National Homebrew Club Ireland

Apologies for not getting these up sooner.

All clubs should nominate 5 beers before judging Saturday. Please do this via PM/email to myself.
Clubs may nominate multiple beers from 1 brewer.
Scores from each beer will be tallied and the club with the highest combined score will be the winner.
In the unlikely event of a tie, medal tallies will be referred to.

The Club Cup will be awarded at the medal ceremony at Alfie Byrne's. 

Does it not make more sense just to use scores from best 5 medals won by each club? as otherwise my beer is better than your beer lark starts and impossible for clubs like capital to pick 5 from 50 but easy for GCB where clearly all my beers should be nominated :D

If you nominate and sods law comes into play as it usually does in judging and actual best beers don't win that were chosen at club meets that could be tricky.
In addition I don't believe any clubs have pre-judged their beers to rank or nominate?

I'm also still of the opinion that a weighted average should be used so if Capital enter 50 and NCB 10 but they both get the same number of medals then the standard of brewing is higher in NCB (Its only an example Capital) and they should win the cup. I think you would have to specify a min number of brewers though to avail say 5 or something.

Just some thoughts...

Taking 5 best scores from best medals favours both larger clubs and clubs who do well in the smaller categories though. That's what was discussed at AGM anyway. Yes, it's hard for Capital but being able to pick from 50 beers is still a good position to be in.

Club Cup has been one of those things that we've never nailed down properly though but I think this method is worth a shot.

Quote from: CH on February 16, 2017, 04:01:47 PMI'm also still of the opinion that a weighted average should be used so if Capital enter 50 and NCB 10 but they both get the same number of medals then the standard of brewing is higher in NCB (Its only an example Capital) and they should win the cup. I think you would have to specify a min number of brewers though to avail say 5 or something.

Suggestion against that was that newer members who are less experienced brewers may be encouraged not to declare for their club if they're likely to bring the average though.

Nothing wrong with the idea, but the late notice will make it quite hard to implement for the clubs this year, as the beers really need a taste off to be able to do this.

Not saying I have an alternative, outside of CH's suggestion, which probably makes more sense given the timelines involved. Just something to note for next year so we can improve.

Quote from: CH on February 16, 2017, 04:01:47 PM
In addition I don't believe any clubs have pre-judged their beers to rank or nominate?

This is certainly true for the Belfast entries.

probably too late for this year but for the future

you could do it like a medal leader board
Club A 3 gold 1 silver 1 bronze
Club B 3 gold 2 bronze.
Club C 4 silver and a bronze

use the top 5 medal winning brewers from each club. 
each club would have up to 25 medal chances, it will vary depending on people entries (could average this out if needed) but it gives a hard cap and theoretically gives a club with 5 people the same chance as a club with 50 people.

edit: changed max medal chances to 25.

The only fair way is to weight the scores by the size of the entries.

Why nominate?

Just evaluate the total club scores and divide by number of entries which you surely would have to do for the "nominated 5"

NCB have not assessed our entries!!

So in capital we should just tell the weaker brewers not to declare for the club then, is that it? That hardly drives an inclusive club, does it?

There is a fantastic atmosphere at the Capital meets, where knowledge is shared from simply amazing brewers to people starting out with kits, extract and what have you. To discourage those people from brewing and entering beers in competitions under the Capital banner is not what the NHC should be about.

It seems to me the "smaller" regional clubs are trying to force a split in the Capital group or something

Maybe a suggestion for next year - have a keyboard warrior cup?  8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Quote from: Beechlawn Brewing on February 16, 2017, 08:39:21 PM

It seems to me the "smaller" regional clubs are trying to force a split in the Capital group or something

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/ee943849614b55be42005b54aeffe6b1.jpg)

Lads try keep it to as best as constructive a commentary. No is trying to harm any club but are trying to make it a fair and positive thing as best we can.

Quote from: Will_D on February 16, 2017, 08:21:15 PM
The only fair way is to weight the scores by the size of the entries.

Why nominate?

Just evaluate the total club scores and divide by number of entries which you surely would have to do for the "nominated 5"

NCB have not assessed our entries!!

I'm against weighting it on the "total" entries cause I have seen it first hand people will put down the nearest club to them even if they have never had interactions with them which would skew result.
Or club reps should have to verify people submitting under their club.

Were the rules not decided months ago? I was at a Midlands meeting months ago where we were trying to decide who would be the five entrants. Bit late for changing it up now.

what are the final rules best 5 nominated beers from each club.

Yep nominated in advance by PM to IG for each club

Quote from: Beechlawn Brewing on February 16, 2017, 08:39:21 PM
So in capital we should just tell the weaker brewers not to declare for the club then, is that it? That hardly drives an inclusive club, does it?

There is a fantastic atmosphere at the Capital meets, where knowledge is shared from simply amazing brewers to people starting out with kits, extract and what have you. To discourage those people from brewing and entering beers in competitions under the Capital banner is not what the NHC should be about.

It seems to me the "smaller" regional clubs are trying to force a split in the Capital group or something

+1 all the way.

And further: the aim of clubs should be to encourage and help new brewers entering; the nomination process (moreover when announced early enough :P) allows less experienced brewers to go through an objective analysis of what they brew, which is invaluable learning, and give them the same chance of the best club brewers...

I think a club that has been investing on growing 5 new homebrewers to a decent level should deserve to win, if compared with a 1-man-club that won 5 gold medals... The medals and individual prises are there to recognize the ability of the singles :)

The rules seem to have been changed???? extremely late in the day. It was made clear several months ago that the club cup had to be decided on , using 5 DIFFERENT ENTRANTS from  1 club. This was decided  in order to make it more inclusive.
If you're now changing that then I think that's actually a mistake. ?????? Please rethink this.  Rules are best sorted out months in advance.... it took me some time to organise the Midlands Beer club to nominate 1 beer each and now I look a bit stupid for insisting on it. Come on lads let's start sharpening up on the easy stuff .

Also regards which cats are judged on which days should be cleared up to allow for 2 things.
1) people attending who might have entries but will now not know if they're being judged same day
2) & y DIPA needs a wee bit xtra time to carb. Tytyty in advance for keeping dipa cat til next leg if possible.

Quote from: LASERBOY147 on February 17, 2017, 08:00:46 AM
2) & y DIPA needs a wee bit xtra time to carb. Tytyty in advance for keeping dipa cat til next leg if possible.

Quote from: LASERBOY147 on February 17, 2017, 08:00:46 AM
& y DIPA needs a wee bit xtra time to carb. Tytyty in advance for keeping dipa cat til next leg if possible.

Are you for real?

In 5 years that's the first time I've ever seen anyone asking to have categories reorganised to give their beer the best chance of winning.. you do realise that specific judges are already lined up to judge certain categories?

Lads the club cup is always tricky to organise as is all parts of the comp.
The organisers have called it for this time and we need to respect their position.
Brand new team this year running and some really positive steps are being made which is better for all entrants versus when it was done in Bull and Castle 4 years ago.
New lessons are learned every year, it's always going to evolve and new stuff tried adopted moulded or dropped.
It's only a beer competition at the end of the day run by individuals giving up their own time so we should be conscious of that in our requests.
As regards advising what's being judged where, entrants should be showing up to both venues not picking and choosing if they really are that interested and passionate about how their beers perform.
Better still whilst there they could volunteer help in running on the day or get a feel for what's involved I know that help is always always appreciated as many hands make things run much smoother.
Best of luck to all tomorrow.

Quote from: Bubbles on February 17, 2017, 08:52:27 AM

Quote from: LASERBOY147 on February 17, 2017, 08:00:46 AM
& y DIPA needs a wee bit xtra time to carb. Tytyty in advance for keeping dipa cat til next leg if possible.

Are you for real?

In 5 years that's the first time I've ever seen anyone asking to have categories reorganised to give their beer the best chance of winning.. you do realise that specific judges are already lined up to judge certain categories?

I think he was joking. Relax

Perfectly relaxed. Thanks.

ah come on lads, that was clearly a joke

There's a lot of rage here today. Come on lads, it's Friday.

The change is too late though, there's no way to change it.

We understood in Midlands that it was 5 beers and each beer was from one different brewer. Since nothing concrete was announced, even though it was asked for, that's what we did.
We have our 5 beers picked. There likely isn't enough time to change that now.

Even if there was, I'm not sure we would want to. It's more fair at a club level to select only one beer from a brewer. It's likely not as smart a way to win the cup though. It means that we can't just enter 5 beers from a brewer we know is probably good for all 5 medals.

The same with us in South Kildare.........we chose one beer from 5 different brewers, at the end of the day its a stick a pin in a black hole, you never know how a beer is going to be judged on the day, what tastes nice to us as a club might be awful to the judges.

Its is supposed to be a bit of fun and we had a great meet tasting beers from all of South Kildare Brewers.

I have to say my head is melted at the moment lads, We are doing the best we can, whilst trying to work and live our lives! I have so much to do today to ensure tomorrow runs like clock work and then get up in the morning dust my self down from the hectic week and SMILE!!

Its a competition guys, lets be a club and enjoy it!  :) :)

One other thing. Can one of the organisers be sure to contact every club rep ASAP, as in the next couple of hours?

We can't rely on them all noticing this thread is here. They need to be informed now if they are to finalise their decisions in less than 24 hours.

Liffey brewers did same, 5 beers 5 Brewers. Good luck with all clubs :)

Just my thoughts - for NEXT year, why not try Will's suggestion? I feel using scores rather than medals gives a fairer result e.g. my super-double-coconut & mango stout may score a 42, but be beaten by a 43, 44 and 45; but it's still a damn good beer, and better than a beer that scored 36 but won a gold medal as there were only three entries in that category.

Quote from: Will_D on February 16, 2017, 08:21:15 PM
The only fair way is to weight the scores by the size of the entries.

Why nominate?

Just evaluate the total club scores and divide by number of entries which you surely would have to do for the "nominated 5"

NCB have not assessed our entries!!

Only problem with that is that some judges can have a significant point discrepancy in their judging, so I know judges that would award 38 and 45 for the same beer
Organisers look at judges scoring and judging sheets every year and they are given feedback on the day.
No medals anymore either for 3 entry cats they are all merged now.
Looking forward to your super-double-coconut & mango stout

We weren't aware of a one-brewer-one-beer stipulation and nominated 5 beers from 3 brewers. Can we get a final word on this and I can get back to the club as soon as possible about nominating 2 more if needs be.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Bubbles on February 17, 2017, 08:52:27 AM

Quote from: LASERBOY147 on February 17, 2017, 08:00:46 AM
& y DIPA needs a wee bit xtra time to carb. Tytyty in advance for keeping dipa cat til next leg if possible.

Are you for real?

In 5 years that's the first time I've ever seen anyone asking to have categories reorganised to give their beer the best chance of winning.. you do realise that specific judges are already lined up to judge certain categories?

woh woh woh there dude relax seriously. . No one's asking for the cats to be changed since I don't have knowledge of what cats are grouped for each day of judging. You just took a tongue and cheek comment that was specifically meant to lighten the post i made, and made it into something it isn't . Take a moment and think. Do you honestly think someone is asking for a judging day to be rearranged
. I'm pretty certain you don't genuinely think that at all.

I think the rules should be relaxed this year at least and that the 5 beers that are entered are eligible for the club cup.

If a club enters 5 beers from 3 different brewers then it shouldn't be penalised imo.

It needs to be clarified in plenty of time for next years competition though.

Quote from: helmet on February 17, 2017, 01:50:16 PM
We weren't aware of a one-brewer-one-beer stipulation and nominated 5 beers from 3 brewers. Can we get a final word on this and I can get back to the club as soon as possible about nominating 2 more if needs be.

We're also doing 5 beers from 3 brewers, based on the following in the OP.

QuoteClubs may nominate multiple beers from 1 brewer.

Some clarification would be great.

How about to make it inclusive for all brewers within a club, and to bring about some sort of weighting system, every brewer within a club that is entering the competition gets to put one beer forward for the Club Cup.   

For the beers to be valid for the Club Cup they must be brought to a meet and verified. This should get around the issue of new members putting down a club as their own, even though they have never been to a meet and know nothing about the BJCP and how the system works. The beers are then logged at the meet by a rep and then passed on to the comp organisers. The scores/medals of these beers can then be tallied and divided by the amount of entires per club. Scores are more straight forward but if you want to go with medals you could assign points to the different medal classes i.e Gold=3, Silver=2, Bronze=1.

Seems a fair way of including all brewers within a club and actually shows the quality of brewing across the whole club, not just 3 - 5 members of a club.

Obviously it relies on the honesty of the individual clubs in selecting and verifying the beers. If a member is entering a beer and it has been brought to a Club Cup meet it has to be put forward. Exceptions to this rule maybe if a beer is infected or it does not fit a BJCP style.

This shows the true standard of brewing within a club, it is the Club Cup is it not?

Original plan was 1 per brewer but as clubs weren't sure on the rules some nominated more than one. Guessing it's a bit late in the game now for clubs to change their nomination so we'll have to leave it like that.

Apologies for the confusion, between the nationals, BrewCon and my mrs booking me 9 days of travelling at a very inopportune time it's all crept up on us. Have thoughts in mind on how to help things go a lot smoother next year and nail the Club Cup down once and for all.

Bloody women

Capital are entering 5 beers from one brewer just to mix it up a bit

What happened to all that inclusive BS
Let me guess...
Glad to say GCB have 5 beers from 4 quality brewers, 2 of which are only brewing AG for 12 months

disclaimer: the following is not to be taken seriously. it's only a bit of messin...

i think all the other clubs should graciously decide to give the club cup to capital brewers.  because when we all think about it, and if we're honest with ourselves, they are really the bestest club of all.

next christmas i'm going to ask santa to let me be in their gang.


;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

 ;D We only have 4 beers from 3 brewers, since we didn't know there was a club cup can we nominate all 4 and count the highest 1 twice? ;D

Quote from: Bubbles on February 17, 2017, 02:38:34 PM
We're also doing 5 beers from 3 brewers

No shit, sure yous only have three members

Quote from: CC on February 17, 2017, 05:33:43 PM

i think all the other clubs should graciously decide to give the club cup to capital brewers.  because when we all think about it, and if we're honest with ourselves, they are really the bestest club of all.

next christmas i'm going to ask santa to let me be in their gang.


;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Best thing I've read on this forum in Months. Give that man a seat at the Capital Christmas Party

I'm sure there's one lad who'll have to disagree  :P :P :P

Lee Valley Brewing club entries pm

Lads
 
Just as an input to consider for next year , I'll give you the system that's used by the IBJJF to award "Best club" for Brazilian JiuJitsiu in Ireland . It's fairly straightforward , and I think most other competitive sports use a similar system .

IBJJF Approved competitions ( there could be multiple ones in a year , Cork Open , Midlands Open , National championships etc. )  have multiple weight categories and Open weight . Every competitor declares for a club .

Each club is awarded points for a competitor placing . 3 for gold , 2 for silver , 1 for bronze . Best club is the one with the highest total of points .
It's straightforward , if a small or large club has the best competitors , they score high in points ...

Consider it for next year please

But the point of clubs is not to have the best brewers... Rather to HELP the new brewers improve...

Quote from: wallacebiy on February 17, 2017, 08:34:11 PM
Lads
 
Just as an input to consider for next year , I'll give you the system that's used by the IBJJF to award "Best club" for Brazilian JiuJitsiu in Ireland . It's fairly straightforward , and I think most other competitive sports use a similar system .

IBJJF Approved competitions ( there could be multiple ones in a year , Cork Open , Midlands Open , National championships etc. )  have multiple weight categories and Open weight . Every competitor declares for a club .

Each club is awarded points for a competitor placing . 3 for gold , 2 for silver , 1 for bronze . Best club is the one with the highest total of points .
It's straightforward , if a small or large club has the best competitors , they score high in points ...

Consider it for next year please

Will leg-locks be legal?  ;)
Osss!

Quote from: phoenix on February 17, 2017, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Bubbles on February 17, 2017, 02:38:34 PM
We're also doing 5 beers from 3 brewers

No shit, sure yous only have three members

Yes dude, it's called quality, not quantity..

Quote from: Kevco5 on February 17, 2017, 09:20:26 PM

Quote from: wallacebiy on February 17, 2017, 08:34:11 PM
Lads
 
Just as an input to consider for next year , I'll give you the system that's used by the IBJJF to award "Best club" for Brazilian JiuJitsiu in Ireland . It's fairly straightforward , and I think most other competitive sports use a similar system .

IBJJF Approved competitions ( there could be multiple ones in a year , Cork Open , Midlands Open , National championships etc. )  have multiple weight categories and Open weight . Every competitor declares for a club .

Each club is awarded points for a competitor placing . 3 for gold , 2 for silver , 1 for bronze . Best club is the one with the highest total of points .
It's straightforward , if a small or large club has the best competitors , they score high in points ...

Consider it for next year please

Will leg-locks be legal?  ;)
Osss!

Only in categories over 5% 😂

Ossssu

Looks like it's going to the smallest county in Ireland assuming Cronans beers were nominated, this is getting exciting now.

Aah the liffey brewers have not shot their load yet :P.

Have or haven't?

Updated :(

I heard you fellas like coming from behind alright

 ;D

NHC goes to La La Land with Miss Universe

It's with a lot of embarrassment that I have to announce that an error was made in the calculation of the Club Cup winners. All nominated entries were tabled on a spreadsheet which automatically summed the total scores. The error occurred because one beer's score from Sallins wasn't entered onto the system and thus, wasn't included in that club's total score. Normally I would go over the scoresheets and winners near the end of the judging but I was in helping with the best of show judging so it was all a bit rushed when I got back out to the laptop. Will know for next year to get someone else to double check all figures. So with all that said...

The actual winner, with 179 points, is;

Wee County Brewers

Apologies to all, especially Liffey Brewers and Wee County, for the mixup. Will award the Cup at Club Night, BrewCon.

(https://im.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-1-3ca47db508.gif)

 :o :o

;D ;D

Jesus!

Amazing scenes

These things happen. Well done Wee County

And it's sentiment, graciousness and gentlemanly behaviour with responses like that that makes the NHC great.
Apart from the fact that Liffey will have won it back no doubt next year

I've a gold medal winner already brewed  ;)

Well done Wee county! :)

Happy days! Justice for the Wee County 5!

Quote from: helmet on March 10, 2017, 01:22:21 PM
Happy days! Justice for the Wee County 5!

Glad to see you guys get it. Well deserved. Congrats to one and all in Wee County.

Ye knocked it out of the part this year lads. Time for an interview for the frontpage on how ye're killing lads :)

Quote from: mick02 on March 10, 2017, 01:40:16 PM

Quote from: helmet on March 10, 2017, 01:22:21 PM
Happy days! Justice for the Wee County 5!

Glad to see you guys get it. Well deserved. Congrats to one and all in Wee County.

Thanks Mick, we're chuffed. We're a small club, but a tenacious bunch all the same!

Thanks all delighted with the win for the Wee County. I never imagined we would be winning something like this. It shows it's possible for any club to win.

So are us midlanders pushed down to third then?! (not that it matters!)

I'm glad the mistake was rectified. We were patting each other on the back and blowing our own horns since the scoresheets were released. It's a great acknowledgement for the club. We're all at home now doing up our business plans for turning pro. We're a small club but the amount of knowledge that we share with each other is great and we all edge each other on to become better brewers so we can catch up with King Crónán. Very flattering to achieve Best Club


...and now that our ego's are massive, the cup will be staying with us for the next few years too

Quote from: danger_zone on March 10, 2017, 05:44:54 PM
I'm glad the mistake was rectified. We were patting each other on the back and blowing our own horns since the scoresheets were released. It's a great acknowledgement for the club. We're all at home now doing up our business plans for turning pro. We're a small club but the amount of knowledge that we share with each other is great and we all edge each other on to become better brewers so we can catch up with King Crónán. Very flattering to achieve Best Club


...and now that our ego's are massive, the cup will be staying with us for the next few years too

Eloquent as always Stephen!

Well done Wee County!

Quote from: danger_zone on March 10, 2017, 05:44:54 PM
We're a small club but the amount of knowledge that we share with each other is great and we all edge each other on to become better brewers so we can catch up with King Crónán.

I have to second this. The amount of information that we share at each meeting about what we did wrong, etc make it easier for us to brew better beers. The different brews I've tasted (good and bad) at each meeting makes it a club which helps us improve. Best of all is the lads involved that make it easier to turn up to a meeting and taste to the all hours 👍

Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

Quote from: irish_goat on March 10, 2017, 11:25:47 AM
NHC goes to La La Land with Miss Universe

It's with a lot of embarrassment that I have to announce that an error was made in the calculation of the Club Cup winners. All nominated entries were tabled on a spreadsheet which automatically summed the total scores. The error occurred because one beer's score from Sallins wasn't entered onto the system and thus, wasn't included in that club's total score. Normally I would go over the scoresheets and winners near the end of the judging but I was in helping with the best of show judging so it was all a bit rushed when I got back out to the laptop. Will know for next year to get someone else to double check all figures. So with all that said...

The actual winner, with 179 points, is;

Wee County Brewers

Apologies to all, especially Liffey Brewers and Wee County, for the mixup. Will award the Cup at Club Night, BrewCon.

(https://im.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-1-3ca47db508.gif)

So what was the final outcome then? Midlands had come second, does that now go to Liffey and we are third?

I reckon so

Yes