This is only floating the idea, but when we start charging for membership (likely to be €10) certain things will change. One of them is the group buys. There is the opinion that they should be limited to members only, and then there is the counter opinion that they should be open to everyone, but that non-members should pay more.
What are people's thoughts?
I would suggest that there should be a certain number of posts too. If you aren't an active member, i.e. less than 20 posts for example, then you aren't seen as an active/contributing member of the forum.
Is it possible to generate revenue from ads?
Have it ad free for members too.
pay your tenner - be a supportive member - enjoy the spoils !!
less complicated - support the cause !!!
to be honest if its membership only in group buys I am going to suggest 20, why? because I have saved over €200 from information I have directly received on the site or from group buys. The Hop buy alone saved me 20 and a further 20 from the group malt buy.
Somebody give me a reason why it shouldn't be 20?
I believe we should also have cards and our membership status next to our icon
I see where you are coming on the post thing but not sure that is equitable, but less that 20 posts should not qualify :(
Hi there
By all means charge a membership if you want I am not sure that making group buys exclusive is entirely necessary. I see the group buy as a means to get get the best deal on widget x by.leveraging the combined purchasing power of as many people as possible. excluding people based on membership would in my opinion reduce they.number of people you could draw support from. from past experience on doing a group buy organising a list of people, collecting the.money from people in a timely fashion and then distributing the widgets is the biggest problem that membership won't sort out. unfortunately a certain cohort of people will remain either lazy, indifferent or or disorganised meaning that things take longer than expected.
Declan
Apart from that stupid plastic carbonator I was trying to buy, every group buy has been a total success and totally oversubscribed, many having to have a second go.
I am struggling to understand why the financial benefits of group buys being organised by members like you and me should be enjoyed by people who are not contributors to the forum, the club or those not prepared to organise a group buy themselves.
As homebrew clubs go,we are unique in the success of our group buys. Moving on from here,I would like to see this as an incentive rather than letting someone make one post,and then benefit from a good group buy,only to disappear. Active engagement in the club is what what is required and so I would prefer to see a little commitement
Hi guys
I understand the.communal nature of the group buy and the desire to encourage participation in the club but I still would like to follow a free and fair access where we are open to new members. Don't see.how charging someone a tenner is going to make the group buys more successful. All for getting people to give back and might be an idea to get people to put that into concrete form.
Declan
I'd be in favour of charging €10 for membership, and then giving group buy priority to members, and then open up the lists to non members at a higher margin.
Why not charge a % on top of each group buy. That way you pay as you save, and the club is guaranteed a % of every group buy.
If the club took (for example) 10% of the savings of the group buy, by Ciderheads example the club would get his proposed €20 of the €200 savings he made last year.
Not all people brew enough to make those savings suggested by Ciderhead and might just join in the group buys for a piece of equipment or a top-up of hops each year. Charging them €20 to join in the group buys would be a disincentive to getting involved as it would cost them more than going to the homebrew store.
Pay membership, get all the privileges.
I don't think that people should be discouraged from joining on the basis of just getting group buys, the more the merrier.
What's the point of making it someway exclusive?
QuoteQuoteCharging them €20 to join in the group buys would be a disincentive to getting involved as it would cost them more than going to the homebrew store.
Do we want people who come here just to get stuff cheaper than the homebrew store?
Why not, it would inflate numbers and chances are that they will become useful community members with time?
Im all for charging membership.
Lets face it most of us on here have paid Beoir membership and received frankly nothing.
Ciderhead is loaded so he would say 20 - I think 10 is the obvious number to start off.
However, charging someone membership immediatley makes you accountable to deliver something in return.
So Ok we have the forum - and I'd imagine there would be some kind of members only area.
But in terms of group buys we would have to "Guarantee" (this is not the word) a schedule of group buys. I think we do this already but not officially. So we have the malt buys every e.g. 3-4 months 3 or 4 a year.
And then we can make the hop buy an anual thing.
There will obviously be limits on these - i.e. first come first served and members get priority etc..
Then whatever ad-hoc buys like grain mills etc would only occur on a per demand basis.
Now, obviously somebody has to take responsability for the above - which brings us back round to the debate of roles etc. And what to do when someone isnt pulling their weight.
So my point/summary is I think if you brew, you will definitely get bang for your buck. But, I think there is a few more wrinkles to iron out before hand.
QuoteQuoteCiderhead is loaded so he would say 20 - I think 10 is the obvious number to start off.
How about we charge ciderhead €20 and then €10 for everyone else?
Im sure he'd gladly give it too!
The strength of any club like this one is in the participation of members who engage with the threads,help answer new and rookie members questions,and generally advance the knowledge of the art of brewing to help all. :)
(P.S. I told Obama to say,"yes we can".any speech writing needed,I'm cheap. :D).
QuoteIm all for charging membership.
Lets face it most of us on here have paid Beoir membership and received frankly nothing.
I seem to remember getting some nice corny kegs through my association with Beoir. And didn't it bring us all together here? ;)
€10 sounds fair to me. But I do want a membership card for that.
I think €10 is a fair price to pay into the club, we're not all loaded like John :)
But back on topic, my feeling is that group buys should be available to members first and then made available to non members if we can't make up the numbers!
I support a mark up for non members.
I'm also in agreement with irish goats point on the fairness of the group buys, it would be great if there was a way of getting the info out to members, maybe a mailing list people could subscribe to or something? most people see there email quite often! Or possibly a text messaging system, but that's probably not cheap. And of course both would require a fair amount of admin!
QuoteWhy not charge a % on top of each group buy. That way you pay as you save, and the club is guaranteed a % of every group buy.
A tenner will do the trick.
Maybe a % discount for the one that organize the group buy if following "loftybush" suggestion.
QuoteQuoteIm all for charging membership.
Lets face it most of us on here have paid Beoir membership and received frankly nothing.
I seem to remember getting some nice corny kegs through my association with Beoir. And didn't it bring us all together here? ;)
€10 sounds fair to me. But I do want a membership card for that.
Exactly, it did bring us together and had nothing to do with Beoir, or at least it had nothing to do with the tenner you paid to Beoir - as there were plenty of people on it that werent paid members.
But anyway.... we digress. :)
Re group buy lists and fairness: fairest way is like selling tickets for a concert.
Say they will go on sale on such a date and time. Send mails out with plenty of notice.
Then on the date and time the thread is created, after that - first come first served. If you give enough notice and get it out accross as many mediums as possible no one can complain about not seeing it. Its an online community, people couldnt expect to be contacted via a non-online medium.
these are good ideas choices I guess - and has been said if you only participated in one or two Group buys through out the year -
you have made your money back -
but being a member is more than just being a group buy participant
there is an identity there and you can have a warm fuzzy feeling of being a HomeBrew Brother ( or Sister !)
and what about all those card carying discounts tube mentioned in another post for DIY Shops Pubs and Resturaunts :-)
seriously though the focus is not on group buys is it ?
I mean its the National HomeBrew club/association of Clubs - whatever
not the National Group Buy Club
But dealin with the Group Buys Options
1. Membership Only Group Buys option
2. Public Group buys with a members "discount" (higher margin for non members )
each kinda have their own issues I guess:
1. Membership Only
the first Come first served problem mentioned above, kinda unfair i suppose if you are a paid up member ?(or is it fairer than in option2)?
- but hey - this is a hobby site being run by hobbyists for hobbyists - were not talkin statutory rights are we ?and for the guys who do administer these things if that makes their life easier then that's the way it is right ?
2. Public Group buys option
the first Come first served - would this be as much of an issue ? or a bigger issue ?-
I would presume it would be run in such a way as - members offered first spots and then opened to the public Or would it be a free for all ??
I could see myself feeling a little peeved if I had missed the boat and a load o non members were sailing in her !!
in terms of the Group Buys I do think it should be part of the membership, for a number of reasons
1. exclusivity ( think facebook movie !!! )
2. strong motivation to join the association
3. Credibility -
GB's are free for anyone to organise - doesn't the fact that it is a member running it lend more credibility to the GB/Organisor than if it is a a non-member running it ?
these are just some ramblings of mine - whatever is decided will more than likely get my support - I am happy to be a (back seat) member either way and have my voice heard, I mean the work you guys have already put into the club/site/competition/group buys/tshirst ect. this year is awesome !!
there was also some mention about adding a percentage for the benefit of the club, even as a paid up member I would not have an issue with having a (small) couple of quid (I'm not Ciderhead !!)thrown in on top of the cost for a group buy - for example the Irish Malt Cost what @ 8 quid for 10 KG ?
I would not have had an issue with throwing in a tenner into the pot - would still have been cheaper than Retail cost - I mean to say - anything I've gotten in a group buy has eventually made its way to me free of charge through the express without me ever having to cross the bridge.
I know that kind of extra few pence/cents is not goin to make anyone a millionaire - I don't think we will be reading stories of a HomeBrewer in Kidare absconding to the Cayman islands next year in the Star
but surely it can only help with stuff like the competition next year ???
Well said NTB - I think the concensus is that people dont mind paying a little extra - and that is the point - we need to cover costs first - and then anything extra will go towards things like competitions etc.
Its just a matter of finding the best way to apply the charge - so its fair and not too much of a PITA from an admin point of view.
QuoteI think €10 is a fair price to pay into the club, we're not all loaded like John :)
But back on topic, my feeling is that group buys should be available to members first and then made available to non members if we can't make up the numbers!
I support a mark up for non members.
I'm also in agreement with irish goats point on the fairness of the group buys, it would be great if there was a way of getting the info out to members, maybe a mailing list people could subscribe to or something? most people see there email quite often! Or possibly a text messaging system, but that's probably not cheap. And of course both would require a fair amount of admin!
I would agree with you Padraic, that 10 euro is reasonable and also that the group buys be made available to members first through emails as this seems most straight forward or other means of communication and then to non members, and also that a small charge to non members for group buys is another option.
Unfortunately its hard to address johnny no posts whohas paid his membership.
For instance - if you look at half my posts - im just slagging dempsey off - so there is no substance to them. So its difficult to go on post count.
Also there is the issue of time signed up.
We could have a system where johnny hundreds of posts gets more notice than johnny no posts. But if we do a group buy of malt every 3 months johnny no posts will know roughly when the buy is anyway. And could still beat johnny hundreds of posts to the button.
Its a tough one - we need a novel way to penalise johnny no posts - doesnt necessarily have to be monetary.
But what about people that just genuinely dont like expressing them selves ("They express themselves well enough when theyre looking for cheap malt" i hear you say :) )
Or people who just dont have the expertise to comment on newby questions.
But I know what you are saying - there are people who will use this place as a source of cheap stuff - Full stop!
I think you edited your post since i read it - or i missed the last bit.
Yeah, rewarding participation is probably better than penalising non-participation.
Quotedoesn't address johnny no posts who is in on every group buy.
Is there many of them ?
If you were doing a mailing list to members - could you have some kinda algorithm say :
For Each registered member ()
if Last Log in > 3 months AND number of posts , 20
Do not Send GB invite ?
I dunno - that's kinda a hard one to capture
Quotehalf my posts - im just slagging dempsey off
thats funny !!!
but in general - the guys on the GBs - kinda known to everyone at the moment right ?
i mean you can probably tell the Bargain lurker from the Shy guy right ? and also if there was a post restriction thingy - you can tell who the flamer/lurker or poster for the sake of it-or is ? (whatever the name is that those crazy kids use these days for it ) right ?
If you had a loose kinda set of rules - you could drop some -one based on them for more prominent members of it was over subscribed ?
QuoteMaybe a discount for everyone who has organised a group buy, written an article, organised a meet, etc to encourage better participation?
not sure on that one - One of the things i enjoy about this club is the fact that I am a non organizing member ( I have had a fear of asking for access to those internal places for fear of the jobs tube might send my way !!)
I guess what I am saying is it is nice to be a part of something that I am not actually responsible for if you get me - ( like my rant on software in a previous post )
I have enough actual responsibilities that this hobby is like therapy in that I can dip in - dip out do a brew - leave a brew - no pressure.
Like I said earlier - I have no proiblem throwin in an extra few bob on a group buy..... but .. I don't know how I would feel about that if it was used to subsidised the payment of some other dude who had organized a group buy in the past, maybe if a little was used to subsidize the main players in the GB it was being used for ?
oh wait .......
QuoteMaybe a discount for everyone who has ..... organised a meet
I did (help) organise the first South East HB meet up
scratch everything I said !! YES discounts on every Group Buy for those guys !! -I'm IN ;D
Quote
Ciderhead is loaded so he would say 20 - I think 10 is the obvious number to start off.
Cheeky bolix, you owe me 11.20, I'll be chasing you for the 20c now ;)
10 for Membership
10 to participate in Group Buys
To me this place is more about chatting to like minded people about brewing, its more about community. Group buys are great dont get me wrong.
Personally i dont like the idea of potentially splitting the community or alienating people. As soon as people start being pushed away more people leave and someone else starts up another site somewhere else eventually..... Isnt that where this site came from.
Right then here's my take:
1. Just because a member is new he shouldn't be excluded from the first group buy. If he turns out to be a chancer then we deal with that down the line. We were all new mebers at the beginning, remember?
2. Chancers, wasters and late payers or "Tub house flooders" can be blacklisted (privately).
3. Membership at €10 pa gives you the right to vote, and be privy to early group buy announcements.
4. As already we have Public/Private group buys: Leave these alone. Public goes out to all ( but with a members getting a heads up ) Private goes out to members only and only goes public if we want "Johny 1 mail, 1 Group Buy" to pump up the numbers. "Stealth buys" go out (via PM) to the architects and other Active members ( organised a GB, Hosted meets, give TOG brewdays ) to reward their hardwork.
Marketing Oportunities:
Printed Clothing/Merchandise:
Can now be updated to reflect "Member", "Architect" or even "Master Brewer"
I would also like "Master Baker" for my "Beer bread"
And for the wa*k**s on the forum Master Ba***
I also dont think we should exclude people that dont post alot. People get busy and have lives out of here. Some people also just like to browse. I dont see anything wrong with that. They dont do any harm to those that do post alot.
I dont see a problem with people only being interested in group buys. As long as they pay on time etc then thats what they want from the site. Again as long as they are not holding things up they arent harming anyone so whats the big deal. There are plenty of people who do like to post here, thats easily seen by the number of posts.
I agree on what you say about messers, a simple t&c sorts that out. Violate the t&cs and u are out.
If they are watching the site enough to get in there first then they should be able to order.
I chat to people here because i enjoy it, i learn new things and hope to help others not repeat my mistakes. I've met new people i wouldnt have met had i not been posting. Why should i be at the front of a queue for that?
With that logic only people that have organised a group buy should be able to be in them.
I suppose how do you classify people that only see us as a cheap shop and why?
Plus if someone is into brewing and getting a bargin is that a bad thing for the club?
QuoteRight then here's my take:
1. Just because a member is new he shouldn't be excluded from the first group buy. If he turns out to be a chancer then we deal with that down the line. We were all new mebers at the beginning, remember?
2. Chancers, wasters and late payers or "Tub house flooders" can be blacklisted (privately).
3. Membership at €10 pa gives you the right to vote, and be privy to early group buy announcements.
4. As already we have Public/Private group buys: Leave these alone. Public goes out to all ( but with a members getting a heads up ) Private goes out to members only and only goes public if we want "Johny 1 mail, 1 Group Buy" to pump up the numbers. "Stealth buys" go out (via PM) to the architects and other Active members ( organised a GB, Hosted meets, give TOG brewdays ) to reward their hardwork.
Marketing Oportunities:
Printed Clothing/Merchandise:
Can now be updated to reflect "Member", "Architect" or even "Master Brewer"
I would also like "Master Baker" for my "Beer bread"
And for the wa*k**s on the forum Master Ba***
Has anyone actually read this post??
Will's points are good,the private group buys are by way of invitation,where as the public group buy section is the place people can introduce new members to the system and how it works.
Ah come off it, €10 a year that works out at 19c a week
maybe you guys see things differntly - i have a limited imagination and tend to think in small ways .. so forgive me
q. are/have these so called bargain hunters been an issue on group buys ?
q. are you looking ahead as the site/club grows and anticiapating this issue ?
I guess I can see how the genuine dudes may feel a little but peeved by some dude just flinging their name down on the buys and never actually interacting in other ways
there seems to be 2 schools of thought here with varying degrees in both directions
1. members only group buys
--- with/without valuble contributions
2. public group buys
--- with/without valuble contributions
and the question.... whats a valuble contribution ??
tbh - i would not consider myself to be a valuble contributor - i post a bit -read every day - but apart from throwing out my opinions/inane ramblings i'm nothing more than a pest in need
depending on your vision for the future - I would say
make it simple....
register on the site - chat with dudes / dudettes
become a member - pay your dues to participate in the wares - how you administer rungs on the ladder of a group buy is another conversation
like rukkus says - even if you only joined up for the group buys are you not lending weight to the power behind those ? even if you don't post that often ?
there are examples of sites that I have been on - non brewing that require you to have a certain amount of posts before you can do stuff - the problem was for me I hadn't much to say !!
for now apply the KISS approach ( keep it simple stupid )
if you find you need to fine grain it further in a few months then re address it
wills points are good - dunno do I agree with those stealth buys though - but then again - its down to how you weigh it up -how committed do you want members to be ?
I'm not goin to be an architect - I won't volunteer officially as a stewart for the competition on the off chance I dont get up -( would not like to let people down)
can't ever think of anything I'm gonna come across that would spur a group buy
but if there was a "stealth buy" on something fancy & I had a few bob to spare ....
here's a half arsed after thought - if you wanted to have real participation....
Group Buys at a "Regional" Club/chapter level - with each club/chapter allocated a certain quota ?
- also as an aside - I think having beer on tap in the house is dangerous ;D.. but man its such a novelty
.. I really should not be left within reach of one .. that and a laptop are a bad combination - not as bad as a power tool though
One thing we are all missing here is that the commercial suppliers of grain, hops, kegs etc are really not happy about our activities. Who can blame them we are depriving them of income!
We are facilitating significant commercial advantage by organising group buys and it has all been free.
All commentators to this post please advise what you have spent, and what you would have spent if you had to use retail operations, then ask yourself is €10 too expensive to allow you to qualify for that.
Tube has been the outstanding member in facilitating these group purchases, acting as a purchaser, warehouse and organising deliveries.
The problem is that nobody else in my books shows his ability or capability.
Without him there would have been no kegs, grain or hop buys, our three largest consumables.
Take him out of the picture and we have....?
I see other organisations like Beoir charging €10, and we offer twice as much support and information for homebrewers and yet some of you still believe it should be free :-[
Involvement in only one of the group buys would have saved you €10.
We haven't even touched on the goodwill and cost of those that facilitated your delivery.
I think its great that we are having this debate but as before I feel its better that we charge 10 for site access and 10 for group buys!
QuoteWe are facilitating significant commercial advantage by organising group buys and it has all been free.
you are indeed and I would be of the thought that the bigger the buying power of the club the more room their is for better deals when purchasing
or in the grand scheme of things when it comes to purchasing is it that much of a big deal for the sellers ? I'm thinking in terms of say NHBC buying in a few tonnes of grain ervery 3 - 4 months compared to Diagio and what not
so maybe thats a moot point from that perspective ?
But I would imagine if you are going to these suppliers saying - I can take 2 tonne - whats the price you could get a better deal than saying I want 1/2 a tonne
I know you were not looking at it from that angle - but anyway - does that make sense ?
QuoteAll commentators to this post please advise what you have spent, and what you would have spent if you had to use retail operations, then ask yourself is €10 too expensive to allow you to qualify for that.
I've spent enough to say to myself that I have saved enough too !! - A tenner is a worhwhile investment !!
QuoteTube has been the outstanding member in facilitating these group purchases, acting as a purchaser, warehouse and organising deliveries.
+1 on that the man Rocks !!!
QuoteThe problem is that nobody else in my books shows his ability or capability.
Without him there would have been no kegs, grain or hop buys, our three largest consumables.
Take him out of the picture and we have....?
yes our Bolivian Dictator is Da Man !!
QuoteI see other organisations like Beoir charging €10, and we offer twice as much support and information for homebrewers and yet some of you still believe it should be free Embarrassed
the support and info I have gotten from here has been fantastic - otherwise I would have a pile of equipment and probably be paralysed by the options available with no idea which to choose....
I did throw my tenner into the Beoir hat - simply as way of providing support and saying thanks because prior to this club launching it was where I got all my info
and it was simply for that purpose - I mean I was not expecting or looking for anything more for my tenner - I condsidered it a voluntary donation to help keep the thing going. Beoir did not force me to pay it
and I could have continued to get the info and support from them even if I had not paid ( I probably should note that when I say "them" I am acutley aware that "them" is "us/ye/you" )
QuoteInvolvement in only one of the group buys would have saved you €10.
I have said that myself
QuoteWe haven't even touched on the goodwill and cost of those that facilitated your delivery.
The Express is another amazing example of the Organisation power of the Club - I was explaining this to a guy recently and he could not get over how it works
personally I love that aspect of it - as I've said - anything I have purchased through the club has made its way to me without me having to leave the Town
which for a guy like me who doesn't travel much is fantastic, and I love the fact that whatever it is - equipment - ingredients has meandered through numerous counties, had sleepovers in other dudes sheds to end up in my hands through nothing more than the help
and goodwill of a bunch of people - most of which I have never even met in person !!!
QuoteI think its great that we are having this debate but as before I feel its better that we charge 10 for site access and 10 for group buys!
..... here is the rub .......
charging a tenner for site access - I'm not sure that's a good idea -
yes our Bolivian Dictator Is the Central Windstorm behind all of this and without whom we would not be even having this conversation
yes I have saved loads of money on Equipment and ingredients
yes I have saved valuable time and money through the Express
yes I have gained a lot of knowledge and (I would like to think) have made some buddies through the site/club
but..........
If I stumbled across this site now as a complete newbie and before I could even say hello in the introductions section - I was required to throw in a tenner
I dunno ... I'd probably more than likely head off to some of the free forums for information - I dunno who they are - jims ? Boeir ? some of the American/Aussie ones ?
and because of that I may not ever know what I missing out on and then the club itself has lost a potential member who may have contributed loads over time in terms of camaraderie - organisation and what not
( this is the hypothetical me - I'm not organised at all)
I guess what I am saying is charging a tenner for
site access could create the wrong perception and turn people away ? - It is almost like selling the Club as a service
Charging a tenner for Group Buys - you mean to qualify for all group buys - you need to throw in an annual tenner ?
yes I agree - Tenner Group Membership Allows you to participate in and organise group Buys within the Club, which in turn gives you, the member, access to club facilities -the forum, the express, the experience of others , -( probably the Club account for payment?) ect. ect.
Also throwing a euro or two on top of the cost for each participant is not a bad idea - participants still get a great deal - the clubs runs another successful group buy and tots up a few coffers for facilitating it - which in turn goes back into the club and benefits members in some way in the future - I could not believe that any member would begrudge the club a couple of euros on each GB
you could always leave the organizer of a GB exempt from the Club facilitation fee - and also open the GB to non members in the unlikely event the G.B. List be under subscribed ?
in which case the Facilitation fee could be higher than that of a members GB fee
I guess my opinion is that of an end user/ member really - a consumer I suppose - and i know you guys who are doing the actual organisation come at it from a different angle, isn't the idea to have a good crack with it and not take things too seriously, and generally swell the ranks of the club and promote the hobby ?
Quotehey ! Get Back to Work >:(
.. ... oops - I'm caught
Jaysus spend a few days working overtime and you miss out on all interesting posts. Here's my two cents...
The one thing no-one has brought up is what about those who don't live near a regional chapter/club. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who live's outside of a major population area. While sites like this and Beoir are invaluable sources of information, contributing to the organisation of group buys, competitions and clubs is probably not an option to me (and maybe others) by pure physical location.
I agree with newToBrew comments about being a back seat member, I'd happily pay a tenner for the info I've received from this people on this site and when they were on Beoir alike. But I'd feel uncomfortable if I had to constantly post just to prove my membership.
What about a 10% discount if you slag off Dempsey or The Tubster in 10 posts?
I'd say outline the "problems" with these fly-by-nights in one post and that might make it easier to define if it really is a problem in the scale of things.
I think €10 for the group buys is fair enough, but not just to access the site. I am actively trying to encourage people to sign up to the site the whole time, but you are not going to get many new members to the general site if they have to pay to get in. Although the group buy part is an important part of the site, it's not everything to everyone and the site shouldn't just be about group buys, although part of it could be. I don't see the general site growing if you start charging for that.
QuoteHow about access to say what is now Internal Operations, where policy is formed etc.?
Pay for access to it?
QuoteHow about access to say what is now Internal Operations, where policy is formed etc.?
How about voluntary sign-ups to support the club and group buys only for members, make it that simple and also only allow access to certain sections based on membership(tenner)?
I'd not overcomplicate it, and make some things benefits but only for members, it's that simple. This also does not make anything exclusive per se, a membership will get you the same rights as any other member. Non-members can still benefit from the knowledge and will see the benefits of paying a tenner with time.
I wouldnt have any issue with people having to pay a tenner to become members and access/priority for group buys etc.
But when you start charging membership, you do bring in added responsibilities. At that stage the club/association or whatever needs to clarify its committee structure - even if its a really simple one. And if collecting money make it so that people know where the money is going etc.
Now thats probably already in place but just to make it more transparent to the likes of me that are on the edges.
QuoteHow about access to say what is now Internal Operations, where policy is formed etc.?
I think that would have to be a given for members.
NewBier makes some excellent points, geography is definitely going to affect someones ability to get involved and homebrewing in the past was a lonely station if you don't have the likes of Beoir forums. When I started out people thought I was a bit nuts. Everyone is going to have different levels of input regardless of what the membership set up is. I for one simply don't have the time (pesky kids!!) to brew as much as I would like, never mind attend meetings etc. I would still like to be a member though, for the warm fuzzy feeling.
It will always be the case, with any organisation/club that there will be a small % of people will do most of the work and without them nothing would happen.
After reading through this thread, I thought it might be useful to hear from someone like me with a low post count.
I've been a member on this forum for a while, and I read it regularly, but for various reasons (some of which are shown below), don't post that much
- I'm relatively new to brewing, and so don't have a huge amount to offer regarding advice
- I don't particularly like having conversations on open forums where everyone can see and where it will remain till the end of time
- I'm somewhat shy
- I don't really have the time
That being said, I do hope to contribute as I learn, and I do have a couple of projects that I hope to document and share., but there will be times where I don't post for an extended period of time, and my post count will always be relatively low.
One of the reasons I like this forum is that everyone's very friendly and open, however, reading some of the suggestions on this thread, I fear there's a danger of creating a clique, and alienating new members, and people (like me) who for whatever reason, don't post much.
Regarding membership fees, group buy fees etc:
If you're going to have a paid membership (which I agree you should) you're going to need to give something in return other than a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing. You need to think about what this should include. Possible returns could be:
- Access to Members only section (what should this contain?)
- Larger Private message storage
- Photo album
- Group buy priority (see below)
- Group buy notifications (perhaps open to members first, and then non members a few days after)
Not becoming a paid member, should not stop you using the forum, asking questions, receiving advice etc. If you get people involved in the community, they're more likely to eventually contribute.
I do not agree with charging a fee to participate in the group buys. My personal opinion on this would they should be open to everyone (maybe though they should be vetted - confirm their mobile no or something - so they don't stiff the club), but paid up members should get priority, and non members should pay a slightly higher price. This would encourage people to become paying members but won't limit the buying power of the group buys by discouraging people to participate.
While I understand that the club needs an income to survive, and I have no problem contributing, a lot of the suggestions here have the club moving toward a more money oriented stance where nothing should be free. This in my opinion, will drive alot of people away, and destroy the spirit of the NHC.
Regarding post counts etc.
Limiting based on that , could again, drive away new people, or people like myself who don' post much.
Perhaps imposing slight limitations, such as posting images, or participation in group buys, for people under a month here, or with less than 20 posts (for example) to vet people or prevent spam, however, this should be waived if they pay for full membership.
This is just my 2c, and I've clearly plagiarised a lot of the ideas already mentioned.
I've probably forgot a few things I wanted to say, and if the above doesn't make sense, it's because I'm in work trying to discretely write that up
QuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
Would the €2 or 10% go to reducing the costs for the members on the same buy or would it be knocked on to the next buy? I think that idea will be an administrative nightmare myself.
QuoteQuote
Would the €2 or 10% go to reducing the costs for the members on the same buy or would it be knocked on to the next buy? I think that idea will be an administrative nightmare myself.
Good question! It would go into the club's bank account and be used to pay for something club related, like costs of running the competition etc. I think that would be fair and also the easiest to administer.
That's where the issue becomes a little murky.
QuoteQuoteQuote
Would the €2 or 10% go to reducing the costs for the members on the same buy or would it be knocked on to the next buy? I think that idea will be an administrative nightmare myself.
Good question! It would go into the club's bank account and be used to pay for something club related, like costs of running the competition etc. I think that would be fair and also the easiest to administer.
That's where the issue becomes a little murky.
Make it less murky. Make one of the perks of paid membership be that you get to see all the club's finances (simplified, not every single transactions)
QuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
That seems very fair to me.
I hope you appreciate I was casting no aspersions, just bringing up questions as they arise.
QuoteQuote
Ciderhead is loaded so he would say 20 - I think 10 is the obvious number to start off.
Cheeky bolix, you owe me 11.20, I'll be chasing you for the 20c now ;)
10 for Membership
10 to participate in Group Buys
Haha that told me!!
See you next weekend - I'll have the 20c framed AND I'll buy you a pint :P
...
I think the general concensus is that we dont want to charge people for the basic function of the site - so if anyone has any fears - I wouldnt worry.
And, we dont want to punish people who are shy or dont have the expertise to offer opinions.
I like Tube's proposal - And then to address the people who mess about (i.e. dont pay on time or dont collect in a timely fashion or dont organise to have it collected in a timely fashion)
- we just need to devise some rules so that they are somewhat black-listed or penalised the next time round - e.g. pushed down the priority list for the next buy. So that they will only get away with it once.
Ok, but we really didn't discuss the important issue which is how often is is expected that we would abuse Dempsey and The Tubster.
I demand this is discussed!!!!
QuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
sounds good - I still think you should consider throwing a 1 euro facilitators fee for each member participant and 2 -3 for non members on the Group buys though
( can't believe I'm trying to push you to take extra money from me )
I just think it makes sense - you could use it further down the line to buy in a bunch of hops or something and distribute it amongst members at Christmas or Subsidize a Regional club trip ?? - or have some kinda awards thingy for active members - u know - most epic Group Buyer of the Year - the most abuse flung at some one - that kinda jazz
Or just Ask the members - hey - we got X amount over the year - what'll we do with it ?
QuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
Very good and simple!
Would just suggest:
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations) and also the right to vote for committe member elections and policy decisions at AGMs/EGMs/online polls and the like
Just wanted to say I'm new here, only found the forum recently and only did my first kit brew in December. I haven't seen any group buys or been involved to date in any meetups or given any advise to anyone simply because I don't have the knowledge to do so (yet). So my post count is obviously nil to date. However, I have been reading some areas of the forum to try to pickup hints etc so I am hoping that I will find it to be a good recourse for me in time. For this I would have no objection to paying a small fee.
Likewise if there was a group buy of interest to me, I would have no issue paying a "buy in" fee on top of the group buy cost.
Just my 2c.
Following up on JerryMcCs post, Inote that while there was a flurry of activity in recent months on the group buy front, this seems to have calmed down (and not a bad thing).
Might it be an idea to calendar some group buys? Past, present and future? just a list, what, how many and how much?
From a pub in Barcelona... Bar International Beer on La Rambla
QuoteQuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
Very good and simple!
Would just suggest:
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations) and also the right to vote for committe member elections and policy decisions at AGMs/EGMs/online polls and the like
Personally I have reservations with non-members participating in Group Buys at all - we are not a home-brew shop.
I dont like the idea of storing equipment of anything else for people not associated with the NHC.
I believe we can get the numbers to make group buys work without making the group buys completely public.
There are a number of reasons to keep the buys 'in club' only.
Public Group buys (even with 10% or 2 euro more) are not a good idea.
That said - I do believe we can make group buys work in house and I think they are great. ;)
QuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
This seems perfect to me.
QuoteQuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
This seems perfect to me.
+1
QuoteQuoteQuoteProposal:
€10 membership. Gets you
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations)
2. Priority over non-members in over-subscribed group buys.
Non-members can access group buys at a cost of 10% or €2 more, whichever is greater, which goes to the club.
To become a paid member you must be a forum member for 30 days or more, and have at least 1 post which is not group buy related.
Very good and simple!
Would just suggest:
1. Access to the private policy-forming area of the forum (currently Internal Operations) and also the right to vote for committe member elections and policy decisions at AGMs/EGMs/online polls and the like
Personally I have reservations with non-members participating in Group Buys at all - we are not a home-brew shop.
I dont like the idea of storing equipment of anything else for people not associated with the NHC.
I believe we can get the numbers to make group buys work without making the group buys completely public.
There are a number of reasons to keep the buys 'in club' only.
Public Group buys (even with 10% or 2 euro more) are not a good idea.
That said - I do believe we can make group buys work in house and I think they are great. ;)
I have to agree with this sentiment(yeah agreeing with you Patridge, me too!)
I think membership should be compulsory takes all the other messing out of it and is a gentlemans club, now where did I put my smoking jacket and cravate
Ye should have been at the North County "Gentlemen of Leisure" Brewing Club meeting tonight.
The oak pannelling was illuminated by the gentle flickering of the crackelling log fire ( ok the gas effect was having a problem ).
The overstuffed Chesterfields were happy(!) to recieve the rosy cheeks of the over stuffed gents who sat on them and quaffed copious quantities of self made amber nectars.
After an hour or so, some Welsh git snook into this warm, PRIVATE, cozzy area and upset them all with some home made Seabury Scrumpy UGH!
He was quickly expelled with a firm boot up the arse throught the tradesmans entrance. He was to big to fit through the Welshmans exit hole ( cat flap)
Viva la revolution comrade Will
I would agree with a membership fee for the full access to the club which would include group buys, advance notice of and possible discount to events. The main site is a great resource without the buys and is a great enticement in to full member ship. A membership of €20 a year for full membership is very reasonable and I imagine it would attract upgraded membership just to support the club.
Thanks to every involved while I think I have only posted once. Reading what has been posted by other members has really help me.
I think only paying members should have access to group buys. Post count shouldnt matter. Some people are chatty work dodgers with high post counts. Others just browse the forum. If you pay your membership then you should have an equal say no matter how many posts you have.
Its really no different to a Golf Club. Two people who are both full paying members. One plays 5 times a week & one plays 5 times a year. They've both payed their membership so both have equal rights to play the course, enter the competitions, vote on club matters etc.
If you arent in you cant win. Simple.
Keep up the good work folks! Looking forward to meeting some of you at the B&C in March.
QuoteI think only paying members should have access to group buys. Post count shouldnt matter. Some people are chatty work dodgers with high post counts. Others just browse the forum. If you pay your membership then you should have an equal say no matter how many posts you have.
Its really no different to a Golf Club. Two people who are both full paying members. One plays 5 times a week & one plays 5 times a year. They've both payed their membership so both have equal rights to play the course, enter the competitions, vote on club matters etc.
If you arent in you cant win. Simple.
+1
QuoteQuoteI think only paying members should have access to group buys. Post count shouldnt matter. Some people are chatty work dodgers with high post counts. Others just browse the forum. If you pay your membership then you should have an equal say no matter how many posts you have.
Its really no different to a Golf Club. Two people who are both full paying members. One plays 5 times a week & one plays 5 times a year. They've both payed their membership so both have equal rights to play the course, enter the competitions, vote on club matters etc.
If you arent in you cant win. Simple.
+1
+1
You can set the forum that non members can see but not post in the group buy section. Something to consider.
Is the 10 euro being bandied about an annual thing or a once off?
Also, out of curiosity - what did the 10 euro membership to Beoir give? I was of the thought that my 10 euro would be better off spent on a few bottles of Irish craft beer than on a website
annual
better get onto to adverts so to flog some stuff
QuoteThere's a For Sale section here too ;)
We wouldn't be thinking of charging €10 if there wasn't a tangible benefit.
That was where my question about the tenner on Beoir came from....I couldn't see where it went and what it was used for
So I get a trophy and half price membership for entering the competition? 8-)
Savings Ive made on Group Buys so far:
20.00 euro on 3 litre conical flask (i still owe MAF actually)
19.74 euro on pale Irish malt
28.50 euro on hops
Total savings: 68.24 euro from just three group buys.
That does not include any postage Id incur buying from a home brew store so Im actually saving more. Plus you get to meet other brewers along the NHC express route.
Thats some bang for your annual membership buck!
Have you worked in planning in local government before ;D
To me its all duck or no dinner. No terms and conditions just 20 Snots,10 for access to all sections to website and to please please please fund a new forum, this one we have outgrown(me being kind), 10 to participate in group buys, simples!
Please put a poll up thanks
QuoteSavings Ive made on Group Buys so far:
20.00 euro on 3 litre conical flask (i still owe MAF actually)
19.74 euro on pale Irish malt
28.50 euro on hops
Total savings: 68.24 euro from just three group buys.
That does not include any postage Id incur buying from a home brew store so Im actually saving more. Plus you get to meet other brewers along the NHC express route.
Thats some bang for your annual membership buck!
And indeed if you were only involved in one of those group buys you would have profited by at least 9.74!!
QuoteIt's looking like the group buys vs members will work as follows: a paid member for 30 days with at least one non-group buy related post before you can participate as a member. Group buys start in the non-public group buy area (sort of like Reserved Group Buys is now) and stay there unless they are under subscribed in which case they will be moved to Public Group Buy area where everyone can participate. Non-members will have to pay €2 or 10% extra, which ever is greater. Non-members will always take 2nd place to members.
Sounds good to me
I have to say - not completely enamored with non-members participating at all in the group buys
- but surely we can leave all these discussions till after the competition.
Its shaping up to be a great day - but still plenty to do !
I agree. Where is the incentive to pay your annual membership then if you can just pay an extra 2 euro or 10% on the group buy total? You pretty much have the same access to group buys as the person who payed their annual sub to support the club. You cant have it every way.
Thats like golf green fees having the same playing rights as full paying members in a golf club (sorry to bring it back to that again but both are very similar in structure) It wouldnt happen in a million years. Pay your sub & get full access.
like Tube says the Group buys are usually oversubscribed - so I guess in practice a GB would rarely be offered to non members to participate
so as regards the don't pay the members fee - just pay the non member rate - they are not getting the same access to GB's as members - rather waiting in the wings in the hope a GB is not oversubscribed
What are green fees as opposed to membership in a golf club ? - you get to play if none of the members are using it ???? ( not being smart - I really have no idea )
If group buys are over subscribed right now then why even bother allowing non paying members to have access? Its far easier to just have only paying members have access. At least that way its a clear incentive to pay your annual membership & support the club. A line in the sand if you will. Support the club -> get access to group buys. Dont support the club -> post & browse on the forum but no vote, no group buy no nothing.
QuoteIf group buys are over subscribed right now then why even bother allowing non paying members to have access? Its far easier to just have only paying members have access. At least that way its a clear incentive to pay your annual membership & support the club. A line in the sand if you will. Support the club -> get access to group buys. Dont support the club -> post & browse on the forum but no vote, no group buy no nothing.
That's a very insular approach, as it stands with the proposed model it would benefit the group where numbers need to be made up, otherwise it's members only, don't see the problem meself.
Quote.....get access to group buys. Dont support the club -> post & browse on the forum but no vote, no group buy no nothing.
I'm not sure what you mean by access -
(a) Don't get to see there is a group buy happening ?
Or
(b)Do not get invited to paticipate?
as far as I understand non members would have no vote
and then only have "access"/participation invites in the unlikely event that the Group Buy was Under Subscribed -
i.e. the GB actually needed the participation of a few more people in order for it to go ahead
so in a way it is like a little bit of "insurance" when running a group buy knowing that if the members don't fill it - there are other options than dropping it ?
QuoteQuoteIf group buys are over subscribed right now then why even bother allowing non paying members to have access? Its far easier to just have only paying members have access. At least that way its a clear incentive to pay your annual membership & support the club. A line in the sand if you will. Support the club -> get access to group buys. Dont support the club -> post & browse on the forum but no vote, no group buy no nothing.
And what if we need 20 to do a buy, but only 15 members are interested?
"Group Buys are always oversubscribed"
The fact that group buys have been over subscribed makes the whole undersubscribed group buy offer to non paying members a bit of a moot point.
Id use GBs as an incentive for people to pay their annual sub.
QuoteIt's looking like the group buys vs members will work as follows: a paid member for 30 days with at least one non-group buy related post before you can participate as a member. Group buys start in the non-public group buy area (sort of like Reserved Group Buys is now) and stay there unless they are under subscribed in which case they will be moved to Public Group Buy area where everyone can participate. Non-members will have to pay €2 or 10% extra, which ever is greater. Non-members will always take 2nd place to members.
This seems spot on to me.
1) Pay 10 to get access to the elements of the site and Full Membership
2) Pay a second 10 to participate in Group Buys
You can opt for the first one only but you have to be a member to participate in Group Buys
Aye from me.....put me down........I all for a membership fee and at 20 quid a year that comes back 5 r 10 fold on buys iyts a no-brainer.
There was about 15 euro saving on the 10kg bags of malt last week!
QuoteHow about this then. €100 membership, quarterly, and if you're not a member it's an extra €200 or 1000% whichever is greater.
I'm all for a nominal membership fee! 20 per annum is tiny fee and I think if theres a few bob left at christmas the organisers and runners and whoevers admin on nearly a full time basis should at least get the price of a meal and a pint r 2 as an honorarium or whatever u call the token of appreciation.
QuoteHow about this then. €100 membership, quarterly, and if you're not a member it's an extra €200 or 1000% whichever is greater.
I see you are making it complicated again
where do I sign up anything for a decent site which btw is coughing and farting again this afternoon?
QuoteQuoteHow about this then. €100 membership, quarterly, and if you're not a member it's an extra €200 or 1000% whichever is greater.
I'm all for a nominal membership fee! 20 per annum is tiny fee and I think if theres a few bob left at christmas the organisers and runners and whoevers admin on nearly a full time basis should at least get the price of a meal and a pint r 2 as an honorarium or whatever u call the token of appreciation.
At last a man after me own heart, watch your wallet around here Bren.
I heard membership and group buy was gonna be taken like the property tax at source ;)
keep it simply. give your first born to avail of group buys ;D
Quotekeep it simply. give your first born to avail of group buys ;D
I have a few spare if anyone is short :)
QuoteQuote
where do I sign up anything for a decent site which btw is coughing and farting again this afternoon?
We're being attacked by our enemies, again. Don't ask me who they are, you know who they are ;)
Damn Chinese Government, us and Apple [smiley=lipsrsealed.gif]