National Homebrew Club Ireland

General Discussions => Competitions => Topic started by: DEMPSEY on March 07, 2017, 10:21:59 AM

Title: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 07, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on March 07, 2017, 09:45:15 AM
It might be a good idea to use mechanical pencils in the future. They're cheap as chips and don't get all blurry after a while.

I'm happy with the feedback overall, some solid advice. I won't be bottling off keg next year ;)
I bottled from keg as counterpressure and hit a 40 :)
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: fishjam45 (Colin) on March 07, 2017, 10:37:19 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on March 07, 2017, 09:45:15 AM
I'm happy with the feedback overall, some solid advice. I won't be bottling off keg next year ;)

What was the feedback with regards to your bottling from the keg?
It was in the back of my mind about 2 of my entries that I had bottle gunned.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: imark on March 07, 2017, 10:40:22 AM
Two of the 3 I filled off keg had oxidation remarks.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 07, 2017, 10:41:23 AM
Bottle gun loses alot of co2 and also is not best suited to long time storage of that said bottle. Some 02 will still be there to spoil possibly :-\
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: fishjam45 (Colin) on March 07, 2017, 10:43:13 AM
So bottle conditioning for comps is recommended?
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Simon_ on March 07, 2017, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on March 07, 2017, 09:45:15 AM
I won't be bottling off keg next year ;)
I did well with a keg filled beer but it is a bit haphazard getting carbonation right.
On the other hand I don't think bottle conditioning works for anything pale or clean (lagers / pale ales). It's alright for anything Belgian or dark or murky.

Bottling is the worst part of this hobby
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 07, 2017, 10:54:02 AM
Yes I'd say its better. If you have a good CP then use it if your sure but BC would be more guaranteed,unless....its a Lager maybe. :-\
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: delzep on March 07, 2017, 11:02:10 AM
Lot of problems with overcarbed beers and ciders this year. This is easy to sort using an online calculator so there's no excuse for it next year
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: BrewDorg on March 07, 2017, 11:49:28 AM
Also lost points for filling off a keg. No carbonation and poor fill. Down to my process though, I know where I need to improve it.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: LordEoin on March 07, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
2 of the 3 i bottled off the keg were commented as oxidized.
pity, they're nice off the keg.
I can CP fill nicely with PET bottles, but my glass bottle filling is a bit... agricultural.
Easily fixed for next year. I just need to decide whether to use my head or my wallet  ;D (or bottle condition)
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: mick02 on March 07, 2017, 04:12:48 PM
Yeah I had two beers that were under carbonated but there were two others that were fine. All filled from the keg. I always try to over carbonate for beer that I'm planning on bottling and it usually works out well.

Bottle conditioned beers taste a bit different in my opinion ... the carbonation is more prickly in the mouth. Maybe it's just me but I prefer force carbonation to bottle conditioning.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Qs on March 07, 2017, 05:09:51 PM
Well I know tasty filled his competition beers off the keg so we can ask him for tips at brewcon.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: sub82 on March 07, 2017, 10:00:34 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 07, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on March 07, 2017, 09:45:15 AM
It might be a good idea to use mechanical pencils in the future. They're cheap as chips and don't get all blurry after a while.

I'm happy with the feedback overall, some solid advice. I won't be bottling off keg next year ;)
I bottled from keg as counterpressure and hit a 40 :)

What counterpressure filler do you use?
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: molc on March 08, 2017, 08:28:25 AM
Bottled with a bottling gun on all beers. Some did great, others not so much. In future I think I'll bottle wheat based beers as they foam too much from the gun.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Leann ull on March 08, 2017, 09:36:56 AM
if everything is bitter cold including beer it works well.
My strategy was over to carb by 20% and have the keg at zero, and bottles in fridge, otherwise I ended just putting beer everywhere as co2 comes out of solution.   
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 09:58:17 AM
Quote from: sub82
What counterpressure filler do you use?
/quote]
I built my own
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 10:02:15 AM
When counterpressuring you need to gas and vent the bottle at least twice and fill with gas a third time before allowing beer in. You also need the beer higher carbed as you will lose gas in the transfer.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Leann ull on March 08, 2017, 10:36:10 AM
With Co2 so cheap as well, and cap the foam used to be my rule.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Pheeel on March 08, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 10:02:15 AM
When counterpressuring you need to gas and vent the bottle at least twice and fill with gas a third time before allowing beer in. You also need the beer higher carbed as you will lose gas in the transfer.

Why three times?
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: BrewDorg on March 08, 2017, 11:17:20 AM
CO2 is cheap, but a trip to Bray during working hours is not :(
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 11:55:06 AM
Quote from: Pheeel on March 08, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 10:02:15 AM
When counterpressuring you need to gas and vent the bottle at least twice and fill with gas a third time before allowing beer in. You also need the beer higher carbed as you will lose gas in the transfer.

Why three times?
Commercial bottlers do it to further remove air, its called double pre-evacuate. When you push co2 in it will drop to the bottom of the bottle and when you burp the bottle not all the air will be pushed out. Commercial systems will also use a vacuum pump to pull the co2 and air out thus creating an airless space for the co2 to enter the bottle. We don't have vacuum so best to apply a 2 or even 3 times before you put in the beer. Also let the gas settle a few moments so it is fully sitting on the bottom before you burp the bottle. What you do in haste you can repent at leisure ;)
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: mr hoppy on March 08, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 11:55:06 AM
when you burp the bottle

How do you burp a bottle?
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 01:10:13 PM
Quote from: mr hoppy on March 08, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 11:55:06 AM
when you burp the bottle

How do you burp a bottle?
Ye pick it up gently and hold it against your shoulder with the bottle neck looking over same shoulder and tap tap its body :P
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Leann ull on March 08, 2017, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: mr hoppy on March 08, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 11:55:06 AM
when you burp the bottle

How do you burp a bottle?

Wonder what aroma that would leave, top marks for mouthfeel tho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lteM_0Sp-sE
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: sub82 on March 08, 2017, 09:56:51 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on March 08, 2017, 09:58:17 AM
Quote from: sub82
What counterpressure filler do you use?
/quote]
I built my own

Interesting!
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Leann ull on March 09, 2017, 12:14:54 AM
What he doesn't tell you is impressive and all that it is in action, he is like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain pulling levers to operate it.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: Sorcerers Apprentice on March 09, 2017, 10:21:09 AM
One thing to be aware of is the beer/air interface. As the beer passes between your bottling bucket and heads towards your filling device, it is pushing air ahead of it. There is an exchange during this process, whereby the initial beer is oxidised by the air already in the pipework/tubing.
Commercial breweries get around this by charging this pipe work with de-aerated water, and will still dump all the products from the first revolution of the filling machine. In our case this means filling a bottle or two before your serious competition entry, you can always drink the first two yourself rather than dumping them 🍻. But I suspect this is where the oxidation is coming from,as a lot of guys only keg now, and fill maybe only two bottles for the competition.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: irish_goat on March 09, 2017, 10:28:26 AM
Split the oxidation posts out of the main comp thread as I think this is good enough for its own.

Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on March 09, 2017, 10:21:09 AMIn our case this means filling a bottle or two before your serious competition entry, you can always drink the first two yourself rather than dumping them 🍻. But I suspect this is where the oxidation is coming from,as a lot of guys only keg now, and fill maybe only two bottles for the competition.

This is what I do, I line up 3 bottles separate from the main batch and fill them half way through. The other bonus is you'll hopefully avoid a load of trub getting in which can happen with bottles near the start or end of the bucket.
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: LordEoin on March 09, 2017, 04:32:57 PM
That's exactly how I did some of them and they scored high.
You live you learn. That's the whole point of the competition in my eyes  ;D
Title: Re: Oxidation Issues
Post by: molc on March 09, 2017, 05:47:33 PM
Yup yup, I was using a bottling gun for the first time and probably made a mess of half of them. Bottling and wheat beers clearing too fast in the bottles screwed 3 of my entries over, so won't be making that mistake again.