As I progress through my homebrewing career(?) I am becoming more interested in water treatments. I use a Camden tablet and use temp control. But I just feel some of my breakfast are lacking something. A friend has told me water treatment should be something to look into next.
So I've had a good old luck at Brew n Water, played around with the water report figures I found on here and on boards.ie (from July 14 South City treatment report) and I have the calculations for my next brew.
I am just wondering where and which items you buy? Can you get gypsum and epsom on a small scale? Do people use CRS as well?
I'm just interested in people's experiences of water treatment and how they approach their brew day.
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Go to your bog standard chemist and ask for Epsom salts,cheap as chips and will last you a lifetime as you use so little. the rest you get from your homebrew shops.
Baking soda in Tesco,s ;)
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 01, 2016, 05:39:58 PM
Baking soda in Tesco,s ;)
SodoumBicarbonate if my early science serves me right?
Is Gypsum the same as CRS?
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Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 01, 2016, 05:39:25 PM
Go to your bog standard chemist and ask for Epsom salts,cheap as chips and will last you a lifetime as you use so little. the rest you get from your homebrew shops.
Nicking your misus's Radox again Dempsey
That radox stuff is great if your brewing a lavender ale.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 01, 2016, 05:39:25 PM
Go to your bog standard chemist and ask for Epsom salts,cheap as chips and will last you a lifetime as you use so little
Never heard the saying "go through you like a dose of salts"? Magnesium generally is a laxative, and people may be susceptible to it even in the small doses used in brewing.
A far safer method of altering your sulphate balance is gypsum aka calcium sulphate. You may also need calcium chloride as well as baking soda (be careful with additions) or brewers chalk to increase hardness.
Acid malt is also available to adjust your mash pH as well as are phosphate buffers ie 5.2 from Star chemicals.
What are the general thoughts on using DLS (dry liquor salts)?
So in layman's terms.
+ Calcium + Sulphate = Gypsum. Available in Chinese/Asian markets
+ Sodium = Baking Soda. Available in grocery shops.
+Mag + Sulphate. Epsom salts. Available in a pharmacy.
What does Chalk do? Also how do people measure pH? Those little strips?
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Here is the breakdown of D.L.S.
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,3637.msg44637.html#msg44637
Thanks Demsey. Very useful.
Do folks use dls or prefer to do the individual salts as Northernnick is asking about? Ie is dls a blunt instrument?
I stopped using it not because I did not like it but instead beersmith works out the individual salts for my recipe and so I stock them.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 02, 2016, 03:00:19 PM
I stopped using it not because I did not like it but instead beersmith works out the individual salts for my recipe and so I stock them.
I'll have to update my beersmith, this sounds perfect. My only gripe with Bru n Water is that you have to edge up your additions by .1g at a time to get it closer to your target.
If Beersmith just tells me add x Y and z ammount automatically that then really really appeals to me and I have no reason not to be ignoring water treatment.
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I find brun Water very good also.
But got some dls and crs with my last order, so trying to figure out the mineral implications if I use it. But have kind of resolved to just adjusting the calcium levels with the dls and leaving it at that. (well- adding latic acid and 50% of total as purified water).
You will need a jewellers weighing scales as the amounts are in the 1.8 grams area :)
Quote from: northernnick on September 01, 2016, 06:38:51 PM
Is Gypsum the same as CRS?
Gypsum is Calcium Sulphate (as found in plaster board! but don't use that!!!)
Easely obtainded from HB shops.
CRS is Carbonate Reducing Solution and is a mix of a couple of food grade acids (phosphoric and maybe Sulphuric but not quite sure)
It is used to remove permanent hardness (carbonates) from water:
Carbonate + acid = CO2 + the acid salt + water
so:
CaCO3 + H2SO4 = CaSO4 + CO2 + H2O
Lime Stone + Sulphuric Acid gives Gypsum, Carbon Dioxide and water
Simpples!
Here is a simple water treatment regime that you can follow using CRS and DLS,
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/wordpress/water-for-brewing/
Breakdown of CRS
250ml CRS is,
198ml water,
39ml hydro,
13ml sulphuric
- giving 65ppm cl+ per 1ml/L & 88ppm so4+
Will watch out Dempseys after your title
OK all of these ppm's and per ml/L are the exact reason I find water treatment to be so intimidating.
I'm gonna try the new and updated beersmith with my next brew if all it does it tell me x ammount of gypsum, etc.
Just out of curiosity, why haven't any homebrew shops thought of doing a kit consisting of the relevant salts? Seems very easy to put together and could be very helpful
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There are commercial products out there already. When you do a brew post and we can walk you through it, it really is idiot proof as this one has been using it for 6 months now.
The shops all stock the needs,
Precipitated chalk, Calcium Carbonate CaCO3,
Magnesium Sulfate,Epsom Salts, (big big tub in chemist)
Calcium Chloride,
Gypsum, Calcium Sulfate,
Baking soda (Tesco),
And get a jeweler weighing scales and your oxo :)
Was thinking this stuff
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/Mash_Stabilizer_Tech_Sheet.pdf
Obviously water reports are a greal start, but in the north at least the most current report is 6 months in the past. What would be the minimum test kits required to get all the required parameters into brewsmith / brunwater etc? I've a ph meter coming in the group buy but would also like to get the necessary salifert kits as well.
Oh goody - other people are asking all my questions !
TDS. a total dissolved solids unit and a salifert hardness kit will help you to narrow down a water profile of your tap water.
Quote from: northernnick on September 03, 2016, 06:16:01 PM
OK all of these ppm's and per ml/L are the exact reason I find water treatment to be so intimidating.
I'm gonna try the new and updated beersmith with my next brew if all it does it tell me x ammount of gypsum, etc.
Just out of curiosity, why haven't any homebrew shops thought of doing a kit consisting of the relevant salts? Seems very easy to put together and could be very helpful
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Vary your grain bill to improve efficiency and get the results you want from your Beer . Vary your sparge water amounts and initial batch ratio to acheive Ph in the mash with the water you've got .
IMHO , Adding salts at homebrew batch size is an absolute waste of energy . It's basically taking something that can improve efficiencies at mass production scales and attempting to
shoehorn it into small bucket .
Great if you want to learn about water chemistry and all , ( like a science experiment ) but not a practical way to improve your craft brewing for the most of us .
Quote from: CH on September 04, 2016, 01:07:00 PM
Was thinking this stuff
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/Mash_Stabilizer_Tech_Sheet.pdf
There's been massive debates on HBT how ph5.2 is a bit of a swizz. I think it's all on AJ's massive water thread.
I've never used it as I'm in a soft water area so I don't know.
Must be something in it tho to regulate pH as surely otherwise no one would buy it?
Quote from: wallacebiy on September 05, 2016, 12:26:11 PM
IMHO , Adding salts at homebrew batch size is an absolute waste of energy . It's basically taking something that can improve efficiencies at mass production scales and attempting to
shoehorn it into small bucket .
From everything I've read online, higher Sulphate content lends itself more to the bitterness we get in IPA's. Watching videos and reading brulospher/reddit things online, water treatment does seem to affect beers for the better.
Where does effiency come into it? I get a steady 75% with BIAB and I'm pretty happy with that.
I've noticed marked increases in my beer quality since I started treating my water. You can ask CH about my water he saw the report. It is incredibly soft and was absolutely horrible for brewing anything but lagers.
It took me ages to figure out why my pale ales and IPAs had such terrible hop character until I started adding sulfate etc it's not just pH that it effects.
Quote from: wallacebiy on September 05, 2016, 12:26:11 PM
IMHO , Adding salts at homebrew batch size is an absolute waste of energy . It's basically taking something that can improve efficiencies at mass production scales and attempting to
shoehorn it into small bucket .
Great if you want to learn about water chemistry and all , ( like a science experiment ) but not a practical way to improve your craft brewing for the most of us .
+1 I have to disagree based on my own experience with adding minerals where I have very soft water. After I had my water analysed (twice now) it has been a real eye opener.
Its a complicated topic and probably one of the most difficult areas for homebrewers to comprehend and some of those online calculators are scary but with my own profile and a target profile beersmith gets me where I need to be and allows me focus back on the ingredients for the recipe.
I will agree with you getting the numbers right without a calibrated jewellers scale and you are wasting your time and certainly easier on 60l batches.
Its probably the last step of the perfection of brewing assuming after you have covered all other bases well.
Minute mineral imbalance can have a massive flavour impact on the finished product.
There was an interesting statement from one of our speakers at Brewcon this year, "all we are drinking is coloured water"
Quote from: northernnick on September 03, 2016, 06:16:01 PM
OK all of these ppm's and per ml/L are the exact reason I find water treatment to be so intimidating.
PPM: Parts per million: So if you have 1 million litres of beer, remove 1 litre and add 1 litre of something you now have 1 ppm!
ml/Litre: A mililitre is one thousance of a litre so 1 mL/Litre is 1000 ppm
if you are really small and using micro litres then:
1uL/L equals 1 ppm
HTH! Will
Quote from: Will_D on September 05, 2016, 08:24:54 PM
Quote from: northernnick on September 03, 2016, 06:16:01 PM
OK all of these ppm's and per ml/L are the exact reason I find water treatment to be so intimidating.
PPM: Parts per million: So if you have 1 million litres of beer, remove 1 litre and add 1 litre of something you now have 1 ppm!
ml/Litre: A mililitre is one thousance of a litre so 1 mL/Litre is 1000 ppm
if you are really small and using micro litres then:
1uL/L equals 1 ppm
HTH! Will
Haha thanks Will. No it wasn't so much I didn't understand their meanings, more the fact that I upon reading the masses of information on water treatment I couldn't discern what I needed to do from theory into practicality. To bring my x to Y ppm and I need to use z ml to balance whatever.
In fact, thanks to a few on here I played around with the "water profile tool" in Beersmith and it's actually surprisingly easy. I put in my closest local water profile in Dublin and a target of a hoppy IPA water profile, selected the water amount and it added all the amounts of Calcium Carbonate, Gypsum, etc.
This has certainly taken any confusion out if the process and hopefully I shall notice a difference next brew.
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I need to get some acids for my mash additions, looking at calculators now my mash pH has been too high, looking forward to getting the new pH meter.
D your water is low in Calcium. Try adding calcium chloride or sulfate. It should help with ph and it's also important for yeast.
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Quote from: dcalnan on September 05, 2016, 11:21:39 PM
I need to get some acids for my mash additions, looking at calculators now my mash pH has been too high, looking forward to getting the new pH meter.
Reduce your initial water quantity to achieve pH in the mash .
Or adjust your grain bill , e.g , when brewing stout , increase the amount of Roast Barley .
To all those arguing that the flavour profile of the beer is improved with water chemistry additions , the same can be achieved by varying the ingredients and or water/grist ratio .
In my opinion that's a better route for small batch brewing .
It sounds like an interesting technique, but surely you are sacrificing flavour by ingredient manipulation?
I'm gonna stick to using cheap water additions and use whatever ingredients I want :P
Acid malt?
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Yep it's on the link in table 3 of that other thread :)
Quote from: CH on September 09, 2016, 03:30:48 PM
It sounds like an interesting technique, but surely you are sacrificing flavour by ingredient manipulation?
I'm gonna stick to using cheap water additions and use whatever ingredients I want :P
You'll learn alot more about brewing by going the ingredient / mash dilution / sparge additions route .
You will also likely get far more flavour , and more interesting beers .
It's how the different styles of beer actually evolved . Water differed from place to place so brewers experimented with their ingredients and brewing techniques until they found the most efficient
ingredient mix for the local water ( thus creating a style ) when attempting to recreate a style from one place in another , a different set of ingredients would be the most efficient , creating regional variation and sub styles .
One of the things I love so much about beer .
In modern times , when brewing under licence, water profile manipulation is used to recreate a style , with the same ingredient efficiency and mash profile . it's usually a thing like
" what do we add / subtract from our own water profile to get it like the water in X city when we're brewing " not all BUL beers will actually get that much attention though .
Miller brewed in Beamish was a vastly different beer to what you get now around the place . They weren't really bothered in there with water additions .
A few smaller breweries, who may have inconsistent
public water supply and not enough clout with their L.A to get it sorted have gone down the route of R.O. water treatment in house , which to be fair leaves you with nothing in your water really
so you then Have to do additions anyway ( otherwise you'll just get nothing out of your beers ) so they get to play around with water profiles a lot more than most .
Personally I don't think it's necessary at Homebrew batch sizes , but if you're having success with it , that's fine .
I have brewed the same recipe three times over a six month period according to my original log sheet, the last being during the summer. That last one turned out very different. It was a SNPA clone but came out harshly bitter. Given that my ingredients came fresh from the suppliers and I did exactly the same brewing method, I suspect water is the culprit. So I joined the group buy for a pH kit.
Am I correct that we can't get a water analysis from Irish Water? Equally, because I'm in Skerries, north Fingal, I suspect I receive water from two sources with the volume from each dependent on local weather conditions - Leixlip and the Bog of the Ring. Therefore, because of that variability going to the expense of a private water analysis would prove useless.
Did I also read that the aquarium kits are basically useless? Finally, am I correct in thinking that when I use my pH meter on the mash, I will then be shooting in the dark with gypsum, epsom salts, calcium chloride - or maybe CRS or even - 5.2. Brad Smith says to use 5.2. What do people think?
Imark will confirm leixlip is all over the place. Aquarium kits are a good way to get a ref point.
Commercially to have your water analysed it could be 80-100!
I fired off an email enquiring about a price for the following : http://www.lamotte-europe.com/products.php?id=16.
It looks like a pretty good test kit. I saw someone on a uk site quote £168 for the kit, but that the kit is viable for up to 5 years, with plenty of chemicals for testing included. it is pricey, but it could be an idea for a few folk to group together and purchase. could profile your water over a 12 month period.
I have seen m brungard on HBT, say that the salifert kits are useful (and they are alot cheaper). And I've seen folks here and elsewhere compare their results with these kits and professional water analysis favourably.
I heard about the iDip on a Beersmith podcast.
Wireless jobbie that syncs with your smart phone...
Http://itseurope.co.uk/shop/smart-brew-standard-kit/
Just to follow up, Lamotte got back with the following :
Part No 7189-01 BrewLab BASIC - €180.00
Part No 7188-01 BrewLab PLUS - €275.00
Part No 7190 – BrewLab PRO - €1160.00
Plus delivery of €35. Reagents have a shelf life of 12-18 months. Possible discount on bulk orders
Honestly Guard they are just water additions
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160921/8a3de0c34fa885047f8195b05058af2f.jpg)
:) :) :) :D