National Homebrew Club Ireland

SA raised a point that we do a lot of Macro bashing.
Do we, if so why?
If you had to choose 1 which would it be?

Guinness Foreign Extra is very good, although it's a bit more special than a bog standard beer. Of the standard pints in a pub I think Beamish is the best on offer. It's not a great stout but its normally a lower price so at least you can feel like you're not wasting a fiver on a pint of macro when you can get a pint of craft for the same.

I think the Sorcerers Apprentice hit the nail on the head in the other thread though, it's not that the macro beers tend to have anything wrong with them, they just don't have enough flavour for what our palates now prefer.

Why have Semi skimmed when you can have cream kinda thing?

I'll happily drink any of the macro Irish stouts if there is no craft on.  Occasionally even if there is depending on what the options are.  Macro lager can go to hell though.

The real problem with the macros is their business practices though. Trying to push competition off the shelves and taps.

This is like going to confession  >:D. I actually don't half mind Smithwick's Pale Ale on Draught.  I hope my membership is not subsequently revoked now  :o.

There's a number of macro beers that I'd have no problem drinking: Tiger or Cobra when I'm eating Thai or Indian. I quite like a Corona when there's nothing else available and the mood is upon me. I'd drink Guinness if I was stuck.

I agree that we have a tendency to bash the small craft producers for their lack of consistency while ignoring that the macros do consistency very well. SA hits the nail on the head of course, the macro beers themselves are just bland for us folks. We shake our heads in disappointment when we taste Smithwicks Pale ale, thinking what a poor effort it is, but the fact is that it's carefully designed to appeal to those who would run a mile from assertive flavours.

There's always going to a place for bland, mass-produced beer. I don't mind that. However, I do mind when macro breweries re-badge their bland efforts as craft - Open Gate, orchard Thieves etc.

I'll always have a soft spot for Smithwicks PA because I drank loads of it when there was no craft available on tap around here.  Just having a pale ale to drink was enough. We are really spoiled now, there is almost nowhere in Wicklow now that doesn't have a tap or 2 from your new of the local micros.

I was a t a gig in Vicar St a few months ago too and they had it on tap too. I was happy to see it in a setting like that.

Or what happened in Cork and Kerry recently

Like Bubbles, I like a big glass of Cobra when out for an Indian. Good tasting craft beer is wasted when you're eating hot and spicy food, in my opinion.

I sometimes feel a little guilty for turning my back on Guinness; it was my pint of choice for over 2 decades and still would be when there's no craft on offer.
Was persuaded by a waiter in a restaurant recently to give Guinness Nitro IPA a go. Oh dear me; we were sitting there holding up our pints going 'where's the hops??  Where's the flavour??' It honestly tasted like watered down Guinness stout. Awful. My point being, however, I gave it a go.

Now to a real problem. We had friends round for dinner last Friday and we bought in bottles of Bud for the bloke, knowing that's all he drinks. Bloody forgot to make sure he took the remaining bottles and cans home with him when they were leaving so as a result my fridge is now infested with containers of horrible bland pi$$ The tight Tyrone man in me doesn't want to simply throw it out so if someone can come up with a really good alternative, there's a selection of, ahem, premium American lagers in it for you  :P

-Barry

Please tell me you didn't buy that in the Vineyard, they know me in there.
I'm sure they put it in brown paper bag when you bought it and you left out the back door?
Make a hop tea?

As a beer for a homebrewer it's really hard to make as is miller, corona is easy though, alledgedly.

Cobra and Tiger to me are just bog standard lagers. It annoys me that you can go to a pricey Asian restaurant with an extensive wine menu and their beer options are all cheap rice lagers. Likewise when you go to a Mexican place and they only serve Corona. Ethnic food = great. Ethnic beer = generally crap.

IPA goes great with spicy food too.

Have to agree. Spicy chicken wings and a glass of GBB Goin' Out West DIPA was one of the tastiest beer/food combos I've ever had :)

I can remember when I thought Guinness and Smithwicks had plenty of flavour in them, it wasn't that long ago being honest. I'd still fall back on those if there's nothing else available, because macro lagers are the absolute worst. Whereas I consider Guinness to be unexciting but inoffensive, I'd consider Bud offensively bad.

Leffe and a bunch of the other  "macro" Belgian beers for me. Quite a fan of London Pride when I can find a fresh bottle. Does the O'Haras red count - that stuff is lovely? :)

Forgot about Leffe. And Hoegaarden is another I do enjoy on tap.

Quote from: CH on December 12, 2016, 12:22:59 PM
Or what happened in Cork and Kerry recently

Heineken seem to be one of the worst offenders. That Cute Hoor stuff is vile too.

Quote from: JDC123 on December 12, 2016, 12:13:46 PM
This is like going to confession  >:D. I actually don't half mind Smithwick's Pale Ale on Draught.  I hope my membership is not subsequently revoked now  :o.

Get out!!!

Most Macro beer tastes terrible to me. Heineken is probably the worst followed by Harp. I also really detest Guinness. Never liked the stuff. Visually, it looks so damn tasty though. Its by far the nicest looking beer.

Nice Macro beers...How about Pilsner Urquell. It's just superb. Brahma beer is quite easy to drink, and I quite enjoy the odd pint of Fischers Helles

I used to chug PUrq, and this stuff by the gallon in my 20's, all the dirty little secrets coming out now

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161212/0d06b3fd30a2bf9550c45acca7106d4f.png)

Quote from: CH on December 12, 2016, 05:32:44 PM
I used to chug PUrq, and this stuff by the gallon in my 20's, all the dirty little secrets coming out now

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161212/0d06b3fd30a2bf9550c45acca7106d4f.png)

In fairness in terms of macro larger you could do worse when compared to some other equivalents with a similar coloured bottle or similar sounding name. I spent time in OZ and became fond of VB - Victoria Bitter (aka Vicious Bastard to some) and Toohies Red. I must admit to also having developed a taste for Boddingtons, Black Sheep Bitter, Hoegaarden, Sam Adams and even Kilkenny over the years having lived/worked in various overseas location. Generally speaking I would be a great believer of drinking/eating whatever is locally brewed.

Shanna

Quote from: CH on December 12, 2016, 05:32:44 PM
I used to chug PUrq, and this stuff by the gallon in my 20's, all the dirty little secrets coming out now

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161212/0d06b3fd30a2bf9550c45acca7106d4f.png)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/grjV0CMcXs4/maxresdefault.jpg)

Sorry.   :D

Go fuck yerself

To the unfamiliar Nigel and I know each other very well and this is friendly banter as he is as wide as I am tall

 :-*

I was reared on McArdles ale, Smithwicks filled in for it when I moved to Dublin.
Guinness would still be my fallback these days.
Luckily, it's been a long time since I've been in a pub that didn't at least have a couple of bottles of crafty stuff in the fridge.

I just laughed so hard I think I did some wee...

My favourite macro stout was Beamish but it's a pale shadow of what it once was. Also lately when I do drink a pint of Guinness it tastes very watered down.

Duvel - No better example of Belgian golden strong? Definitely not micro. One of my favourite beers.

Also,
Kozel - super Czech dark lager.

Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2016, 07:32:50 PM
My favourite macro stout was Beamish but it's a pale shadow of what it once was. Also lately when I do drink a pint of Guinness it tastes very watered down.

Over what time range?  I couldn't spot any difference between when I first tried it to today.

Also what is that taste/smell of cheesy feet in Heineken?

+1 on Duvel. You tend not to think of it as a "macro" beer, because it's so bloody good.

Bottles of Erdinger and pints of Paulaner have also saved me on many a night when there's no craft options available.

I remember being at a wedding a couple of years ago and spent the night drinking McArdles, much to the amusement of my da and uncles. Even they saw it as an auld fella's drink. But it's a really nice beer, I'd love to make a clone of it.

Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 13, 2016, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 12, 2016, 07:32:50 PM
My favourite macro stout was Beamish but it's a pale shadow of what it once was. Also lately when I do drink a pint of Guinness it tastes very watered down.

Over what time range?  I couldn't spot any difference between when I first tried it to today.

Also what is that taste/smell of cheesy feet in Heineken?

I can remember when Guinness had more body to it then it does today. The Beamish too use to be more chocolate/coffee in its taste. Have not drank Heineken in years so cannot attest to that

Macro beers go through tasting panels all the time and have the recipe change depending on what they think the market wants, hence why Budweiser has halved their IBUs over the past 20 years. Guinness sent to Britain isn't even the same recipe as Irish Guinness either so that shows how far down their recipe targeting goes.

My thinking is that Guinness used to be a "stout" beer (in the literal sense of the word) and with the increasing popularity of lighter lagers they had to alter the recipe to stay more in line with those beers.

I love my craft beer, but a good pint of guinness is hard to beat!

So the answer to the thread title is no. No correlation between quantity and quality as far as I can see.

If the definition of quality is taste uniqueness character and flavour then macro is not quality. If however your definition is consistency, universality, well that's a different story.
Interesting that a lot a comment about commercial lagers and not as much negativity towards commercial stouts.
Anyway as Homebrewers we probably have skewed views as we are chasing those attributes in the first sentence and so anything bland will never cut it.

Quote from: irish_goat on December 13, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Macro beers go through tasting panels all the time and have the recipe change depending on what they think the market wants, hence why Budweiser has halved their IBUs over the past 20 years. Guinness sent to Britain isn't even the same recipe as Irish Guinness either so that shows how far down their recipe targeting goes.

My thinking is that Guinness used to be a "stout" beer (in the literal sense of the word) and with the increasing popularity of lighter lagers they had to alter the recipe to stay more in line with those beers.

That is fine, but don't try and hide the fact and insist that its the same recipe as it was when your Dad or Grand Dad drank it. I had a publican in the city centre almost bust a blood vessel when I remarked that guiness is very different to when I first drank it over 20 years ago. He spent the night insisting that its exactly the same drink which is a bit of stretch.

Shanna

Quote from: CH on December 13, 2016, 02:54:45 PM
If the definition of quality is taste uniqueness character and flavour then macro is not quality.

Disagree. The examples of kozel, Duvel, Guinness Foreign Extra, etc are flavourful  and some of the best examples of their respective styles.
But you're right about consistency in quality. That's a hands down win for macro.

I've just realised that nobody has mentioned any English breweries yet.. The likes of Fullers, Adnams, Young's are as far from "micro" as you could get. Great examples of their style too.

I'm rather partial to a pint of Spitfire, it's a cracking beer.

Hmm maybe I should have qualified the op by saying Macro produced on the Island

Quote from: irish_goat on December 13, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Guinness sent to Britain isn't even the same recipe as Irish Guinness either

Really? Where did you get this info from?

Quote from: Bubbles on December 13, 2016, 04:08:55 PM
I've just realised that nobody has mentioned any English breweries yet.. The likes of Fullers, Adnams, Young's are as far from "micro" as you could get. Great examples of their style too.

I'm rather partial to a pint of Spitfire, it's a cracking beer.

Not really Macro either though are they? A lot smaller than the likes of Sierra Nevada and Sam Adams I believe.

Quote from: delzep on December 13, 2016, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: irish_goat on December 13, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Guinness sent to Britain isn't even the same recipe as Irish Guinness either

Really? Where did you get this info from?

It's got a different alcoholic percentage.

Quote from: Qs on December 13, 2016, 05:45:35 PM

Quote from: Bubbles on December 13, 2016, 04:08:55 PM
I've just realised that nobody has mentioned any English breweries yet.. The likes of Fullers, Adnams, Young's are as far from "micro" as you could get. Great examples of their style too.

I'm rather partial to a pint of Spitfire, it's a cracking beer.

Not really Macro either though are they? A lot smaller than the likes of Sierra Nevada and Sam Adams I believe.

I'd have thought so tbh. Nearer macro than micro in terms of output.

Quote from: irish_goat on December 13, 2016, 05:52:20 PM

Quote from: delzep on December 13, 2016, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: irish_goat on December 13, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Guinness sent to Britain isn't even the same recipe as Irish Guinness either

Really? Where did you get this info from?

It's got a different alcoholic percentage.

It's brewed in Dublin to the same recipe, and exported to the packaging plant in the UK at high gravity and diluted to sales gravity there, the theory was no point in sending water over water, so transporting at high gravity reduces transport costs.

I assume RO in UK?

There are big differences in the resources available to big breweries and small micros, eg the amount of automated instrumentation and control available along with lab support etc.
I imagine some of the micros are stumbling along in the dark and they pick up experience as they go. That's not to say that some are not making great efforts despite these shortcomings. In many ways it's like comparing chalk with cheese,
Recipes evolve from time to time to suit markets and raw material shortages etc. The experience at macro level is that there can be an accumulative taste build up, so a beer which tastes great for the first pint or two can seem overpowering after a few. (Sessionability tests are performed to test this) The consumer's taste can become saturated and he changes onto another product, whereby the breweries will always stress and espose their support for sensible drinking, they don't want you to drink one or two and move onto vodka and redbull for example. If you're going to drink in an insensible way they want you to do it with their products. This is one of the reasons that IBUs and colour have reduced over the years in macros. Where they have been caught out is many people want to drink sensibly but want a lot more flavour.
To their credit Guinness produced a number of craft beers in the 1990s, I remember a spiced ale, a dark lager, a weiss beer there was a fourth one but I can't remember it now. They were called something like the St James Gate series. But as with Guinness light they were ahead of their time and Irish consumers didn't want them. The weiss beer developed into Breo and ran for a while but was eventually stopped as it failed to reach target sales. It did however cut the furrow for the success of Erdinger and Hoegaarden in Ireland, which was in my opinion the opening of the market to different styles of beer here.

Quote from: CH on December 13, 2016, 11:07:28 PM
I assume RO in UK?

Yes

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 13, 2016, 10:37:22 PMIt's brewed in Dublin to the same recipe, and exported to the packaging plant in the UK at high gravity and diluted to sales gravity there, the theory was no point in sending water over water, so transporting at high gravity reduces transport costs.

That still makes it a different recipe though, it's a percentage point lower in ABV so must have more water added.

"Sessionability test" sounds like a great thing though.  8)

Last but not least, what I meant by an anti macro bias is that, I regularly see a type of beer snobbery whereby somebody decrees that x brand of beer is only piss and lots chime in behind in agreement. It's a common thing on lots of homebrew forum. Many may not even have tried the beer, an example would be Budweisser, if you ever have a chance to visit a Budweisser brewery, go in and have a look. Their attention to detail and hygiene levels knock everyone else out of the park. If it isn't 100% right then it isn't Budweisser and it's dumped. All that effort doesn't produce a beer to everyone's taste, but it is very popular worldwide so they are doing something right. It has a place on a hot day at a bbq and with its sweetness is a lot better with spicy food than the ethnic beers usually offered. To say this on some forums is considered heresy.
Another example is Harp, in blind tasting trials Harp always out performed it's two main rivals here in Ireland. When Heineken first arrived in Ireland there was a dirty tricks war with their reps telling everyone that Harp was full of chemical's, that combined with Christy Moore's Harpic reference sealed it's faith.  However across the border in Norn Iron it's the number one selling beer. I remember Captain Americas restaurant in Grafton Street uniquely used to sell Harp Export -a super beer.
I heard an interview between Pat Kenny and a micro brewer on Newstalk, Pat asked what's the difference between your beer and macro beer? The response was the old Heineken one "We don't use Chemicals" inferring that everyone else does. I'd love to know how they clean their vessels or do they treat their water with for example gypsum CaSO4·2H2O?  Looks like lots of us homebrewers are also guilty then.
There's room in the world for lots of beer, I'm a big advocate for beer, all beer. It's a healthy option in moderation, and much lower in ABV than its alcoholic rivals. An anecdote a taxi driver once told me that on the original Arthur's Day the difference in his punters was amazing. People were either singing in the back of the car or sleeping, with none of the usual hassle. He put it down to the fact that everyone was drinking beer that night rather than shots and redbull.

[quote
"Sessionability test" sounds like a great thing though.  8)
[/quote]
I learned about it in the UK, some breweries invite a group eg a rugby club in to sample beers. There are two unbranded options, like a red and a green tap (representing your regular recipe and your new experimental recipe) The participants are given red and green plastic disks, and encouraged to discuss the beers They "pay" for their drinks with the appropriate disk, and the barman later counts the disks to see which beer over the night was most popular.

I remember doing the BJCP course was a real eye opener for some of the macro beers were were trying, since they are prototypical of the style. When blindly scoring and picking the beer apart, you got all these wonderful flavours that you hadn't considered before.
There is a massive craft and micro bias. Like you say, there's room in the market for everyone and in the end of the day, beer is a commodity.

Stop bashing micro's S.A.  :)
Micros good ...Diageo bad  >:(

But whilst on that topic is it true that the bad breweries treat there employees very well as in pay and conditions and the good breweries treat them like well..... not so good. I heard a month ago from a guy not a taxi driver that a brewer in well knownmicro was on less pay than an intern in a bad brewery  :o.
For me its not just about the beer it the treatment of employees that's why I don't fly Ryan air.

Oh no another can of worms 😥

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Smithwicks is so bland its really quite remarkable. I used to think I didn't like Red Ale as a result, but I now regularly drink Rebel Red in my local (not a huge amount of choice there) and it's quite nice - not sure if the FW stuff is considered macro now. I'm a big fan of Hobgoblin as well (is it a red ale?). 

Anyway my point is Smithwicks is defining an entire style here and doing a terrible terrible job of it. On the couple of occasions I've had McArdles I thought it was ok, and tastier in comparison (someone's going to tell me now that it's just Smithwicks in different packaging).

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/4/45/Duff_lite_%26_dry.png)

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 09:08:51 AMbut it is very popular worldwide so they are doing something right.

Yes, it's called marketing.

I remember when Budweiser was first introduced in Ireland- there was a gang of us at the bar and we all ordered a pint thinking we were going to taste something fantastic. The look of disappointment on everyones face was obvious. We even ended up asking the barman if it was supposed to taste like that. And then there was the time I was at a 4th of July Party which had free Bud- they literally couldn't give the stuff away. And it was a hot day...

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
Last but not least, what I meant by an anti macro bias is that, I regularly see a type of beer snobbery whereby somebody decrees that x brand of beer is only piss and lots chime in behind in agreement. It's a common thing on lots of homebrew forum.

And? In my opinion almost all the macro lagers are awful. In my opinion. I brew beer because I'm interested in how things work, I like working on projects and I'm also trying to replicate something close to the best beers I've ever tasted. Replicating a boring macro lager isn't high up my list. If other people want to that's up to them

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
Many may not even have tried the beer, an example would be Budweisser, if you ever have a chance to visit a Budweisser brewery, go in and have a look. Their attention to detail and hygiene levels knock everyone else out of the park. If it isn't 100% right then it isn't Budweisser and it's dumped. All that effort doesn't produce a beer to everyone's taste, but it is very popular worldwide so they are doing something right. It has a place on a hot day at a bbq and with its sweetness is a lot better with spicy food than the ethnic beers usually offered. To say this on some forums is considered heresy.

They produce a consistent product and certain people like it. Still doesn't make it good in my opinion

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
I heard an interview between Pat Kenny and a micro brewer on Newstalk, Pat asked what's the difference between your beer and macro beer? The response was the old Heineken one "We don't use Chemicals" inferring that everyone else does. I'd love to know how they clean their vessels or do they treat their water with for example gypsum CaSO4·2H2O?  Looks like lots of us homebrewers are also guilty then.

I don't think that's the point they were making. Heino doesn't stay fresh in a green bottle without preservatives. Corona in bottles makes me shudder just thinking about

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
There's room in the world for lots of beer, I'm a big advocate for beer, all beer. It's a healthy option in moderation, and much lower in ABV than its alcoholic rivals.

I'm all for that if there's a level playing field. The fact that a couple of the big boys are being cute isn't helping. I find the selection of beers in the majority of Irish pubs depressing.

The "well people like it" argument is only a half truth about macro lager. People are used to it and have been marketed at very hard. When macro lager is 80% of the tap range in most places, or at least it was until very recently then thats what people will drink. If people drink it for years they become comfortable with it. There isn't an even playing field where most people tried all the beers out there and said "yep its Bud/Heino for me".

Quote from: shweeney on December 14, 2016, 10:22:03 AM
Smithwicks is so bland its really quite remarkable.

Absolutely agree. Those people must have worked their cotton socks off to get something as deliberately tasteless as Smithwicks Red ale. In a wide field, it has to be the worst macro beer produced in Ireland.

Quote from: Bubbles on December 14, 2016, 12:49:31 PM

Quote from: shweeney on December 14, 2016, 10:22:03 AM
Smithwicks is so bland its really quite remarkable.

Absolutely agree. Those people must have worked their cotton socks off to get something as deliberately tasteless as Smithwicks Red ale. In a wide field, it has to be the worst macro beer produced in Ireland.

I also do find this beer to be uninteresting. When you look at the history of this brewery and the family that began it you can see a great movie there.

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 13, 2016, 11:11:56 PM
If you're going to drink in an insensible way they want you to do it with their products. This is one of the reasons that IBUs and colour have reduced over the years in macros. Where they have been caught out is many people want to drink sensibly but want a lot more flavour.

I'm interested in the change in beer over time.  Where is the information available on EBC and IBU changes in the main commercial beers over this period?

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 13, 2016, 11:11:56 PM
To their credit Guinness produced a number of craft beers in the 1990s, I remember a spiced ale, a dark lager, a weiss beer there was a fourth one but I can't remember it now.

I'd be wary of apportioning praise to Diageo, ultimately their aim was to make every style of beer a Diageo product so it would not have led to a more open market.

You make an interesting point regarding Harp, I think it was BrenMurph put up an old brewlog for the Great Northern Brewery and the recipe looked lovely, oodles of saaz.  However it was a victim of a marketing war between the majors, and Diageo for whatever reason seemed content to let it fade away.  I'm not even sure if you can buy it or the Export version here.

Where's Sally O'Brien when you need her ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1yNjS5Si1I

Dempsey did you ever had white shoes?

https://youtu.be/yQaT-LlTk_8

Quote from: CH on December 14, 2016, 01:47:24 PM
Dempsey did you ever had white shoes?

https://youtu.be/yQaT-LlTk_8

LOL wtf is that ad all about. Couple of bums reclining in someone's doorway after a feed of cans when two wans come along waving a broken bike about so they go up a bridge. Brilliant... They don't make em like that anymore

Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 14, 2016, 01:14:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1yNjS5Si1I

Where did they get that fella out of?? He looks like Face from the A-Team! :D

Funny how I don't seem to remember this one on RTE

https://youtu.be/yvP5x0rs-GM

I love Stella Artois, I'm a lager drinker primarily and unashamedly.

No micro really gets lager very good.

The Five Lamps is an alright example, but in totality they are crap and done with the wrong (i.e. local) hops and this just doesn't work for me.

I am not such a fan of hopped up IPA's, I like session beers and find I can't skull a "rake" of pints of some craft brew where I could do this with Stella.

My beer quality test is to get pissed on it and then see how my head is the next day, so far, Stella wins every time.

I dislike a lot of macros due to their sly tactics as it really is all about money for them.

Quote from: CH on December 14, 2016, 01:59:31 PM
Funny how I don't seem to rennet this one on RTE

https://youtu.be/yvP5x0rs-GM

That's a bit of a cheesy reply.

Never saw that add before.  ;D

Is it real?

Of course it's real it's in the internet isn't it

Quote from: Bubbles on December 14, 2016, 01:55:30 PM

Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 14, 2016, 01:14:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1yNjS5Si1I

Where did they get that fella out of?? He looks like Face from the A-Team! :D

That was the main ad I remember from my childhood, it had particular poignancy as my da was working in Saudi Arabia at the time, we always joked about frying eggs on rocks.

Quote from: Eoin on December 14, 2016, 02:02:24 PM

No micro really gets lager very good.

The Five Lamps is an alright example, but in totality they are crap and done with the wrong (i.e. local) hops and this just doesn't work for me.

Are Irish micros making lagers with local hops though?  Have you tried the Lidl Crafty Lager? It's a gem.  Five Lamps are owned by C&C (owners of Bulmers).

Quote from: Eoin on December 14, 2016, 03:33:00 PM

Quote from: Bubbles on December 14, 2016, 01:55:30 PM

Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 14, 2016, 01:14:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1yNjS5Si1I

Where did they get that fella out of?? He looks like Face from the A-Team! :D

That was the main ad I remember from my childhood, it had particular poignancy as my da was working in Saudi Arabia at the time, we always joked about frying eggs on rocks.

It's a good 'un alright. I remember it well.

I liked the "packet of dates" one aswell..

Another vote for stella from me. A well made beer, cursed with a diabolical reputation.

I never thought that I'd ever be defending Heineken or Corona but it should be corrected that they don't use preservatives. The Heineken use a special hop product which is not light sensitive, these hops are extremely expensive and Corona stick a slice of lime in the bottle to cover up the skunk flavour 😆

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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 05:29:50 PM
I never thought that I'd ever be defending Heineken or Corona but it should be corrected that they don't use preservatives. The Heineken use a special hop product which is not light sensitive, these hops are extremely expensive and Corona stick a slice of lime in the bottle to cover up the skunk flavour 😆

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I can confirm that Heineken use Tetra-hop. I have seen the pallets of empty containers at the brewery.
Earlier on the tour we were shown jars of malt and hops I opened the jar of whole leaf hops to take a smell. The feckin things were plastic stunt hops.  ;D

So no preservatives or optical brighteners then, amazing how they can get such a long shelf life out of the product

Should have gone the Mexican route with slices of lime, could have saved themselves a fortune, or packaged in brown glass like everyone else

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Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 14, 2016, 03:44:25 PM

Quote from: Eoin on December 14, 2016, 02:02:24 PM

No micro really gets lager very good.

The Five Lamps is an alright example, but in totality they are crap and done with the wrong (i.e. local) hops and this just doesn't work for me.

Are Irish micros making lagers with local hops though?  Have you tried the Lidl Crafty Lager? It's a gem.  Five Lamps are owned by C&C (owners of Bulmers).

Well they always taste shite  for some reason....The hops never taste correct to me and the malts have to be local malts too and they are never up to the Bamberger standard.

And so applying the rule, " It's not real butter mom". :D

I agree with most of the comments here about macro/micro, and from my own point of view having a real choice of styles & a locally produced option is important - I might be missing out but I generally only drink foreign craft beers when I'm in those countries.

Anyway, I wonder if there is some 'perception bias' (may not be a real term) at play here too in how we judge the beers. 

I've seen a few people rate some German beers from Spaten/Paulaner/Erdinger etc as being good beers, however, when in Bavaria I've had drinking buddies call them and other German Macros 'international piss' compared to the Helles/Pils/Weisen/whatever from their local breweries.   

The one exception seems to be Augustiner which seems to be recognised by the locals as the best Munich brewery - I'm assuming they're considered a macro if they produced 1.59 million hectolitres last year (http://aktiongutesbier.de/statistik-bier-und-brauereien/).

Quote from: Eoin on December 15, 2016, 09:36:04 AM
Well they always taste shite  for some reason....The hops never taste correct to me and the malts have to be local malts too and they are never up to the Bamberger standard.

I've not heard complaints about Irish pilsner malts before, any macro or other lager is hardly being made with malt from Bamberg either.  Ditto with the hops.

Most Micros don't get lagers right because they're not brewing lagers. The bulk use hybrid yeast or ale yeast

The Wicklow Brewery Helles is pretty spot on. Not a big Helles fan myself but its a well made beer.

Galway bay Dortmunder is pretty good.
Marginally better than my attempt.

Quote from: mrmeindl on December 15, 2016, 06:16:30 PM
Yellowbellys lager must be fairly passable they've weaned a few auld men off the heino/bud/carlsberg...never tried it myself!

That's not exactly David Copperfield level stuff, The beers you mention are made with a sessionable purpose, but flavour is not one of them.

Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 15, 2016, 12:59:19 PM

Quote from: Eoin on December 15, 2016, 09:36:04 AM
Well they always taste shite  for some reason....The hops never taste correct to me and the malts have to be local malts too and they are never up to the Bamberger standard.

I've not heard complaints about Irish pilsner malts before, any macro or other lager is hardly being made with malt from Bamberg either.  Ditto with the hops.

The IMC lager malts which we had were terrible conversion wise. Into the 60's-70's where I can normally achieve 80% with a UK or German malt.

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 05:29:50 PM
I never thought that I'd ever be defending Heineken or Corona but it should be corrected that they don't use preservatives. The Heineken use a special hop product which is not light sensitive, these hops are extremely expensive and Corona stick a slice of lime in the bottle to cover up the skunk flavour 😆

Nearly, they use reduced isohumulone extracts- most likely tetra-isohumulone (rho- and hexa- are also possibilities). It's quite an involved chemical process to make these modified alpha acids.

Quote from: Andrew on December 16, 2016, 09:18:54 AM

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 14, 2016, 05:29:50 PM
I never thought that I'd ever be defending Heineken or Corona but it should be corrected that they don't use preservatives. The Heineken use a special hop product which is not light sensitive, these hops are extremely expensive and Corona stick a slice of lime in the bottle to cover up the skunk flavour 😆

Nearly, they use reduced isohumulone extracts- most likely tetra-isohumulone (rho- and hexa- are also possibilities). It's quite an involved chemical process to make these modified alpha acids.

But they are not preservatives

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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice link=topic=16753.msg163320#msg163320 date=1481883427But they are not preservatives
/quote]
They are to the extent that they are being used to increase shelf life by inhibiting the formation of 3MBT.

Putting a cap on the bottle extends the shelf life,  but it doesn't make it a preservative, the reduced iso hops protect the beer from UV light damage in the same way that brown glass prevents UV damage, they dont impact on shelf life.
The original statement was that preservatives are added to Heineken, and quite simply this is not true.
Getting back to my original point, this is a homebrew forum not Beoir.(which had a stated agenda) There's a political agenda against macros from some members, aired in the public area of the forum, but when someone questions some of the infected Irish craft beers there's a rush to put it in the members area with a suggestion to go easy on the brewers, a bit of balance is all I'd like, or preferably rant away on Beoir and leave this forum to homebrewing.

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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 16, 2016, 11:16:05 AM
Putting a cap on the bottle extends the shelf life,  but it doesn't make it a preservative, the reduced iso hops protect the beer from UV light damage in the same way that brown glass prevents UV damage, they dont impact on shelf life.

Of course they impact on shelf life- do you think a beer made with natural hops and packaged in green glass would last as long as Heineken?

Quote from: Eoin on December 15, 2016, 09:36:04 AM

The IMC lager malts which we had were terrible conversion wise. Into the 60's-70's where I can normally achieve 80% with a UK or German malt.

By IMC malts is that the same as MCI in Cork? Hard to believe they could stay in business if efficiency is so poor. Cost aside though poor efficiency wouldn't have that much of an effect on flavour?

SA I see your point. I'd rather discussion of the craft breweries were not private as then there's a chance they might read it.

There's very little in the way of Irish beer I could fully recommend over an international competitor.

Even the onshoring of bottling for some of the craft breweries seems to have negatively affected the product, with the bottled product tasting quite dull.

Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 16, 2016, 01:21:24 PM


SA I see your point. I'd rather discussion of the craft breweries were not private as then there's a chance they might read it.

But we are not a beer consumer group our function is to break down the beer into its component parts and use that information to facilitate us to brew better beer.

If we get something that's really bad well then yeah I would suggest a copy of the discussion is forwarded onto the brewery as a courtesy.

I have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer, 5 minutes of Finney has had a few rants about bottling quality but I haven't seen her name and shame for obvious reasons it's potentially slander.

It shouldn't be in the public area as there is the potential of a defamation issue for the NHC which unlike a Macro, a micro would struggle to recover from.

Oddly, Macros attitude to us as homebrewers is pretty dismissive unlike micros who are supportive of what we do.

Macros are good at what they do but they are money making machines and some operate with poor business practices. There is no political agenda in NHC that I can see or bashing here these are just facts.

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PM



I have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer,

Ever wonder why that is?

Surely nothing to do with freebies/promos etc....

Is it defamation if you correctly point out off flavours that exist in a beer?

Quote from: delzep on December 16, 2016, 02:11:57 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PM



I have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer,

Ever wonder why that is?

Surely nothing to do with freebies/promos etc....

I suspect that they get cut more slack due to them already being the one that's struggling in the face of a lot of money from the macros.

Quote from: garciaBernal on December 16, 2016, 02:16:25 PM
Is it defamation if you correctly point out off flavours that exist in a beer?

It could be tricky to prove a tasting is objective without empirical evidence. Also it could just be one bottle and not representative of the batch or other batches.

There's a reason I don't speak legal :D

Quote from: Eoin on December 16, 2016, 02:22:54 PM

Quote from: delzep on December 16, 2016, 02:11:57 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PM



I have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer,

Ever wonder why that is?

Surely nothing to do with freebies/promos etc....

I suspect that they get cut more slack due to them already being the one that's struggling in the face of a lot of money from the macros.

That's a bit patronising. How is a brewery ever gonna learn and improve if all their feedback is a false positive?

Edit - not patronising by you

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PMI have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer.

The Beer Nut does all the time. Here's one from 2 weeks ago. https://thebeernut.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/they-dont-know-jack.html

Quote from: irish_goat on December 16, 2016, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PMI have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer.

The Beer Nut does all the time. Here's one from 2 weeks ago. https://thebeernut.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/they-dont-know-jack.html

Was just about to post re the beernut, but you beat me to it. He never beats around the bush with his descriptions regardless of where the beer is from.

Quote from: delzep on December 16, 2016, 02:29:03 PM

That's a bit patronising. How is a brewery ever gonna learn and improve if all their feedback is a false positive?

I offered feedback to a (well established) irish craft brewery about, in my opinion, a very poor and misrepresentative batch of their normally excellent product, offered to send the last of the bottles I'd bought (I'd had 2 out of the 3 I'd bought ) down to them for investigation, gave them the batch number and BBE date from the bottle, place and date of purchase etc... it wasn't just a "your beer's shit" email.

Heard nothing back.

After a week I opened the third bottle, tried it, tipped it down the drain like the other two. I'm not going to say I won't buy their beer again, but it leaves a bad taste in your mouth... pun intended.

Quote from: irish_goat on December 16, 2016, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PMI have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer.

The Beer Nut does all the time. Here's one from 2 weeks ago. https://thebeernut.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/they-dont-know-jack.html

I posted pics a while back of my visit to that place, I didn't mention where it was or who it was, but it was the brewery in question.

Now I was only helping him out on some points, I've been too busy to taste his beers and give him some feedback, but he wants me to come in and provide feedback on his beers and how they could be improved.

Not a glowing review and I've forwarded it on to him, so let's see what he makes of it.

I think he'll take it on the chin and seek to improve the beers.

Funny I was reading a lot of Johns stuff and it was tamer maybe he was going through a good spell

Anybody else have this

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161216/971a77871eb26ce3d68ad99b5eede109.png)

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 04:08:10 PM
Anybody else have this
Unfeasibly large image removed :P

Yes, I have a copy of it somewhere.

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 04:08:10 PM
Anybody else have this

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161216/971a77871eb26ce3d68ad99b5eede109.png)

Santa is going to be delivering the updated 200 recipe version for XMas.

Shanna

Quote from: Shanna on December 16, 2016, 04:22:39 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 04:08:10 PM
Anybody else have this

Santa is going to be delivering the updated 200 recipe version for XMas.

Shanna

Yes, but I only ever brew the Irish Harp recipe  :P

-Barry

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 04:08:10 PM
Anybody else have this

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161216/971a77871eb26ce3d68ad99b5eede109.png)

Have the updated version on kindle. Did a saison DuPont clone from it, turned out fairly well.

I have the updated version too but I've never brewed anything from it. I use it more as a way of getting ideas and the general area I need to be in for a style rather than for trying to straight up clone stuff.

Quote from: Andrew on December 16, 2016, 11:56:28 AM

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 16, 2016, 11:16:05 AM
Putting a cap on the bottle extends the shelf life,  but it doesn't make it a preservative, the reduced iso hops protect the beer from UV light damage in the same way that brown glass prevents UV damage, they dont impact on shelf life.

Of course they impact on shelf life- do you think a beer made with natural hops and packaged in green glass would last as long as Heineken?

Sorry Andrew but I still disagree , some brewers don't consider light struck a problem, the Mexicans for example and even Stella Artois is quite skunky. Tests have shown that consumers don't treat it in the same way as some brewers and many are happy with the taste.
Hops have been used as a preservative since the middle ages, but Pheeel's comment was " Heino doesn't stay fresh in a green bottle without preservatives. Corona in bottles makes me shudder just thinking about it"
This is suggesting that a preservative like sulphites have been added to the beer. Heineken is brewed with reduced Iso hops, the hint is in the name reduced iso alpha acids, iso acids which are light sensitive are removed from the original hop material, the process also removes pesticides which are present in a lot of raw hop material. So if anything they are adding less material/preservatives than traditional hopping methods not more.
Shelf life is about collidal stability, heat  damage and dissolved O2 levels, since many breweries are happy with light struck beer from day one, it is not an issue regarding shelf life.
Corona use traditional hops so I don't know what his issue is with it.
Many "Craft" style beers are packaged in clear bottles particularly from the UK, the issue with these is that the beer is highly polished usually with pvpp, a type of nylon beads are added to the beer and removed after the pvpps have attached themselves to the polyphenol compounds within the beer. Some remove the PVPP with kieselgur which creates an ungodly mess and is dumped as landfill. I'd be more concerned about this than iso reduced hops to be honest.

PS CH had alluded to this earlier in the thread

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Quote from: Taf on December 16, 2016, 02:38:27 PM

Quote from: irish_goat on December 16, 2016, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PMI have yet to read a slating review of any Irish Beers from any Irish Bloggers about any Irish Beer.

The Beer Nut does all the time. Here's one from 2 weeks ago. https://thebeernut.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/they-dont-know-jack.html

Was just about to post re the beernut, but you beat me to it. He never beats around the bush with his descriptions regardless of where the beer is from.

Best beer blog, by a country mile. Very objective, not to mention incredibly well-written. A lot of beer blogs give me the impression that they're only doing it to kiss arse and get some freebies.

Quote from: Ed on December 16, 2016, 02:46:12 PM
I'm not going to say I won't buy their beer again, but it leaves a bad taste in your mouth... pun intended.

Well, why not? I don't believe anyone can criticise you for simply stating facts. Their beer was shit and they didn't have the courtesy to respond to your well meaning feedback.

I'm in a beer desert in Malahide

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161216/fd060bf1f250f60ff96896ca0a3cdd1c.jpg)

What's that? Some barrelled aged NCB Porter?

Quote from: CH on December 16, 2016, 02:04:10 PM
It shouldn't be in the public area as there is the potential of a defamation issue for the NHC

If reviewing a product and saying it's shit (in your opinion) was defamation I don't think Amazon or TripAdvisor would have much of a business model.

Defamation is more like saying the craft brewer X dry hops its new IPA with rat droppings without any factual evidence.

Fair point though with Amazon as a vendor you agree to having your products reviewed. Trip advisor review comments before they are published and regularly pull them if there are complaints by service providers. Amazon also regularly edit comments.

Defamation law is quite clear now and if the NHC openly allowed a damming review which impacted on a persons company or character they would have a case against the forum first and foremost and then the individual.
In fairness to our mods they let us get away with murder by comparison to other forums, maybe it's because relative to others we are still very small.
In a private members area the rules are different.

The reviews are there to allow our members to learn how to not brew shit beer or spend their money on poor quality products, we are not a public consumer beer champion, even though we all do it, there are other organisations in the country performing that role.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/86b746c82e5092671fea6a1a2fc0c199.png)

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 16, 2016, 05:49:19 PM

Quote from: Andrew on December 16, 2016, 11:56:28 AM

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 16, 2016, 11:16:05 AM
Putting a cap on the bottle extends the shelf life,  but it doesn't make it a preservative, the reduced iso hops protect the beer from UV light damage in the same way that brown glass prevents UV damage, they dont impact on shelf life.

Of course they impact on shelf life- do you think a beer made with natural hops and packaged in green glass would last as long as Heineken?

Sorry Andrew but I still disagree , some brewers don't consider light struck a problem, the Mexicans for example and even Stella Artois is quite skunky. Tests have shown that consumers don't treat it in the same way as some brewers and many are happy with the taste.
Hops have been used as a preservative since the middle ages, but Pheeel's comment was " Heino doesn't stay fresh in a green bottle without preservatives. Corona in bottles makes me shudder just thinking about it"
This is suggesting that a preservative like sulphites have been added to the beer. Heineken is brewed with reduced Iso hops, the hint is in the name reduced iso alpha acids, iso acids which are light sensitive are removed from the original hop material, the process also removes pesticides which are present in a lot of raw hop material. So if anything they are adding less material/preservatives than traditional hopping methods not more.
Shelf life is about collidal stability, heat  damage and dissolved O2 levels, since many breweries are happy with light struck beer from day one, it is not an issue regarding shelf life.
Corona use traditional hops so I don't know what his issue is with it.
Many "Craft" style beers are packaged in clear bottles particularly from the UK, the issue with these is that the beer is highly polished usually with pvpp, a type of nylon beads are added to the beer and removed after the pvpps have attached themselves to the polyphenol compounds within the beer. Some remove the PVPP with kieselgur which creates an ungodly mess and is dumped as landfill. I'd be more concerned about this than iso reduced hops to be honest.

PS CH had alluded to this earlier in the thread

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The skunking is the primary reason that I would buy a can of Stella over a bottle any day of the week, that said, whilst the beer is not as good from a bottle, the level of skunking is acceptable. It even comes from the boxes, so those bottles only get exposed to artificial lights in the factory, so skunking happens pretty easily it would seem.

I don't know no think any one could sue us for a bad review of their beer. There may be other reasons not to bash Irish micros though, even the shitty ones.

Quote from: CH on December 17, 2016, 01:30:17 AM
Defamation law is quite clear now and if the NHC openly allowed a damming review which impacted on a persons company or character they would have a case against the forum first and foremost and then the individual.

Not saying the forum should or shouldn't have beer reviews, or that the mods don't have a prerogative to be as conservative as they want in policing the forum but this is a gross oversimplification. The defamation act 2009 allows for a number of defences including honest opinion.

I don't think we've to worry too much about being sued. Irish micros have better things to spend their money on and I think if any review particularly annoyed a micro they'd just ask us to remove the review.

NHC has feck all money to sue for as well anyway, sure it's all tied up in the Cayman Islands.  8)

I was thinking that as well, and in fairness I think CH's idea for making the reviews about sensory analysis is the right one there's plenty of straight reviews out there.

Just to add to this, the boss in Jack Smyths had already read the beernuts review and he was more annoyed at his serving staff than he was at the beer review...he knows they're relative beginners at the beer thing and took it on the chin.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/675fdac1c290d361ed63f92279105781.jpg)

I'll sue you for insulting my asshole >:(

If anyone has any issues with any GBB bottled beer please contact me directly -  tom@galwaybaybrewery.com

If you have an issue with any of our beers on draught (or some other breweries beer) at a GBB bar, ask to speak to the manager & alert them to any issue & they'll take care of you. All our staff have done the siebel off flavour training (conducted at the brewery a few months ago), but things do get past them. Kegs kick mid pour & they have to leg it to the cellar to tap another. They wont be tasting the new keg, they'll go straight into serving again. All it takes is a leaky seal or spear coupled with poor stock rotation & you may have old or oxidised beer being served.

More often than not, issues with beer can be out of the breweries control once it goes out into the wild. I will make an argument for that below. However this does not cover piss poor brewhouse management with tragic flaws from poor sanitation, PH, yeast management, fermentation, phenols etc.

From our experience at our bars the issue we see time & again is oxidation. You can have leaky kegs going leaving the brewery that arent flagged (unless a seal is totally bollixed you probably wouldnt notice co2 escaping at the time of kegging). When c02 escapes, air replaces it. You all know the end result here. That leaky keg may sit for a week at the brewery before being delivered to the bar where it may spend another two weeks in the cellar before being tapped. You now have oxidised beer being poured. In an ideal world every bar tender would be on the ball & taste every keg but that isnt always the case. The same oxidised results from bars with leaky draught setups - faucets drawing in air, leaking lines/tapping heads etc. Some beer styles can take a few weeks to kick a keg, with leaks in the faucet or line you have air getting in. Leaky stuff doesnt impact volume selling beers as much as the bar will kick several kegs in a night, but the kegs that sit for longer will suffer from those leaks.

For beer to oxidise in the bottle all it takes is the cap to get a knock from another bottle while being put in the box, taken out of the box, put on the shelf in the offie etc. Bottled beer can take an age to sell in some stores (Ive seen two week old bottles of our beer beside 4 month old bottles on the same shelf!).

At GBB we do sensory before beer goes to the BBT for package. More sensory at packaging. We save bottles of every batch with some kept cold & some at room temp to see how our shelf stability is. We are lucky to have a great spec bottling line but most irish micros do not, & yet we still have occasional issues with beer in the wild. Hopefully as the scene progresses & matures all these issues will tighten up. Breweries will sell enough beer to afford a lab install & really focus on QA, shelf stability etc (we will do this in Feb 17), hire talent, buy hops direct from the farmer instead of through really poor quality wholesalers who sell the shit the big players wouldnt touch, bar staff & wholesalers on top of their game, Temperature-controlled supply chain etc.

Ireland has come a long way in a very short time, but we still have a very long way to go. Censoring members here from discussing poor beer is not the way for the scene to progress. Beer is science & its only through continued learning that we'll get the indigenous beer scene that we deserve.

Just had a batch of my own ruined by oxidation from a leaky keg, disgusted I forgot to do a leak test after sealing it up. Although I couldnt justify buying one for myself, at your scale you should consider getting a handheld ultrasonic leak detector. Ive used them at work for leak tests and theyre brilliant at picking up tiny leaks youd never hear yourself. Ill just have to stick to spraying Starsan soln and looking for the bubbles!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

This sounds like the next must have GB - links please!

This is the link for the ones I've used in the past ( http://www.alpine-components.co.uk/products/ultrasonic-detectors/ ).  You might be able to get cheap Chinese knockoffs on Ebay, I haven't looked.  They're very simple to use, and very effective.

I assume work owns these as they look fook'in (Dempseys favorite new word (used to be HUGH)) expensive!!

Yep, work purchase they aint cheap but I needed an ATEX version for work as well. Now I google them though I can see way cheaper options on Amazon and the like so I might do a bit of research, maybe even a Christmas purchase!

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Cheaper than a few squirts from a spray bottle filled with SS?

Quote from: Dr Horrible on December 19, 2016, 11:09:16 PM
Yep, work purchase they aint cheap but I needed an ATEX version for work as well. 

How much is not cheap?