National Homebrew Club Ireland

Get yourself one of these,they are dough ball killers. I would use it in a mash tun and 2 minutes later no dough balls left.

Under letting also stops dough balls completely, don't ask me how it's black magic.
I bought a metal spoon from mr lard as the monster stainless mash paddle I bought from mybeerandwine is just too big even for 12kgs of grain, I'll save it behind the door for intruders though


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Underletting?, that's my next Google search. Seeing as I visited dough ball central yesterday

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If you stir you sometimes push the dough balls around without breaking them up but I found that by using the strainer I was scooping them up and flushing the liquid through them. Works a treat.

Any of the underletting proponents care to add a thread on how it works & what is involved with a brew bag or false bottom? Would like to try it out but don't want to experiment & end up running a brew day without having a good idea of what I an doing. I have a pump & a bottom drain in my mashtun so I think it should work. Just not sure whether it's as simple as dumping the grist in to the mashtun and then pumping n litres of water out of the hlt in to mashtun.

Shanna

It is that simple!
You need to be certain that you have factored in vols for your hose and pump but I do that by pre filling them.
It's impossible to screw up.
Your grain will rise as it floats but will then mix as grain absorbs the water, a stir or 2 and away you go.
Personally I always give it a good stir but am yet to find a dough ball unlike filling the same vessel from the top
I challenge you to find a dough ball if you do it

Do mods want to create a new thread "dough balls" with these last posts so we don't spoil bargain alerts?

I'm going to be doing this next brew as I'm planning on setting it all up the night before and using the timer function on the hlt :) If it works it means I wouldn't need to touch the brew until mash out, which would be ace!

Cheers mods

On very big beers I use oat grain husks rinsed which do prevent stuck sparge but I think they also minimise dough balls as well.

Quote from: molc on April 09, 2016, 05:21:10 PM
I'm going to be doing this next brew as I'm planning on setting it all up the night before and using the timer function on the hlt :) If it works it means I wouldn't need to touch the brew until mash out, which would be ace!

Intrigued are you automatically timing the heating of the water & automatically pumping the water in to the mashtun. This makes me think you have motorised ball valves that are opening & closing based on certain events e.g. strike temp reached, mashin water volume transferred, mash completed etc.

Shanna

Intrigued also!
CH: do you underlet with water at strike temperature (e.g.  66C) or do you underlet with water below gelatinisation temperature (~50C) and then ramp to mash temperature?
If underletting works at mash temp, then it could save some setup time. Fill the mash tun with grain, and kettle with water the night before. In the morning, heat the water to mash temp, then pump up to mash tun. Bingo!
Thanks for this information- Ski

Quote from: Shanna on April 10, 2016, 09:32:10 AM

Quote from: molc on April 09, 2016, 05:21:10 PM
I'm going to be doing this next brew as I'm planning on setting it all up the night before and using the timer function on the hlt :) If it works it means I wouldn't need to touch the brew until mash out, which would be ace!

Intrigued are you automatically timing the heating of the water & automatically pumping the water in to the mashtun. This makes me think you have motorised ball valves that are opening & closing based on certain events e.g. strike temp reached, mashin water volume transferred, mash completed etc.

Shanna

I should have been a bit more precise. Eventually yes with the motorised valve pumping, using the brewpi, but for now I'm using the timer function on the ardbir.

Here's the process: The night before, I'll fill the hlt, crush the grain and add the water treatment plus grain into the mash tun. Then connect all the pumps ready to transfer the mash in water and also setup to run in herms mode.
I'm the morning the ardbir will start to heat the water and beep when it's ready, then holding it as mash in temp. At this point I go up, turn on the pump and then connect the mash tun out to the herms pump. Give it a quick stir and then go off and have breakfast while it runs through my mash program. When it's finished mash out, then batch spare and start into the boil.
If it all works it's technically the same time as a normal batch, but I only need to spend 3 hours with it, basically babysitting the boil while cleaning up after the mash tun, then the usual boil procedure. If I got my breasts down to that time, it would make brewing a hell of a lot more pleasant!

Does it wash socks!
I'm thinking out loud her about grain sitting over night in water and then running the full thermal cycle up to Mash temp?
I know it works and it sounds soon easy!

@ski no I set the hlt to the factor in the heat loss so say 70 if I remember correctly beersmith tells me to hit 66.
I'm usually a degree or half under depending on ambient and grain temp and then I get the herms going to control to my a. rententive 0.1C within about 5 mins it's locked in

Quote from: molc on April 10, 2016, 10:14:31 AM

Quote from: Shanna on April 10, 2016, 09:32:10 AM

Quote from: molc on April 09, 2016, 05:21:10 PM
I'm going to be doing this next brew as I'm planning on setting it all up the night before and using the timer function on the hlt :) If it works it means I wouldn't need to touch the brew until mash out, which would be ace!

Intrigued are you automatically timing the heating of the water & automatically pumping the water in to the mashtun. This makes me think you have motorised ball valves that are opening & closing based on certain events e.g. strike temp reached, mashin water volume transferred, mash completed etc.

Shanna

I should have been a bit more precise. Eventually yes with the motorised valve pumping, using the brewpi, but for now I'm using the timer function on the ardbir.

Here's the process: The night before, I'll fill the hlt, crush the grain and add the water treatment plus grain into the mash tun. Then connect all the pumps ready to transfer the mash in water and also setup to run in herms mode.
I'm the morning the ardbir will start to heat the water and beep when it's ready, then holding it as mash in temp. At this point I go up, turn on the pump and then connect the mash tun out to the herms pump. Give it a quick stir and then go off and have breakfast while it runs through my mash program. When it's finished mash out, then batch spare and start into the boil.
If it all works it's technically the same time as a normal batch, but I only need to spend 3 hours with it, basically babysitting the boil while cleaning up after the mash tun, then the usual boil procedure. If I got my breasts down to that time, it would make brewing a hell of a lot more pleasant!

Major saver there is having your strike water for mashing in preheated but you still have to switch from mashing to herms recirculating manually. I would not trust the herms to run unchecked for prolonged periods. The nature of compression seals gives me visions of leaks, burn out etc. On occasion I preheat the water but I have found the herms has made things easier but slower if you know what I mean. Still working out the optimal way to get the pic/herms used with the recirculating. My current solid state thermometer used by the herms is flaky & gives inconsistent temps. I am going to have to replace it once I receive my replacement. CH description for underletting sounds straight forward. I have a bottom drain & will try this.

I have had problems with getting the pump running smoothly with the herms due to the strong draw of the chugger. I added in a ss colander into my mashtun to increase the amount of liquid available to draw off the mash without having to worry about the pump being too strong. The colander supports the grain & gives some dead space. I also added in the brewing bag that has been a revelation in terms of cleanup. I wonder with the underletting would I have enough liquid in contact with the grain with the colander in place or would I end up with dry grain. I might try & squash the colander down to compromise on the dead space that it introduces. Ideally would like to use the underletting & herms without having to use the colander but I having had two initial stuck mashes (read failed brewdays) while breaking in the herms I don't want to start having the came problems again as they were ball breaking.

Shanna

Quote from: CH on April 10, 2016, 12:46:03 PM
Does it wash socks!
I'm thinking out loud her about grain sitting over night in water and then running the full thermal cycle up to Mash temp?
I know it works and it sounds soon easy!

@ski no I set the hlt to the factor in the heat loss so say 70 if I remember correctly beersmith tells me to hit 66.
I'm usually a degree or half under depending on ambient and grain temp and then I get the herms going to control to my a. rententive 0.1C within about 5 mins it's locked in

Sounds like you nailed it CH. You also save time on not having to fill water & crush grain on brewday as that can be done the night before. Mixing water/grain would also give you time saving but I personally found it slower to get up to mash temperature using this approach as my herms boiler has a lower wattage than my hlt. I just did a Weiss bier like this to calibrate my PID after upgrading my herms heating coil from 1.5kw to 2.7kw. I would also not trust my rig to recirculate without serious manual intervention.

Cheers guys for the tips by the way. Beginning to feel like the brewing equivalent of a magpie :)

Shanna

Sorry Shanna my crushing and boiling all done morning of
30-40 mins with lids on hlt to get 50 litres up to temp temp and I'm weighing water adds grain hops and getting whirlfloc during that
It's molc I'm envious of having said that I'm usually pottering setting up mt boiler etc as mines of no fixed abode.

"No fixed abode"  :D
My rig is also a wanderer, in need of a permanent home. Usually to be found lurking around the back door on brew days before being moved on by the TidyTown Police.
CH: Thanks for the clarification. I'll definitely try this next brew. I usually try to get everything ready the night before, so I just have to heat water next morning. This would help to speed up starting the mash.

Well the compression fittings are in the elements as well, so I'd be more worried about those leaking overnight with almost 40L in the HLT. The camlocks have never spilled a drop for me.

You mention the flow rate on your pumps being an issue. I have valves in my outlets and I only open them halfway for the herms, so the false bottom can keep up. A chugger at full flow rate just sucks it too fast to keep up for me.

Switching from mash in to herms is one connection for me, swapping the MT out to the second pump input, which will already be connected to the herms coil. Stirring the mash is more work than that :)

What we need is to have a brewday somewhere and show people these things in action! Might record my next brewday steps or something to show how it goes...

Yeah go on we have all done it

Quote from: CH on April 10, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
Sorry Shanna my crushing and boiling all done morning of
30-40 mins with lids on hlt to get 50 litres up to temp temp and I'm weighing water adds grain hops and getting whirlfloc during that
It's molc I'm envious of having said that I'm usually pottering setting up mt boiler etc as mines of no fixed abode.

Time unfortunately is a precious commodity for me so I have to crush grains, fill water and weigh out hops in to hop bags (no more since i got the hop spider) so I try and save time any where I can get it :) I note you fill your hlt and heat it all in one go, I do the same. Rossa mentioned to me one evening at a SD meeting that I should consider changing to heat just the mash water to reduce the time taken as less water will boil quicker. Honestly I never thought of it and at the time & it was such an obvious easy way to shave time off the brewday. It must have appeared as if I was simple :). I had gotten used to doing things in a particular was and tended to stick to it to minimize the tendency to make mistakes.

The idea being that the additional sparge water could be filled & heated while the mash is on. I tried it once but never really repeated it. On that one occasion I forgot to add the camden tablets to the original mash water as normally I add them to the full brewing amount. I ended up with a phenolic beer (american amber that Bubbles & Shiny pinged). Reviewing my brewing setup with others they reckoned it was my impatience in pitching the yeast on 25C wort. At the time I was also using an LCD strip on the side of the fermenter so I can't be sure how accurate it was. I subsequently added a thermowell and also a 2nd immersion coil for chilling so I have not had a repeat. I also invested in a more reliable thermometer & confirmed that the temps in the thermowell are with .1C of the temp from the liquid direct in the fermented.

I still think that the lack of camden tablets were a contributing factor as the water around my area at the time was rank with the aroma of chlorine. Going to try the underletting and also give the split mash water approach to reduce the time taken to heat the mash water. I would assume if one is using camden tablets to treat the water that it should include both the mash water and sparge water.

Shanna

Quote from: molc on April 10, 2016, 02:44:41 PM
Well the compression fittings are in the elements as well, so I'd be more worried about those leaking overnight with almost 40L in the HLT. The camlocks have never spilled a drop for me.

You mention the flow rate on your pumps being an issue. I have valves in my outlets and I only open them halfway for the herms, so the false bottom can keep up. A chugger at full flow rate just sucks it too fast to keep up for me.

Switching from mash in to herms is one connection for me, swapping the MT out to the second pump input, which will already be connected to the herms coil. Stirring the mash is more work than that :)

What we need is to have a brewday somewhere and show people these things in action! Might record my next brewday steps or something to show how it goes...

about
Yeah the camlocks are great, absolutely delighted with them since I switched over from those plastics connection fittings. I know what you mean about the elements leaking I lost an American Amber over XMas when the collar on the heating element worked it way loose. I was sickened as 5+ hours of work literally drained on to the floor. I await with interest (and pictures) how your switch over to ss locking nut and nipple goes :). It should ensure that this kind of leak does not happen. I have valves in my outlets also and was using them at about 1/3 initially on the output of the mashtun. What I observed was that the initial flow would be slow and steady but after 5 or 6 minutes the mash outflow would eventually be drawing quicker that the liquid could flow through the mash to the false bottom. Only when I added them ss colander did it allow the liquid to percolate through the mash and it also allowed there to be enough volume in the bottom of the mash tun to prevent the mash running dry.

A shared brew day sounds like a great idea. I had a few of these in the past who were great company, provided an extra set of hands (always welcome) but also were constructively critical and helped me out by constantly questioning my approach. i used to attend the brewdays in tog in the past for this reason. I would be willing to host one in the future or attend one hosted by others but would need a bit of notice so that its factored in to the schedule :)

Shanna

I was doing the split water thing but that's how I burned out my element, as I drained and forgot to turn it off. Going to try just in the hlt next time as I need less moving parts :)

Quote from: Shanna on April 10, 2016, 03:29:02 PM

A shared brew day sounds like a great idea. I had a few of these in the past who were great company, provided an extra set of hands (always welcome) but also were constructively critical and helped me out by constantly questioning my approach. i used to attend the brewdays in tog in the past for this reason. I would be willing to host one in the future or attend one hosted by others but would need a bit of notice so that its factored in to the schedule :)

Shanna

Aye ditto. I have plenty of space for it as well so always up for it. Sounds like the perfect excuse for a BBQ :) wonder can you get 40L brewed in the keggles. That way everyone even gets a batch into a corny to bring home... :)

I underlet with quite a few of our recipes. Helps give an even temp and reduces HSA vrs splashing from the top.
e.g
Lager Process:
Add first infusion volume @54℃, add malt, temp 50℃ for 30mins.
Hook hlt to mt outlet, slowly pump desired vol of liquor @91℃ to give desired second infusion temp.

Mashing in at 50 also completely eliminates any chance of dough balls

Yep I do step mashing for pilsners or helles think one of my recipes starts at 34! That's using floor malted stuff just to convince myself I'm not missing out anything if it's not 100% modified!

This is a good idea. Basically have the correct volume of water sitting in the HTL overnight and have a timer to turn on the element (run through a thermostat or STC).
Might save about an hour.
Im definitely going to try the underletting idea next brew.

Post how you get on

Tried that underletting today.
It did not turn out well for me!

So I underlet the water into the mash tun.
I was doing a medium thickness mash.
I had to stir it in a bit to get rid of the dough balls.
Grand let the mash sit for an hour.

When I went to lauter I got a stuck sparge.
Blowing through the outlet didn't do it.
In the end I had to take apart the manifold (after pouring the mash into another container!)
Got it working eventually.

It's the first time I had a stuck sparge that bad.
Maybe it was something else that caused that but for me I think my experimenting with underletting is over!

I've been under letting for the last few years and never had any problems. Not one stuck mash and only the odd dough ball that is easily spotted. Did you change your mill getting or have a recipe with high amounts of rye or wheat?

Underletting was not your problem there, as Nigel says crush or Rye

I was using a simple bill of Mild malt (never used that before) and a tiny % of acid malt (again never used that before).
I dont have a mill at the moment.
I'm getting my grains crushed from HBC when i buy them.
That could be the issue.

I've seen their crusher it's an expensive piece of kit for commercial breweries and not sure that's your issue tbh.
What water to grain ratio did you use or what was grain weight and how much water did you add?
Under letting doesn't cause stuck sparges, you still need to give it a good stir after filling from the bottom as well though

Yea I gave it a good stir after I filled it.
I used a medium thickness from beersmith so for 4kg of grain I had 13.5ltrs for the mash.