I have never brewed a nice pilsner.
I am blaming my water :P
But seriously - if this is my profile
Sodium as Na, mg/L 18.7
Potassium as K, mg/L 2.5
Magnesium as Mg, mg/L 7.2
Calcium as Ca, mg/L 72.2
Chloride as Cl, mg/L 30.4
Nitrate as NO3, mg/L 8.0
Phosphate as PO4, mg/L <1
Sulphate as SO4, mg/L 38.2
Total alkalinity as CaCO3, mg/L 164
pH 7.1
Conductivity, uScm-1 at 20C 451
Total residual chlorine as Cl2, mg/L <0.01
and I cut it in half with RO water
What needs doing ?
Even halved your alkalinity is way high. Adding acids would contribute additional minerals. Do you use acid malt? That would really help! I think it reduces pH by .1 per % of grist. You'd need to get your pH down a bit more first. Try boiling the water the night before. That way you precipitate out all the carbonates and don't add any extra sulphates or chlorides. You'd just need to add back in some calcium in the mash then. I think CaCl flakes would work. You'd only need a couple of grams.
If I went 75% RO, would that help, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
I haven't used acid malts but don't mind giving it a go
You'd need 85% RO water to bring your CaCO3 down to 25ppm, which is the top end of what you want. If you can coax some Calcium back in, then, you'll be right. Not sure how you do that without unbalancing everything else!
I'll have a look at the sums after lunch and see if I can help you with the numbers.
Just move house, less hassle. :P
I did a pilsner recently with half ro water and half tap. My water is very alkaline too. I used acid malt until the ph was within range and it turned out real nice
I'll bring you a 50l drum
Boiling only gets rid of temporary hardness (mainly chalk) but only to 50 ppm in ideal circumstances. Cutting your water with RO water is the easiest option. 75% or 85% is fine.
I'd add just a small amount of gypsum if you're brewing a crisp German Pils. Add chloride for maltier rounder styles. But keep your overall calcium level around 50 ppm.
That's the text book approach but you'd get away with higher amounts, especially if you're doing a German Pils.
I have used the same kettle in my family home for making my tea everyday for the last 7 years. Its still like new inside. Perfect . no scale. Toilets and taps still working normally with no build up.
Would that suggest I have very soft water and is not great for brewing with?
Sallins is on the same supply as me in Naas (the Ballymore treatment plant). We have very soft water, which is great for brewing pale beers.
Pale beers being Pilsners and Lager and not so much Pale Ales?
Soft water is usually good for any pale beer, ales included. When you include darker malts, especially roasted malts, you usually need to offset the acidity of the malts plus the low buffering potential of the soft water with some baking soda or chalk.
If you look at beersmith water profile for Munich it's quite alkaline pH8 and hard.
Any idea how this lines up with soft water for lager?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160201/de3503e22d81d7ea644cb66f1a96a32d.jpg)
I have incredibly soft water, according to the water reports we did the pH was like 5.7. Unless I treat it any kind of hoppy beer just turns out pretty terrible. Great for lager type beers though.
@imark Most German lager breweries treat their water with lactic acid (from acidulated malt or a deliberately soured culture) for pH adjustments. I'm not sure if the purity laws allow for the use of RO filters and the like but you can be sure the water they use in their mash does not have a bicarbonate figure that high (unless they are brewing something dark).
@armedcor I'm not sure why you think soft water is bad for brewing hoppy beers (as long as they are pale). Low pH levels help to minimise harshness from hops. Many breweries install RO filters and other systems to produce soft water for their hoppy beers. If your hoppy beers are not turning out well I'd guess the problem lies elsehwere. On the other hand, a pH of 5.7 does seem very low for an Irish water profile (it's perfect for sparge water!). You might need to add a little baking soda to the mash to make sure the pH doesn't go too low, but the same would apply to lagers. Also, just to clarify, softness refers to the alkalinity of the water, not the pH. Low pH does tend to indicate low mineral levels but not necessarily. The real figure you need to keep an eye on for mash pH adjustment is the alkalinity.
Thanks Dr Jacoby. I was misinterpreting my water report. I was reminded of the talk you gave at brewcon. I plugged my water report into brunwater and after several years of trying to get my head round this I think the penny has finally dropped.
I have the slides from the talk if you'd like to take a look again. PM your email if you're interested.
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on February 01, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
Soft water is usually good for any pale beer, ales included. When you include darker malts, especially roasted malts, you usually need to offset the acidity of the malts plus the low buffering potential of the soft water with some baking soda or chalk.
Thanks. But when you say adjust, is there any particular measure.
As you are on the same water main as myself, how much baking soda would you use for a 25l batch?
Has anyone used Tesco Perthshire water? pH 6.2 and 1.50euro for a gallon.
I dunno. Since I've started adjusting water and primarily adding gypsum to hop forward beers they've been turning out much much better, The hops which used to be very muted now actually shine through. There's much more aroma and flavour.
It just goes along with everything I've read on water adjustment as well.
Quote from: Motorbikeman on February 01, 2016, 07:55:22 PMThanks. But when you say adjust, is there any particular measure. As you are on the same water main as myself, how much baking soda would you use for a 25l batch?
Cue unsatisfying answer: it depends...on what malts you are using, the grain to water ratio, what pH you actually want to settle on, how much salt you are happy to include in the beer etc.
If I were brewing a stout I'd probably use from 5 to 10 grams of baking soda, but I use a lot of water in my mashes so your mileage might differ. A tsp wouldn't see you too far off I reckon. Give it a go and see how it turns out :)
Quote from: armedcor on February 01, 2016, 08:00:05 PM
I dunno. Since I've started adjusting water and primarily adding gypsum to hop forward beers they've been turning out much much better, The hops which used to be very muted now actually shine through. There's much more aroma and flavour.
It just goes along with everything I've read on water adjustment as well.
Gypsum is great for hoppy beers in terms of flavour etc. I was talking about pH control in the mash. You can add gypsum to the boil for flavour if you like.
edit: just to clarify, you can use gypsum to lower the pH in the mash if you need to, and since it introduces calcium it has other benefits too. I've often just used gypsum in hoppy beers for pH control.
I get ya. I mean I only started doing water adjustments and ph control when I had my water tested so I'm sure it's all a contributing factor!
For my hoppy beers I'm just putting in gypsum and calcium chloride until my ph is good and I gave a so4/cl ratio around 1.8. Is that enough for now or am I doing something silly?
That's fine. Roughly how much of each are you adding?
Sorry for interrupting but where is the best place to get a full water report preferably in Ireland? Sorry for the slight hijack. Thanks.
I got a few from the HSE in my area but I'd recommend you get diy test kits for calcium and alkalinity. Water reports only give you a snap shot. Regular testing will tell you how stable your supply is
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on February 02, 2016, 09:16:39 AM
That's fine. Roughly how much of each are you adding?
I use Bru water, but no more than 2g of each on 20L of water.
Also, generally, keep an eye out for group buys on the water testing. There were rumours of looking to do it about every 6 months last time we were getting them done, which would have one coming up in the spring/summer...