National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Motorbikeman on June 28, 2016, 07:18:13 PM

Title: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 28, 2016, 07:18:13 PM
Done a pilsner and finished it right on target gravity of 1.012 but its very sweet. 

Im guessing I mashed to high at 69.

Is there anyway to fix it?

     I was thinking of boiling up all the old hops I have in the freezer in 500ml water and adding them to bitter it a bit.  Would this work?


Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: irish_goat on June 28, 2016, 07:38:33 PM
Since it's a lager could you stick it in a corny and blend it with another batch?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 28, 2016, 07:57:27 PM
I don't keg unfortunately

I have about 70g of hallertau garden hops in a  boiling pot at the moment  . 

I might try an experiment ..
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on June 28, 2016, 08:42:56 PM
Close your eyes and pretend it's a Kolsch.

What are you using to measure mash temp?

Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 28, 2016, 08:53:46 PM
stc 1000

After getting a few volunteers, and boiling up a liter  hop tea, 

I did some blind taste tests   adding 2.5ml  of tea to 50ml of fermented beer. 


I think I fixed it  or at least balanced it out a bit.     

Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Qs on June 29, 2016, 07:19:51 PM
If its hit the target gravity then its not the mash temp thats made it sweet. Whats you grain bill and how many IBUs is it? I'd try to just add more bitterness somehow to balance it.

EDIT: Oh I see you did exactly that, nevermind.   :D
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 29, 2016, 10:20:03 PM
You know,  I have had a few batches of sweet beer now.  Im not a fan.    Im at the stage where im trying to iron out crap like this and trying different things.   I always seem to be spot on with my gravity numbers the whole way through brew day.  Yet the sweetness it still there. 

Seems to happen more with lager.     



The hops I am getting from the homebrewcompany are always of last years crop or the year before.      They are well sealed as you know,  but maybe im not hitting the IBU because of the age of them..   Would there be any truth in this thought?   
   
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Ohnidog on June 30, 2016, 02:53:56 PM
Are you sure its not diacetyl? The fact that its happening to you more with lagers would suggest that it might be. Is it sweet and reminiscent of butterscotch?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on June 30, 2016, 03:34:56 PM
+1 how are you fermenting, please advise schedule and temps?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 30, 2016, 04:02:45 PM
Im fermenting for 10c days at 12c
then ramped up to 20c for 4-5 days,
then lagered at -1c for 2+ weeks.

Bottle primed for 2 weeks and stored in the fridge.

Sweet coming out of the fermenter though. 
Title: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on June 30, 2016, 04:21:54 PM
10 days primary is a bit short for lager which in always a slow ferment, what Gravity is it then or did you measure it?
Let's also look at your yeast?
2 packs of dry or min 2.5 or preferably a 3l liquid starter.
They are notoriously slow and can take 24-48hrs to get going.
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on June 30, 2016, 06:54:49 PM
Before I ramped it up ,  I was 1.018 which was nearly done. 

And the week at 20c finished it off.     


i think maybe a cooler mash and slower ferment the next time.  But im not quite sure whats going on as I do land on the correct gravity with beer smith.    With a hydrometer and refractometer.

WOuld 69 be on the high side for a lager.
Title: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on June 30, 2016, 09:27:13 PM
You need to get it to finish fermenting at lager temps I would give the next one 3 weeks and measure at that stage, the diacetyl rest is only a precautionary rest and a lot don't bother, it's not there to finish fermentation.
You need to be mashing 64-65 max temp.
Talk more about your yeast?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Dr Jacoby on July 01, 2016, 10:43:17 AM
Quote from: CH on June 30, 2016, 09:27:13 PMTalk more about your yeast?

It's good to talk.
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: mr hoppy on July 01, 2016, 07:29:23 PM
Quote from: CH on June 30, 2016, 09:27:13 PM
You need to get it to finish fermenting at lager temps I would give the next one 3 weeks and measure at that stage, the diacetyl rest is only a precautionary rest and a lot don't bother, it's not there to finish fermentation.

Trying to expand my knowledge here but I thought I'd seen it suggested that you should really start (slowly) ramping to a D-rest once you're at high krausen?

Quote from: CH on June 30, 2016, 09:27:13 PM
You need to be mashing 64-65 max temp.

If you're doing a single infusion, right? I thought a protein rest was supposed to be a good idea (promote clarity etc.) for pilsener malt?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on July 01, 2016, 11:27:17 PM
Many ways to ferment lager never heard of that one, 9-13 mines always 10 and up to 12 to finish.
On the protein rest it's historical and for undermodified malts,even floor malted Weyermans doesn't need it, out of habit rather than any real need, I do it along with the diacetyl rest, well tbh I don't the Brewpi or flashed stc does on fermentation
I don't know how you find high krausen on lagers mine have only ever been a long slow steady burn, maybe if I did them at high temps!!
It's a bitch if a product to brew but well worth it and appreciated especially by mates if you have the patience to ferment it.
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on July 02, 2016, 10:21:37 AM
Would you bother with dried yeast? 

Yeast I used was washed 34/70.  way over pitched.    If you remember from another thread ,  I pitched at 12 and accidentally crashed the beer to 0c overnight . 

When it heated up, it started chugging away ..       

This all could be my taste buds.   Maybe I don't like medium bodied beer.   

I know that I do like the cheap Czech pilsener I buy in the supermarket.   And that is quite dry, yet beer smith has it at finishing at 1.012. 
WHich I dont think is in the range of dry beer.   
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Will_D on July 02, 2016, 10:33:22 AM
Back to basics:

Qn: Why is the beer sweet?

Ans1: The yeast has stopped working and therefore the beer is not fully attenuated. There are still fermentable sugars present. Remedy: Use a "stronger" yeast to try to ferment out the sugars. Like a champagne yeast or other speciality yeast.

Ans2: The yeast is probably still active, there are no unfermentable sugars left. What is left are longer chain sugars that our yeast cannot metabolise to Ethanol. Remedy: Haven't got a simple answer to this I am afraid. Dilution and add more hops maybe?

Any other suggestions?

I imagine some of the other yeasts/bacteria as used in sours can break these longer chains down?
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on July 02, 2016, 11:18:22 AM
I don't recommend repitching lager yeasts they are too sensitive about picking anything there is along the way.
I don't repitch or culture in any case too many problems associated with it even with folks who know what they are doing.
I did it a few times back with my fav Irish Ale Yeast, but he effort of washing was just too much hassle and then working out cell count in a graduated tube😱
I think th process is a bit like rolling your own, you either love it or you don't
Apologies if you have do so already can you post your recipe?
Here's a miller clone I did on request and guess what it tastes like miller!☺️
Standard lager yeast would probaly have been better for my tastes, it was thin like cervesa, but that's what the person wanted.
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on July 02, 2016, 04:05:02 PM
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 21.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 4.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
5.00 kg               Pilsner (2 Row) UK (2.5 EBC)             Grain         1        100.0 %       
60.00 g               Hallertauer [3.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min     Hop           2        17.8 IBUs     
60.00 g               Saaz [3.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min            Hop           3        19.0 IBUs     
1.22 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        Fining        4        -             
20.00 g               Saaz [3.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min            Hop           5        2.3 IBUs     
20.00 g               Saaz [3.25 %] - Boil 0.0 min             Hop           6        0.0 IBUs     
SLurry               Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70)  Yeast         7        -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.00 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time             
Mash In           Add 14.74 l of water at 76.9 C          68.9 C        45 min                 

Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on July 02, 2016, 05:35:49 PM
ok mash temp too high for lager, even for ales thats pushing it and i'd be afraid you'd be closer to 70 than 68, aim for 64 and 75 min mash, do an iodine test to confirm full conversion, just need to confirm it on your first one after that its plain sailing other than that it looks good.
I assume you are at 75 for your sparge?
2 packets for a standard batch otherwise you'll stress the yeast and that drags across if you use it to repitch. 
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Motorbikeman on July 02, 2016, 08:47:33 PM
Thanks.   Just bottled an US ale at 64c mash and it came out perfect to my taste.   

Another lesson learned.   8)     

My lager has only been in a pressure barrel for 2 days now  and it does taste very similar to the cheapo Praga Pilsner I have in my hand. Same colour,  Saaz flavour,  still a bit sweeter but maybe carbonation and time will iron it out a bit.  Still very drinkable. 

   
Title: Re: Can sweet beer be fixed while still in the fermenter?
Post by: Leann ull on July 02, 2016, 10:01:18 PM
Before I had herms it was lucky dip whether I truly hit my mash temp and always had a boiling kettle or bucket of ice to hand for the first few, then after a while you get your eye in and away you go, and besides 5 degrees isn't a huge amount of leeway but can make a hell of a difference in what you brew.
Most importantly enjoy what you are doing.