National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Motorbikeman on June 19, 2016, 04:17:43 PM

Title: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 19, 2016, 04:17:43 PM
on the left is none chilled beer I brewed a few weeks ago and bottle primed. 

on the right is the same beer only I put it in the fridge yesterday.   

WHy has the cold made it cloudy and not as tasty. 

(https://s25.postimg.org/5n2b3pvkf/P1020439.jpg)
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: nigel_c on June 19, 2016, 04:37:28 PM
Chill haze. Copy & paste definition.

It is caused by proteins left over from those taken out by the cold break. The proteins responsible for chill haze need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: molc on June 19, 2016, 04:38:37 PM
Chill haze - it's formed from proteins in the brew. You can try to drop your hot and cold break to help, as well as use gelatin or other finings when packaging.

Here's a link with some more: http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/how-to-fix-and-prevent-chill-haze.html
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: nigel_c on June 19, 2016, 04:52:45 PM
If possible a protein rest at about 55c for 15 mins of your mash helps.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Leann ull on June 19, 2016, 08:41:59 PM
Getting your boiled wort as quickly as possible to pitch temp will also help what are you doing at the moment?
Time is also a big factor!
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 20, 2016, 06:53:45 PM
I usually get it down to pitching in under an hour  with an immersion chiller.    Whirlfloc added to the boil as well.   

  I dont want this happening to my usa IPA brew I already brewed as its going into the competition ..

WOuld lagering it  for a week stop it?
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: molc on June 20, 2016, 07:12:50 PM
If you have it in a keg, you could add gelatin and keep it cool to precipitate the proteins
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: beerfly on June 20, 2016, 08:35:28 PM
Don't have a fridge so. Right looks like my summer beers left like my winter beers. Letting it sit a week or two <10° does make that much a difference.

Edit: gelatin and isenglass only really work if you can get it cold.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 20, 2016, 09:21:49 PM
I have two fermenter fridges.     :) 

The brew I dont want it happening with is one in primary now.     WOuld crashing it on week 3 do the job on it? 
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Pheeel on June 20, 2016, 09:45:51 PM
If its for a comp you should gelatin it...
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 20, 2016, 10:03:11 PM
How should I add the gelatin?  I dont keg.   
I dont really want to rack it either due to the risks of transfer.  Can it be done in primary after fermentation?
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: BrewDorg on June 20, 2016, 10:12:29 PM
Quote from: Motorbikeman on June 20, 2016, 10:03:11 PM
How should I add the gelatin?  I dont keg.   
I dont really want to rack it either due to the risks of transfer.  Can it be done in primary after fermentation?

Straight to primary. You'll benefit massively from a cold crash first. Results of gelatin are pretty limited otherwise.

After fermentation is complete and you're close to bottling day, cool the beer to as close to 1-2ºC as possible. After 2-3 days, take 1 tsp of gelatin and put it in a cup of water. Heat this in the microwave for 10-12 seconds at a times until it reaches 60ºC. Stir the gelatin every time you check the temp. When it's nicely dissolved, lob it into your cold crashed fermenter and leave it for 2-3 days. Then continue to bottle as usual.

I've used this method for almost all brews with great results.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 21, 2016, 01:03:13 PM
Perfect.  JUst the info I am after. 

Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Qs on June 21, 2016, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: BrewDorg on June 20, 2016, 10:12:29 PM
You'll benefit massively from a cold crash first. Results of gelatin are pretty limited otherwise.

Took me a while to figure that one out. Had read to add it and then crash when I first started using gelatin.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: nigel_c on June 21, 2016, 06:53:52 PM
Just another thing to watch when cold crashing. Make sure you flush keg with co2 first if transferring from cold crashed fermenter. Cold beer will be more likely to pick oxygen up oxidise a lot quicker then room temp beer.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Will_D on June 21, 2016, 08:48:50 PM
Quote from: nigel_c on June 21, 2016, 06:53:52 PM
Cold beer will be more likely to pick oxygen up oxidise a lot quicker then room temp beer.
Yes its all thanks to a Mr Boyle [Irish] and his gas laws!

Still if it wasn't for the greats of Science where would we be?

Still bodging around with bakers yeast and a slice of toast!

Pasteur, Boyle, Faraday, Newton, Gay Lussac[google him], Bool, Laplace, Fourier, Will_D, Avagadro,  the list is endless
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: johnrm on June 21, 2016, 10:18:29 PM
If using Gelatin, make sure you tell your vegan buddies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: BrewDorg on June 21, 2016, 10:22:47 PM
Quote from: johnrm on June 21, 2016, 10:18:29 PM
If using Gelatin, make sure you tell your vegan buddies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

This x 1000. My sister nearly shot me. She had heard of Guinness using isinglass to fine, so had the awareness to ask if mine had something similar at least.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 21, 2016, 10:57:23 PM
If I use cold crashing and gelatin, Is my beer going to bottle prime ok? 
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: BrewDorg on June 21, 2016, 11:05:47 PM
Quote from: Motorbikeman on June 21, 2016, 10:57:23 PM
If I use cold crashing and gelatin, Is my beer going to bottle prime ok?

Yes it will prime no problem at all. There's lots of noise on other forums that state otherwise but it's nonsense. Just make sure your priming solution is mixed well when bottling.
Title: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Leann ull on June 22, 2016, 07:00:20 AM
Careful now as by crash cooling and using gelatin you drop a significant amount of yeast that is in suspension as well.
You will get there in the end but your yeast count will be a lot less than if you went straight to bottle conditioned and subsequently crash chilled.
Have a go at 2 or 3 techniques and use what works best.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: molc on June 22, 2016, 08:31:51 AM
It slows conditioning slightly, but there's still plenty of yeast in there. In this weather, the bottles should still be carbonated in 3 weeks.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: BrewDorg on June 22, 2016, 10:21:18 AM
Even when I use gelatin, there's still always a layer of yeast settled at the bottom of my bottles. This suggests there's plenty there to do the job and the beer still comes out totally clear (if you don't disturb it when pouring). I'd imagine gelatin with kegs will always produce a lovely clear glass with no yeast sediment?
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 22, 2016, 05:15:05 PM
Could you advise  on a schedule I should  use if dry hopping as well. 

  I don't want to rack to secondary.  I want to crash and use gelatin.  I want to bottle prime and be ready for collection for this competition.

So I can get some proper critique on my beer.  http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,15792.0.html

Its been fermenting for 4 days now and is blowing foam into the blow off glass.   Smells out of the brew shed are fantastic.   
Title: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Leann ull on June 22, 2016, 07:55:34 PM
Most of oils migrate into beer in 48-72 hours, more that 7 days and you run the risk of grassiness, I do five once active fermentation has ceased. Any sooner and the co2 blows the aroma out your chimney.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Leann ull on June 23, 2016, 10:06:38 PM
Forgot to ask what yeast were you using?
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 23, 2016, 11:39:33 PM
2 packs of us-05 hydrated ..
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: molc on June 24, 2016, 08:37:19 AM
That competition is ages away so you have plenty of time :) schedule I'd use is dry hop for 4 days once the kreustan is just fallen, then crash to 11C, add gelatin, crash to 1-2c over the next 48 hours and bottle.
Title: Re: Question with regards cloudy beer
Post by: Motorbikeman on July 02, 2016, 10:10:01 AM
Thanks for the tips lads.   This is my latest out of the primary fermenter .  Cold crashed and gelatin added.  Wow.    This bit was from the bottom of the bottling bucket.   The stuff that went into the bottles was brighter. 
(https://s25.postimg.org/marz0pukv/P1020452.jpg)