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Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: auralabuse on September 12, 2017, 06:08:17 PM

Title: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 12, 2017, 06:08:17 PM
I have done 2 IPA'S, one with tap water....high pH, one with half and half RO/Tap to get a pH of about 5.3 in the mash and both tasted gick. I have one in the fermenter at the moment which I have added critic acid, gypsum and calcium to as per bru n water. Fingers crossed this one will turn out OK......either way, would anyone with an RO system who has made a hoppy IPA successfully care to share their process?. Its a style I really want to master.  I'm particularly interested in water chemistry, dry hopping schedule and anything else that worked for you to produce a hoptastic IPA.  Thanks in advance :)

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: TheSumOfAllBeers on September 12, 2017, 09:00:53 PM
You can make a good IPA with tap water. And you can screw up any recipe with messed up water treatment.

The water treatment can be the difference between a good IPA and a great IPA. But there are other factors that IMO make a bigger difference, like your IBU to FG ratio, your temperature control, your hop selection and supporting grist, and your oxidation controls.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: LordEoin on September 13, 2017, 09:14:21 AM
What do you mean by 'tasted gick'?
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: lordstilton on September 13, 2017, 09:37:48 AM
Are you leaving your water out overnight to let the chlorine evaporate? Are you getting a band-aid flavour off the beer?
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: TheSumOfAllBeers on September 13, 2017, 10:20:48 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on September 13, 2017, 09:14:21 AM
What do you mean by 'tasted gick'?

That's what I am thinking - its not a water treatment problem if you get to gicky.

There is a different problem here.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: nigel_c on September 13, 2017, 10:30:36 AM
A more accurate discriotion would help narrow it down.


http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: Simon_ on September 13, 2017, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: auralabuse on September 12, 2017, 06:08:17 PM
one with half and half RO/Tap
If you've access to RO why not just use all RO to rule out the tap water being an issue?

This guide is such a simple take on water treatment -  http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
tl;dr add a tsp of gypsum and a tsp of calcium chloride to all your RO mash and sparge water (20L batch) for a base pale ale profile and see how you get on.
I also add 1ml of lactic acid (from a Calpol/Nurofen syringe) to my sparge water to get the pH down to ~5.5
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 13, 2017, 11:14:09 AM
I should have elaborated a bit but the message seemed to be long enough already. Lordstilton, you hit the nail on the head, bandaid. I thought I had a Brett infection, so double cleaned and sanitized everything. Got it again so looked at the chloramine as the potential issue so I boiled the water with a campden tablet. Same result so I finally used full RO water with additions. This is in the FV at the moment so time will tell. I have never left the water out though, will add that to the process. My temp control is spot on. I have hot and cold control and have calibrated. In answer to sumofallbeers, I considered my recipe was the issue so bought an all grain kit which has consistent great reviews. I figure if I make that work I have my process down and can move onto recipe generation then. I have made loads of really good beer but always darker styles. Never had an oxidation issue with those so I think I'm OK there but open to any suggestions. Thanks for the replies lads, I'm determined to add a decent IPA to the list of brews

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: Qs on September 13, 2017, 01:21:00 PM
I use all RO with about 20g gypsum, 5g Cal Chloride and 5g Epsom salts for my light hoppy beers. Plus citric acid to hit a PH of about 5.3.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: lordstilton on September 13, 2017, 04:04:20 PM
You need to leave it out over night with lid off.. I usually put a Campden tablet in too... I always identify it when I get band-aid from my belch after taking a sup of beer were the water had chlorine in it... It was a mistake I made for a few beers when I first started brewing.. Drove me mad trying to eliminate it
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 13, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
Think I'm at the drove me mad stage. So I did boil the tap water with Camden so I might have got lucky. Also used the right amount and type of additions.  So if I get the off flavour again I will either leave the water out or total RO. The reason I didn't go all RO was it takes a good while for the expansion tank to refill and it was a spur of the moment brew. Anyway thanks a lot for the replies, exactly the type of info I was hoping for.

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: Ceedee on September 13, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
What do you use for sanitising? Is it bleach/chlorine based? If so, could there be sanitising residue?
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 13, 2017, 08:19:34 PM
Quote from: Ceedee on September 13, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
What do you use for sanitising? Is it bleach/chlorine based? If so, could there be sanitising residue?
No, use oxi for cleaning and starsan for sanitizing so should be OK there. Its a stainless steel FV too which never had bleach near it

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: LordEoin on September 14, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
try using bottled water and a full AG kit from HBC. They have some really good IPAs.
If that still turns out gicky you know it's neither the water nor ingredients.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 14, 2017, 10:27:05 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on September 14, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
try using bottled water and a full AG kit from HBC. They have some really good IPAs.
If that still turns out gicky you know it's neither the water nor ingredients.
Yeah lord eoin, I am using the HBC Apollo IPA for that very reason. So ingredients ruled out so that's why I turned my attention to water. If this one doesn't turn out right I will use 100% RO, boiled with Camden and left out overnight to be absolutely sure. My temp control and sanitation have been bang on for a while now. The fact that the darker style beers are turning out great, its all leading to water really

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: LordEoin on September 14, 2017, 03:42:49 PM
Water's an ingredient. The best way to turn your attention to it is to completely bypass your supply.
Even if you use 100% RO, boiled with Camden and left out overnight its still from the same supply. It's just easier to do a test batch with water from a completely different source. Then if the problem goes away, you know for sure.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: imark on September 14, 2017, 04:36:25 PM
You do  not need to use camden or preboil RO as it should already be stripped of everything.
Also, better to use phosphoric acid than citric for pH adjustment. Use brunwater or similar to predict the additions needed and use a meter to fine tune during the mash.
Have you broken down the ball valves you pass the chilled wort through recently? They get quite nasty after a few brews.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: auralabuse on September 14, 2017, 08:56:32 PM
Good point lord eoin, and imark, I had citric to hand but will make a point of buying phosphoric. I uses bru n water for the additions. Re the ball valve, yeah I took it all apart and scrubbed etc. Just had a smell of the co2 burping out of the FV and it smells damn good, hoppy as hell so looking good so far

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Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: lordstilton on September 15, 2017, 08:44:09 AM
as mark said its only tap water you need to leave out over night...bottled water and ro water won't have chlorine in them to evaporate so no need.
Title: Re: IPA, ro water and all that jazz
Post by: Qs on September 18, 2017, 06:39:21 PM
I use both phosphoric and citric and can't taste a difference in the finished beer. I think you'd need to use a fair bit to really taste it.