I have a new shiny SS FV i need to passivate,however i have no Starsan to hand and largest i can get citric acid in locally is 100gr tubs.What else can i use to do the job that i might be able to get locally ? For instance i can get kettle descaler which is Formic Acid and i am curious would that do the job safely,also may be possible to get dairy bulk tank descaler locally which i believe is a mix of nitric and phosphoric acid. I would like to get it done over the next few days if possible as i can't get Starsan anyway until next week ;D
I am asking because i am impatient for one,secondly the FV is 50lt so i am assuming i would need a shit ton of Starsan to do the job which could be expensive. Alternatives that could be sourced locally is what i am asking for,tia. ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid
Second question is after a good hot oxclean bath and being rinsed and dried will SS no naturally passivate by itself anyway ? ;D
Why do you want to passivate it? have you been cutting it or scrubbing it with brillo pads or something?
Give it a good clean and dry and it'll passivate itself from exposure to air.
I have been wondering about this too as I bought two fermenters in the group buy. One thing though, I think I read somewhere that Oxy shouldn't be used with Stainless as it strips the protective coating or something, I stand to be corrected though.
http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/appendix-b/passivating-stainless-steel
Quote from: Damofto on July 08, 2016, 08:51:51 AM
I have been wondering about this too as I bought two fermenters in the group buy. One thing though, I think I read somewhere that Oxy shouldn't be used with Stainless as it strips the protective coating or something, I stand to be corrected though.
I didn't hear that tbh,however when a vessel comes straight from factory i see no harm in giving it a good hot oxyclean bath to get rid of all the gunk from manufacturing. ;D
CH's link is interesting, as it suggests you need to give the welds a good cleaning, as they aren't passified.
Quote from: molc on July 08, 2016, 03:04:36 PM
CH's link is interesting, as it suggests you need to give the welds a good cleaning, as they aren't passified.
I would have to agree with that,i see welds as the weak points as regards rust etc. :D
That said for a 50lt FV how much Starsan would you need to use to passivate it if you fill to the brim ? From what i have seen when using citric acid at least a 5-10% w/v is used which would indicate anywhere from 2.5-5kg Citirc Acid for 50lt :o Going off that it strikes me you would need a helluva lot of Starsan to do the same job ? ???
I think we need some solid practical indication as to how best to approach this given what we can source here in Eire,half the stuff the get in USA we can't get here. ;D
Well, the point the article is making is that you need to clean that off first, as it can't be passified. Once it's gone, the stainless will just passify with oxygen exposure.
Quote from: molc on July 08, 2016, 03:12:43 PM
Well, the point the article is making is that you need to clean that off first, as it can't be passified. Once it's gone, the stainless will just passify with oxygen exposure.
I did all that,hot water and oxyclean for two hours,scrubbed inside and out with one of them non metallic scrubbing pads for doing dishes,rinsed and dried with a towel and left open to air. ;D
Sorry guys i may be obsessing about this but it's my first shiny :-[
Quote from: LordEoin on July 08, 2016, 08:02:18 AM
Why do you want to passivate it? have you been cutting it or scrubbing it with brillo pads or something?
Give it a good clean and dry and it'll passivate itself from exposure to air.
Because it is fresh from factory and just post manufacturing process,the general consensus seems to be that you need to do it at least once ? ;D
I just ordered some Barkeeper's Friend from link below,i went with this option because my keg setup could also do with a good clean.Hopefully this will be here end of next week,should be handy to have around anyway. ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172164153963?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 06:24:00 PM
I just ordered some Barkeeper's Friend from link below,i went with this option because my keg setup could also do with a good clean.Hopefully this will be here end of next week,should be handy to have around anyway. ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172164153963?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Do not use that on the inside of any vessel....it will taint everything for a long time...
Quote from: Oh Crap on July 08, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 06:24:00 PM
I just ordered some Barkeeper's Friend from link below,i went with this option because my keg setup could also do with a good clean.Hopefully this will be here end of next week,should be handy to have around anyway. ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172164153963?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Do not use that on the inside of any vessel....it will taint everything for a long time...
I would have thought that too but yet all the advice from USA brewers so far has been to use it on the inside and wash well after. I will make use of it anyway on outside cleanup of my kegs. ???
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Oh Crap on July 08, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 06:24:00 PM
I just ordered some Barkeeper's Friend from link below,i went with this option because my keg setup could also do with a good clean.Hopefully this will be here end of next week,should be handy to have around anyway. ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172164153963?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Do not use that on the inside of any vessel....it will taint everything for a long time...
I would have thought that too but yet all the advice from USA brewers so far has been to use it on the inside and wash well after. I will make use of it anyway on outside cleanup of my kegs. ???
It'll shine up the outside nicely....but trust me on the inside...an expensive lesson
Quote from: Oh Crap on July 08, 2016, 10:53:20 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Oh Crap on July 08, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 06:24:00 PM
I just ordered some Barkeeper's Friend from link below,i went with this option because my keg setup could also do with a good clean.Hopefully this will be here end of next week,should be handy to have around anyway. ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172164153963?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Do not use that on the inside of any vessel....it will taint everything for a long time...
I would have thought that too but yet all the advice from USA brewers so far has been to use it on the inside and wash well after. I will make use of it anyway on outside cleanup of my kegs. ???
It'll shine up the outside nicely....but trust me on the inside...an expensive lesson
Farrrk,oh well like you say it will do the outside of me kegs anyway.Now to try to work out how much starsan i need for this monster. ???
Not to keep flogging this horse but i found a pdf on passivating SS Fvs for those of you interested,i know there are a few people out there like me with new shinys. ;D
According to this pdf the Starsan Conc. for adequate passivation is 1oz/Gal(3.8lt),this equates to 7.8ml Starsan/Litre water,a temperature of 21c-27c and let it stand for 20mins ;D
Thanks for that, about time I started using Starsan anyway.
Quote from: Damofto on July 08, 2016, 11:18:58 PM
Thanks for that, about time I started using Starsan anyway.
No worries,though in my case it means i need 350ml Starsan for this 50lt Fv :o
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: Damofto on July 08, 2016, 11:18:58 PM
Thanks for that, about time I started using Starsan anyway.
No worries,though in my case it means i need 350ml Starsan for this 50lt Fv :o
Ok, I havent read all the links posted and I don't use starsan and am assuming that the problem is that it's expensive so please excuse me if this is a stupid suggestion. From what I gather you need to have the inner surface of the fv in contact with either an acid or starsan or whatever for a given time to create the oxide layer. Why does that mean having to fill the full volume of the fv? Why not make up a few litres of whichever solution you can get cheapest and roll the fv to cover the inner surfaces? I do the same with plastic fv's when sanitising. 1L of sanitiser instead of the 5L the instructions say to make up, and a good twist and shake of the fv to make sure it coats all the inner surfaces. you will have to be a bit more gentle with brand new shiny I know but 2 or 3L of star san is all you'll need to make up.
Quote from: Drum on July 09, 2016, 12:23:19 AM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: Damofto on July 08, 2016, 11:18:58 PM
Thanks for that, about time I started using Starsan anyway.
No worries,though in my case it means i need 350ml Starsan for this 50lt Fv :o
Ok, I havent read all the links posted and I don't use starsan and am assuming that the problem is that it's expensive so please excuse me if this is a stupid suggestion. From what I gather you need to have the inner surface of the fv in contact with either an acid or starsan or whatever for a given time to create the oxide layer. Why does that mean having to fill the full volume of the fv? Why not make up a few litres of whichever solution you can get cheapest and roll the fv to cover the inner surfaces? I do the same with plastic fv's when sanitising. 1L of sanitiser instead of the 5L the instructions say to make up, and a good twist and shake of the fv to make sure it coats all the inner surfaces. you will have to be a bit more gentle with brand new shiny I know but 2 or 3L of star san is all you'll need to make up.
I never thought of that tbh,would be great if that was sufficient,maybe someone else can speak to whether doing it like this is sufficient. ;D
That's how I clean my Carboys
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 12, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
As it turns out i did have to use a small amount of SS cleaner(not BKF) on the inside as the seams were rusted the entire length of the inside. Once i got rid of that rust i washed it out with hot oxclean and sponge,rinsed it well,and then dumped in two litres of double strength Starsan.I shook it well to coat the inside and let it sit for 30mins,repeated that process,then dumped the starsan into the sink and put the lid into that.Dried out the inside of the FV with a towel and left it out back in the air for the day to passivate. ;D
Exactly what I did. Very important to get rid of the rust. Then oxyclean and starsan to finish for the airdry.
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 16, 2016, 11:14:16 AM
Exactly what I did. Very important to get rid of the rust. Then oxyclean and starsan to finish for the airdry.
Well it's got 40 litres of ESB bubbling away inside it now so fingers crossed. ;D
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 15, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 12, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
As it turns out i did have to use a small amount of SS cleaner(not BKF) on the inside as the seams were rusted the entire length of the inside. Once i got rid of that rust i washed it out with hot oxclean and sponge,rinsed it well,and then dumped in two litres of double strength Starsan.I shook it well to coat the inside and let it sit for 30mins,repeated that process,then dumped the starsan into the sink and put the lid into that.Dried out the inside of the FV with a towel and left it out back in the air for the day to passivate. ;D
What ss cleaner did you use Greg?
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on July 17, 2016, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 15, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 12, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
As it turns out i did have to use a small amount of SS cleaner(not BKF) on the inside as the seams were rusted the entire length of the inside. Once i got rid of that rust i washed it out with hot oxclean and sponge,rinsed it well,and then dumped in two litres of double strength Starsan.I shook it well to coat the inside and let it sit for 30mins,repeated that process,then dumped the starsan into the sink and put the lid into that.Dried out the inside of the FV with a towel and left it out back in the air for the day to passivate. ;D
What ss cleaner did you use Greg?
Shanna
Lidl W5 stainless steel cleaner because i had it to hand(forgot i had it doh) and the BKF had not come in yet. It was only a light rub on the internal central seam running the length of the vertical inside,also inside underneath where the welds on the handles would be needed a rub too.Basically what happened was after washing it initially with oxyclean and towel drying it started to rust in those places. ;D
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 08, 2016, 12:01:07 AM
I have a new shiny SS FV i need to passivate,however i have no Starsan to hand and largest i can get citric acid in locally is 100gr tubs.What else can i use to do the job that i might be able to get locally ? For instance i can get kettle descaler which is Formic Acid and i am curious would that do the job safely,also may be possible to get dairy bulk tank descaler locally which i believe is a mix of nitric and phosphoric acid. I would like to get it done over the next few days if possible as i can't get Starsan anyway until next week ;D
I am asking because i am impatient for one,secondly the FV is 50lt so i am assuming i would need a shit ton of Starsan to do the job which could be expensive. Alternatives that could be sourced locally is what i am asking for,tia. ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid
intresting reading on formic acid, great usefull stuff. Now I know how to get rid of me warts ^-^
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 15, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 12, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
As it turns out i did have to use a small amount of SS cleaner(not BKF) on the inside as the seams were rusted the entire length of the inside. Once i got rid of that rust i washed it out with hot oxclean and sponge,rinsed it well,and then dumped in two litres of double strength Starsan.I shook it well to coat the inside and let it sit for 30mins,repeated that process,then dumped the starsan into the sink and put the lid into that.Dried out the inside of the FV with a towel and left it out back in the air for the day to passivate. ;D
How much starsan went in to that 2 litres?
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on July 21, 2016, 07:43:33 PM
Quote from: Greg2013 on July 15, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: SkiBeagle on July 12, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
https://ssbrewtech.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200206485-CLEANING-CARE-STAINLESS
Enough there to scare the daylights out of you, Greg!
As it turns out i did have to use a small amount of SS cleaner(not BKF) on the inside as the seams were rusted the entire length of the inside. Once i got rid of that rust i washed it out with hot oxclean and sponge,rinsed it well,and then dumped in two litres of double strength Starsan.I shook it well to coat the inside and let it sit for 30mins,repeated that process,then dumped the starsan into the sink and put the lid into that.Dried out the inside of the FV with a towel and left it out back in the air for the day to passivate. ;D
How much starsan went in to that 2 litres?
Shanna
Just over 1oz. ;D