National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => Equipment & Chemicals => Topic started by: rukkus on December 10, 2012, 10:00:37 PM

Title: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: rukkus on December 10, 2012, 10:00:37 PM
I have a fully carbonated stout in a corny and a stout tap all hooked up. The stout tap is already an improvement. I have just ordered one of those keg chargers you can put co2 bulbs into. I'm thinking of purging the headspace in the keg a bit and topping up with N2O (the bulbs used in cream whippers) and using this to dispense. I know its not the same as mixed beer gas but I'm curious if the nitrogen will produce a similar pour to beer gas and the whipper bulbs are fairly cheap for a box and easy to buy.

Has anyone tried this already, if so how did it turn out?
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Cathal O D on December 10, 2012, 10:08:46 PM
I tried that but it didnt seem to work. I think it just fills the head space and forces the carbed beer out.
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: rukkus on December 10, 2012, 10:19:40 PM
What kind of pressure did you use? I here that the pressure needs to be much higher when using nitrogen.
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Spud395 on December 10, 2012, 11:30:33 PM
With nitro stout rather than carbing the beer they nitrogenate it, the reason for using the 70/30 mix to push it is to stop the co2 carbonating the beer as it disolves into solution much easier than nitrogen.

I cant see those little bulbs having any effect on a keg full of carbonated beer, other than pushing it out

Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 11, 2012, 12:43:34 AM
That would be a brilliant gas to have in a pub. I would love to see that. ;D ;D. What's in my mouth ;D ;D
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: newToBrew on December 11, 2012, 09:43:58 AM
so......
QuoteWith nitro stout rather than carbing the beer they nitrogenate it,
IF you were force carbing a keg - could you swop out the co2 for the nitro in the middle of it, then serve with the C02  - would that work ??

QuoteN2O is Nitrous Oxide, aka laughing gas.

following on from the first thought - would this give you a laughing stout ???
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: JimmyM on December 11, 2012, 01:37:44 PM
One of the Cork lads - cant remember whether it was Taf or wallacebiy did this successfully using a king keg.
Had ideas of adding one of the bulb holders to the lid of a corny but havent got round to it.
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: rukkus on December 11, 2012, 08:10:22 PM
I've just popped in 4 bulbs without purging the keg. It is creamer (maybe due to the higher pressure) but i'm not quite getting the same surge yet. Maybe the ratio of N2O to CO2 needs to be higher.

I realise N2O is not the same as mixed beer gas, i would think though as it is the nitrogen that contributes along with the restricter plate that if the correct pressure is applied it should cause a similar result.
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Stitch on December 11, 2012, 08:40:24 PM
The problem with Nitrogen is getting it to dissolve in solution. Guinness does this AFAIK under high pressure in their kegs. It is then served using mixed gas (70/30).

The widget in the can, again AFAIK, is a plastic ball full of pressurised Nitrogen. When the can is opened this ball pops and flies around the can releasing nitrogen quickly. As Nitrogen is heavier than air this will not leave the can but will come out of solution quickly.

Simply pushing the out with nitrogen I don't think will give that creamy head.

I am open to correction on the above :-/

Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: rukkus on December 11, 2012, 09:21:05 PM
I've thrown in a few more bulbs and the pour is getting better and better
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 12:26:47 AM
Lets be perfectly clear:

Guiness is dispensed using a 25% CO2 and 75% N2 mix.
Thats it!! Fact! its no other ratio!!

The gas is sold by BOC under the Suremix brand/logo

Lagers and the rest are dispensed on a 50/50 mix.

Source for the above: BOC pub gases.

For more info on BOC see the Wiki.

Nitrous Oxide aka. Laughing gas, is not what you want in beer. Its allowed as a food grade additive to aerosol wipped cream.

Reason: N20 disolves in lipids (ie. the Fats in cream ) and when you open the can it foams up. Solubility in water (or weak alcohol solutions ie. 5% beer is marginal)

BTW: If anyone offers you the dislexic's version of N2O the its NO2 ( the brown gas, nasty toxic stuff ) then run a mile

[/chemistrylessonoff]

Will
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
QuoteI have a fully carbonated stout in a corny and a stout tap all hooked up. The stout tap is already an improvement. I have just ordered one of those keg chargers you can put co2 bulbs into. I'm thinking of purging the headspace in the keg a bit and topping up with N2O (the bulbs used in cream whippers) and using this to dispense. I know its not the same as mixed beer gas but I'm curious if the nitrogen will produce a similar pour to beer gas and the whipper bulbs are fairly cheap for a box and easy to buy.

Has anyone tried this already, if so how did it turn out?
To recap what the original post asked,he is aware that the gas N2O is used for whipping cream,like all good curious homebrewers, he is asking can this work on producing nitro stout,or are there any alternatives. :)   
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 11:05:18 AM
See the equipment wiki re the BOC rentals. Its really not that expensive to use the real stuff!

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/brew-wiki/

Link thro' to the storage and dispense page!

BTW: Why can't we link to the specific page in the wiki as oppsed to the top level link above.

Will
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Spud395 on December 12, 2012, 11:11:54 AM
The fact of the matter though is even using stout mix you will still have carbonated beer where pub nitro is nitrogenated.

Not saying it's bad, just not the very same
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2012, 11:16:48 AM
Cathalbrua is on the case,and will be writing a wiki about his results,he just does not know this yet. :)
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: newToBrew on December 12, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
Quoteyou will still have carbonated beer where pub nitro is nitrogenated.

yeah - I was thinking @ this :
If you have a beer thats fully Carbed  as in it contains as much Co2 as it can - and then you use a 50/50 mix to serve
(like the pubs) or use the homebrew methods mentioned here

whats the point ? isn't this gas just pushing the beer along? or does the beer soak up some of this gas also ?
I'm presuming that if we have a beer that's say 2.5 vol of C02 (or whatever) it stillhas the capacity to take some more
and
I guess that if it was a 50/50 mix it is soaking up some of the nitro ?
is that right ?
or is it a case that because of the nitro it is at a higher pressure ?

Come on Science Dudes Spell it out for the slow guy !!!!

Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 11:40:10 AM
QuoteSee the equipment wiki re the BOC rentals. Its really not that expensive to use the real stuff!

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/brew-wiki/

Link thro' to the storage and dispense page!

BTW: Why can't we link to the specific page in the wiki as oppsed to the top level link above.

Will

Can you all access this page?

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/wiki/doku.php?id=fermentation_equipment

Will
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 11:46:26 AM
After a bit of googling came up with this. Seems sound in terms of the physics!!

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/39-kegging/1186-nitro-beers-a-low-carb-beers

I think we can ignore the discussion on low-carb  beers!!

Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 11:58:34 AM
And if we can rustle up $64k see here:

http://www.liqui-cel.com/uploads/documents/Non-dispersive%20diffusion%20for%20nitrogenation%20Beer.pdf

Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2012, 01:10:56 PM
On the BYO set up,he suggests putting a carbonation stone on the out pipe of the corney. This pipe goes all the way to the bottom of the corney. What is not made clear is when the beer has being gased up to requirement,the stone is still in the beer and you will be drawing the beer back up through the stone. :-/
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2012, 01:13:39 PM
Interesting comment that nitro beer pours better after it has being filtered from having excess yeast.
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Padraic on December 12, 2012, 01:22:47 PM
QuoteSee the equipment wiki re the BOC rentals. Its really not that expensive to use the real stuff!

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/brew-wiki/

Link thro' to the storage and dispense page!

BTW: Why can't we link to the specific page in the wiki as oppsed to the top level link above.

Will

That link is just to the frame containing the brew wki, under the brew wiki "menu" there is an option to open it in a new window and then you can link!
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Will_D on December 12, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
Quote
QuoteSee the equipment wiki re the BOC rentals. Its really not that expensive to use the real stuff!

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/brew-wiki/

Link thro' to the storage and dispense page!

BTW: Why can't we link to the specific page in the wiki as oppsed to the top level link above.

Will

Can you all access this page?

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/wiki/doku.php?id=fermentation_equipment

Will

Oops, Senior Moment:
Correct link is:

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/wiki/doku.php?id=storage_equipment
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: Spud395 on December 12, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
QuoteInteresting comment that nitro beer pours better after it has being filtered from having excess yeast.
I've been told by a reputable source Guinness don't filter, but they do centrifuge to remove yeast
Title: Re: Using N2O For Stout
Post by: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2012, 07:17:31 PM
Yeah I also was told that guinness do not filter,but use the quick spin process,but how do they hold back the yeast. ::)