's the case then it contradicts everything I've ever read about bottle conditioning. The implication is that yeast will just keep eating residual sugars, but I have beers that are three years old whose carbonation level hasn't changed since they were first fully carbed. Molc emphasises the point that these sugars are simply unfermentable by brewers yeast after the beer has achieved final gravity.

I don't think it's correct to say that notty cannot ferment beyond 1.008. Attenuation levels are dependent on many factors - mash temps, recipe etc. You're basing your approach on this theory, that you still have another 4 points to ferment out if you just exercise patience. I just can't see this happening.

But if you can find a written source to back up this theory, I'd love to read it. As I said, it contradicts every brewing book I've ever read.

I'd fully expect those bottles to be flat as a pancake in a years time. But, it's your beer and your experiment. Just my two cents, as they say. :)