National Homebrew Club Ireland

There has been allot talk lately from people who post on the HOMEBREW forum about commercial beers so i taught  as an enthusiastic home brewer i would dedicate this brew to them, as i doubt they do much if any. Also as they describe there beers that they PURCHASE, id show how as HOME BREWERS we can make those beers at home with better quality.

I believe one of the best stouts out there is O'haras Leann Follain so i'm gonna do a double batch today with another home brewer as i find brew days are best way to learn how to brew. It should be picture heavy so bare with me.

Water is 100% RO. I will add additions to suit PH and water profile. They have hard water in this area as i'm not too far away but they do add Calcium to get that silky smooth mouth feel. I will add it to mash but might also add some to the boil.

Looking forward to the posts in this thread. Enjoy your brew day!


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Equipment all home made. Gas for step mash. And rims system keep mash steady(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/ad4d28000767e6f70aba0615022830b4.jpg)

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Lots chocolate

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c8f16aa0d9b32ff8f87ff7fdf5a79bdc.jpg)

Old lamp great for crush overfill(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/f0f3b8a80d033d9fd4b3a560136415db.jpg)

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Getting water ready for mash in these are steps

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/9cbfeb60c5af19ece1859ac7cd556fc7.jpg)

Additions to ro water(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/5311b469fe9f378e90e0233df19e8cf9.jpg)

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Milled

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/684fd5568a33948262f42fc12f701177.jpg)

Magic time(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/0622619006be0ddd2ccf70486c49b554.jpg)

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Smells great(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/6ca38151788050e7f7e420ea26c89211.jpg)

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Bang on 58 for 30 mins(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/e6e154356c7b9a6df82f6a07a196f46f.jpg)

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Calibrate ph pens or no point using them(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/68f1905fba75c72e4dd2da7a9d8bf664.jpg)

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Looks smells fantastic. Next step 65(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/ed2662bb1ed3ccdc6c311b151802d4ca.jpg)

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This and germs works great(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c240d6727890709240a290b86e7f0db8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/6f0851e76ec487f4932f1c42d5dc39b0.jpg)

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Happy with that. Back in a bit(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/30a23e8016f734cd92f815db9b5235c7.jpg)

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What was your grainbill?

72step(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/ee516fd6c96ec7d3831ac34b54b5c3f1.jpg)

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There seems to be plenty professional commercial beer experts on here who can detect slight Ibu...ebc...taste differences so while I help with photos I'm sure they can give the correct grain bill also

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Iodine test negative for starch so it's all converted(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/69bad607c62cf514f228eb0ac5d6e524.jpg)

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Recirc for 20mins to catch all those polyphenols and give clean wort. I know SA would have good teqnical description(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/6d0927305342007abb71cc01f88f8997.jpg)

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Transfare to boil(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/4f5b2382ac4a17de773f7cfe824c7eb8.jpg)

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Discuss next brew over a beer(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/d21b9b5e6a29ca6f48c338444121e151.jpg)

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Frambois 2015 thanks to Damien  from Liffey(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/ed29e5fe798b7b4aba9a6054daafdd81.jpg)

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Getting there. Indicator for pre and post boil volumes(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c81cabd87bc2f34207ca779f89ba8e20.jpg)

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Chicken feed and Dunkelweiss(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/66023edcb331667245bcac3ac5778051.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/fd3dd7a3f49b53841ddb26e6651aac47.jpg)

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Hops added 60 min(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c4c4ee4115b40a5d74f90264b5d05d03.jpg)

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Yeast Viagra. Nutrient and zinc. Also add wirflock G blend.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/436b244ed5997fcf2c62d4706c0196c9.jpg)

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Don't be scabby with yeast(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/e1fa7bf19380c6e45b43788d22cb5828.jpg)

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15min hips added with yeast Viagra. Water heated and left to cool for yeast rehydration. Time for another beer.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/3e161f95d15836d65cd1817d83c399b1.jpg)

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Quote from: Beerbuddha on September 22, 2018, 12:04:44 PM
There seems to be plenty professional commercial beer experts on here who can detect slight Ibu...ebc...taste differences so while I help with photos I'm sure they can give the correct grain bill also

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I hope I didn't offend by asking a question.
LF is a beer that shines IMO.

Recirc to sterilize pump etc(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/00099aacf5fd6124e273e4c50e82ce3b.jpg)

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Sterilize wort chiller(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/5823ff668412f75f8e19ae57c8b7ab95.jpg)

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Quote from: johnrm on September 22, 2018, 02:28:52 PM

Quote from: Beerbuddha on September 22, 2018, 12:04:44 PM
There seems to be plenty professional commercial beer experts on here who can detect slight Ibu...ebc...taste differences so while I help with photos I'm sure they can give the correct grain bill also

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I hope I didn't offend by asking a question.
LF is a beer that shines IMO.

Not at all man no offence. I just can't give grain bill. The reply was guys are experts at commercial so they can dig in with info.

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Grand(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/2a5e86165c8a2210a303e538cd540c00.jpg)

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Cooling to wort fermentation temp 22. Nearly there. Hard to take pics(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/bdb2cd376c1f8964d00df0a274d108fb.jpg)

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Dave will ferment his at 18c I'm going with 22c and compare later.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/bd99aa07d2ceb46aafe37999b533c2be.jpg)

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Rehydration temp bang on. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/42714063ed85c9820deb301b79e4964d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/3c13c6c13708f77d543b70c3ed4e7509.jpg)

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Great post. I love seeing people's brew days.
Great looking setup.

Looks good, if you truly want to mimic LF surprisingly a much hotter mash Temp is what they use in Carlow.

Grand(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/2d8973324c08665fe13119c80acd18e1.jpg)

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Quote from: CH on September 22, 2018, 02:51:27 PM
Looks good, if you truly want to mimic LF surprisingly a much hotter mash Temp is what they use in Carlow.

Now or in 2014?

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They have changed the formula after the investment but the M Temp has has been consistent for the last 4 years. I preferred the fuller bodied older version from 2-3 years back.

Nearly finished(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c90b24b0b491e4bccf7a878d82b9d2b5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/7d25ec4d401b10df75dd55f0f19b18c8.jpg)

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Mine goes to fastfermenter to drop trub then transfare to demijohns.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/cded675ba46d838d1726bc9846ab5635.jpg)

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Easy read hydrometer, is that available anywhere commercially?

Finished(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/c972f37d45a872ac48b93aa42ab588c0.jpg)

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Open to drain fill with hot water and pbw no carrying heavy buckets for me. Allow to recirc and rinse(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/68e4be1cf998a7edd6db555abf0f8af9.jpg)

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Cleaning done(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/1f9f4e2522e83c9a4b12ad7ba7518325.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/8bc855f2e19ce0a359d549554b3b589c.jpg)

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Hard to see but from here is trub. Gonna transfare in 30min

Last photo one I made earlier. Same pilsner just gonna dry Hop and compare.

Finished. Dave has wort going home he happy brewer also.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/afc53d6cdfc30ba4394b405ddfa30da0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/8ed29f3d21abc3df1b1256757433eeda.jpg)

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Quote from: CH on September 22, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
They have changed the formula after the investment but the M Temp has has been consistent for the last 4 years. I preferred the fuller bodied older version from 2-3 years back.

Hmm. Went with 2014 version

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Trub is dirty stuff. 1-1.5 litres trub then comes clean wort. Yeast is active so not adding bad yeast. No need to aerate with powder yeast as it has enough oxygen added during production of it. Save o2 for liquid or reused yeast(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/81056c1c3a10caea8c406b79f2bf3ce3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/cd99fc15d205b898881ad9b9a70aeff6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/4e2f668a5d286616c7d0848ee5e1bc22.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/af0b3f175d3f0ee742bd9d9682175973.jpg)

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Temp probe strapped to Side.... Blow off ready for take off. Job is oxo.
Now I can save fortune on craft beers and with savings invest in my hobby. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/6ef0a41f469eaedcc9dbeeab3dff11d2.jpg)

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Quote from: CH on September 22, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
Easy read hydrometer, is that available anywhere commercially?

http://www.stevenson-reeves.co.uk

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TY

Happy yeast bubbling away six hours or so later. Just to prove no aeration needed or breaking your back shaking a fermenter when using powder yeast(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/4324a95a5b2057c89d20e778b2fc4922.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/e0315d7213b80ecabd6b5ac1c6d39598.jpg)

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Yeast Viagra doing it's job. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/056906f7b44d350519a9092625657dd1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/3c9d9d38f1290ce91f8f9c4ba2582a4c.jpg)

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Hi BB,

always nice to see someone else's brewday.

What book do you have open at the Rogue Ales page? Don't recognise it? Cheers.
Tom

Cheers Tom it's all about the home Brew.

It's well made book and good instructions for all grain guys.

Some snippets(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/4c523a6c0ce7af9eaece529599583fe6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/738ad3171cb6d0847d7ddffafd5fc847.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/36d8f10adbcb8fe1ae48c4632331bc65.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/6deb9177eb35aec80e61851177c14be9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/a7f9b93653f90290e0d22bbbc80f5430.jpg)

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Now that's how to review a book. Thanks, that's going on the shopping list, just for the recipes.

Great write up BB, brewery is looking mighty impressive, some setup

Cheers Darren. All it needs now is some fancy temp control system. I will get back to that project soon  :( :D

Haha, no prob

Nice work, must get a beefy Stout on soon

Great write up, really enjoyed that. One of the best posts in ages...  Smashing setup. I'm tempted to document my next brew day to show how the other half live  :)

I was the other half not so long ago  ;)

As it's on the forum I went the extra stretch and got some facts together. I will do another comparison next week and see what moves.

ABV is 5.32 instead of 6.2 target. No idea why
Diacytal is 0.1554 ppm
Acetaldyhe 0.7288ppm

Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 04, 2018, 06:08:44 PM
Diacytal is 0.1554 ppm
Acetaldyhe 0.7288ppm

How are you measuring these?

I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab. I explained I was posting a from grain to glass post and it would be a change to get scientific view of whats happening and the time scale it takes to happen rather than a taste test from unqualified person aka Me.

Retest next week and see how low numbers go and when they are below perceivable threshold for style beer I will transfare to keg. I also hope to get photos of beer under powerful microscope and see if there are any wild yeasts or bugs in there. All I'm the name of homebrewing fun.

Any other taught on tests let me know before I ask again. I might do ibu. Yeast from fermenter after transfare under scope and check same yeast three weeks later and see how many cells dead.

Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 05, 2018, 06:34:15 PM
I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab. I explained I was posting a from grain to glass post and it would be a change to get scientific view of whats happening and the time scale it takes to happen rather than a taste test from unqualified person aka Me.

Retest next week and see how low numbers go and when they are below perceivable threshold for style beer I will transfare to keg. I also hope to get photos of beer under powerful microscope and see if there are any wild yeasts or bugs in there. All I'm the name of homebrewing fun.

Any other taught on tests let me know before I ask again. I might do ibu. Yeast from fermenter after transfare under scope and check same yeast three weeks later and see how many cells dead.

A yeast count on the slurry for repitching would be cool to see!

We are thinking like homebrewers molc  8)

FG is 1.016 and OG 1.060
So I should get 5.8 +-
The lab says abv 5.32.

I did have a pilsner abv done months ago. Beersmith said 4.5 but abv was 6.2. There is no question the lab is wrong.

Bigger issue now. Brewday went perfectly as normal  :laugh:
Dave is reporting ashtray from fermenter. I gave some to the wife who is my approved taster.....when I said ashtray she said yes..so this is first time for me. There will be off flavors in fermenter and they will go but no idea or experience of ashtray.....any taughts

Too high % dark grains?
Would it be tannic? What mash temp? Or mash time?

Caraffa iii will do that over 5% and will disappear over time. Certainly worth your while also to look at your elements, I think you said you had rims seen elements burn wort locally as it can't dissipate the heat fast enough?

The cure is to get yourself some vanilla extract and pour a defined amount of beer in a glass then with a syringe add a couple of drops and mix until taste goes and then scale that up to a bottle size and then to batch. Be careful though a little goes a long way.

65 mash and 72 main conversion. Did protein rest. Not tannins but maybe too much dark grains. What is the threshold % that can give this off flavors ? Again might go as still at D rest but no experience with it.

Great info CH. I will check rims again also for scorching. Again no issues before but first for everything in no expert

I've gotten ashy from build up on elements. Perticurly with dark beers. I had to dump 40L of RIS that was heading to a barell because of it.

The elements might have had build up but no black or scorching. The rims is clean. If it was burnt it would not be clean now. Maybe too much roast malts. No carafa was used. Last beer I made was pilsner and it's fantastic. So ratio roast...... If your not making mistakes your not trying.

17% roast malt in grain bill

Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 05, 2018, 06:34:15 PM
I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab.

Some friend with some lab! Has he access to HPGLC or what?

I don't know what that means Will. My guess is it's over the head of most people following the post so I'd rather keep it simple as in homebrew orientated. So as molc posted....yeast viability cell count to myth bust how long yeast lasts for in a homebrew set up. I'm lucky to have a contact help for the intarest of the post and to ask too many questions I might be an annoyance.....you know what lab technicians are like!

Quote from: Will_D on October 06, 2018, 10:11:29 PM

Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 05, 2018, 06:34:15 PM
I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab.

Some friend with some lab! Has he access to HPGLC or what?

High Pressure Gas Liquid Chromotography? I thought it was either gas or liquid, couldn't be both.

Guys......you seem like very well-educated home brewers. Do you have any information or experience that might help new to the hobby guys or more experienced ones like myself in relation to the post?

I think Wil is more of a chemist then myself. I work in a lab but i don't have access to any equipment that would be of any use to home brewers unfortunately.

You're lucky to access these tests yourself, most commercial brewers wouldn't i'd imagine. There would be a fair amount of work involved to the tester if the methods weren't already set up and controlled for the analytes in question. Does you friend run these tests routinely?

Just a few questions /thoughts to kick off a root cause:

Material
- high percentage roast (already discussed)
    - certain roast may have harsh aftertaste of used in high %
- issue with malt
  - could the barley have been over malted when supplied (unlikely)
- mis labelled malt
- temperary  bye product of fermentation

Method
- step mash
  - raising the temp between mash steps. Grain sitting on vessel bottom, while heat applied leading to localised overheating (was there any agitation during temp rise?)
- temp rise rate
  - how fast did the temp raise from first to second temp mash? And to boil (burner for the mash and elements for the boil?)
- build up on elements (already discussed - not thing of note observed ) elements are low density (guessing from pic - wattage?)


Environment
- fermentation temp inappropriate (unlikely if separate fermenters showing off flavour)

Equipment
- equipment (vessels, elements) with deposits/film on floor/walls/surfaces prior to brew
- pump components adding heat (unlikely)
- measurement equipment faulty/inaccurate (ie hydrometer in relation to abv) or not consistent (using different equipment to measure Og and fg)
- fermenter not cleaned/ off flavour from cleaning residue (unlikely if same flavour detected from different fermenters)
- plate chiller contains build up



Man
- used wrong malt (eg too high a % of chocolate)
- used burner at higher output than normal
- mis-read measurements (in relation to abv)
- taster is over sensitive to detected ashtray, (may fade with conditioning)

Quote from: Slev on October 08, 2018, 10:01:04 AM
Just a few questions /thoughts to kick off a root cause:

Material
- high percentage roast (already discussed)
    - certain roast may have harsh aftertaste of used in high %
- issue with malt
  - could the barley have been over malted when supplied (unlikely)
- mis labelled malt
- temperary  bye product of fermentation

Method
- step mash
  - raising the temp between mash steps. Grain sitting on vessel bottom, while heat applied leading to localised overheating (was there any agitation during temp rise?)
- temp rise rate
  - how fast did the temp raise from first to second temp mash? And to boil (burner for the mash and elements for the boil?)
- build up on elements (already discussed - not thing of note observed ) elements are low density (guessing from pic - wattage?)


Environment
- fermentation temp inappropriate (unlikely if separate fermenters showing off flavour)

Equipment
- equipment (vessels, elements) with deposits/film on floor/walls/surfaces prior to brew
- pump components adding heat (unlikely)
- measurement equipment faulty/inaccurate (ie hydrometer in relation to abv) or not consistent (using different equipment to measure Og and fg)
- fermenter not cleaned/ off flavour from cleaning residue (unlikely if same flavour detected from different fermenters)
- plate chiller contains build up



Man
- used wrong malt (eg too high a % of chocolate)
- used burner at higher output than normal
- mis-read measurements (in relation to abv)
- taster is over sensitive to detected ashtray, (may fade with conditioning)

Just on the above ... I would calibrate all your measuring equipment (weighing scales, hydrometers, thermometers) to make sure that the readings you're getting are accurate

Hi,
In the spirit of things do you want to send me a sample and I can measure IBU, colour, final gravity ABV and do some micro on it?

Philip

Allot to digest. Some good taught ideas all valid. As said maybe after conditioning it may fade. I usually don't bother too much with smells ect from fermentation but as it's part of this brew I want to feed all observations into the post.

I will look into all suggestions. I'm leaning towards too much roast malt as 17% seems allot. It was lower in recipe but colors did not match up when I imputed into beersmith so I added more roast. We will wait to see when it comes to bottling.
As for lab work I'm not sure about the answers to the questions. It is a hassle to get an already busy person to do the tests so I'm not pushing my luck with questions at this time.  I'm gonna ask about those test wicklowhopscompany first and if no joy I will gladly take you up on offer cheers.

I can look at the RCA if it's still at bottling and input replies  8)

I have moved jobs within work and haven't had access to hot caustic and give my usual plate chiller clean. This could be a possibility 50/50 I will investigate

Quote from: Beerbuddha on September 22, 2018, 02:56:38 PM
Grand(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/2d8973324c08665fe13119c80acd18e1.jpg)

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Is this a pic of your OG at about 1.057? (or was this when wort was warm)... Og of 1.057 with fg of 1.016 would give  abv similar to what the lab found

Quote from: Johnnycheech on October 08, 2018, 09:22:33 AM
I think Wil is more of a chemist then myself. I work in a lab but i don't have access to any equipment that would be of any use to home brewers unfortunately.

You're lucky to access these tests yourself, most commercial brewers wouldn't i'd imagine. There would be a fair amount of work involved to the tester if the methods weren't already set up and controlled for the analytes in question. Does you friend run these tests routinely?

Topical. This is an actual FDA warning letter to a pharma contract lab in August. scroll down to the "shared space with non drug operations ' section, just before the conclusion. Tis a bit amusing alright

https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm620002.htm

That couldn't be real, could it? Jesus that's one absolute cowboy operation if so. I didn't think that stuff could go on today as modern day controls and regulations are so tight, but this guy is actually manufacturing drugs, unbelievable. That lab should be shut down ASAP, before he kills people.

The fact he has a micro brewery in the lab (major contaminant) is worrying, but it's the lack of validated methods, proper controls and educated staff that is astounding me. They don't actually sound like they know what they're doing.

It is real, amazingly. Thought it might bring a bemused smile to anyone familiar with a gmp lab.

Quote from: Beerbuddha on September 22, 2018, 09:43:53 AM
Getting water ready for mash in these are steps

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180922/9cbfeb60c5af19ece1859ac7cd556fc7.jpg)

I could be very wrong but... Could BS have given  you a bum steer? :
The estimated gravity readings to est volumes shown in BS don't seem to tally.
My understanding (which has been known to be rearly correct) is to multiply pre boil gravity points by volume, and divide by desired gravity point to get the post boil volume  (gravity points = specific gravity X 1000. Also adjust volume to ambient by dividing by 1.04)
So...
With pre boil volume of 63.5 and gravity of 1.051, to get to a gravity of 1.059 post boil, the post boil volume should have been 54.8L.
A post boil volume of 57.3L would result in a gravity of approx 1.056.

I could be completely wrong on this. I have tried it on brewers friend calculator and biabacus software, giving similar results.
Have you had other brews where either the final volume or gravity varied from BS estimates?
Are there some adjustments made to your equipment profile in BS that would explain?
Is the BS formula different? (did it change from version 02 to
03?)


Reference :
https://byo.com/article/hitting-target-original-gravity-and-volume-advanced-homebrewing/

Attached is an excel file, just with gravity calculations.


(slow work day!)

Those Reeves Stevenson saccharometers are very accurate but must be used in conjunction with a temperature correction chart, it's called BS 15G, they charge a fiver sterling for the chart, I may have one somewhere, if I find it I'll post a copy. Alternatively the sample must be at exactly 20 deg C for accuracy, so an accurate thermometer is also needed. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/087bd37839217e1b8e2fd506d2cf4c5c.jpg)

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Here you go(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/4597ad5002cc3005d93a7a59938f9ae5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/d3ef39c3af3aa2ace59a0520eab68277.jpg)

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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on October 09, 2018, 01:21:06 PM
Those Reeves Stevenson saccharometers are very accurate but must be used in conjunction with a temperature correction chart, it's called BS 15G, they charge a fiver sterling for the chart, I may have one somewhere, if I find it I'll post a copy. Alternatively the sample must be at exactly 20 deg C for accuracy, so an accurate thermometer is also needed.
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Brewers friend also has a correction calculator that comes in handy  ;)

https://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/

Some very good discussions going on. The reason I taught abv was low is that I was sure it should be like 6% or slightly higher. I didn't keep my notes as usual  on the day as I had to brew a double batch and try take photos with running commentary which is not easy......... Try it some time.

I love the engineering part of the hobby and recipes are an after taught. I know some guys spend days researching it, I spent all 15 minutes adding the recipe to beer Smith night before and as recipe I was looking at had massive grain bill....efficiency ect I obviously didn't do perfect job. I remember saying to myself check that tomorrow before the brew but alas it was heat up water and get posting. I will adjust accordingly for the next batch and might spend twenty minutes on recipe  ;)

Gonna transfare to secondary Thursday so I will add photos of how I do closed transfare from fermenter to fermenter with minimum 02 pick up.  Pictures keep people intarested as much as the educational conversation so fair play to all who are adding.

Wicklow Hops company that offer still available if love take you up on it......if you can pm me details of where I can drop a sample to have analyzed that would be super. The more participants the better and more scientific observations the better.

Personally, I enjoyed the investigation.
Looking forward to more of your posts and pics. Has been very informative and a great follow. Keep it up.

For what it's worth, I suspect, that localised over heating on the floor of the mash vessel during temperature rises, due to the high concentrated energy input of the the gas burner may have resulted in a scorching of grist in small quantities.
I suspect your orginal gravity was 1.057 as shown in your pic at the time of transfer to the fermenter, with final gravity reported as 1.016 and an abv of 5.3%

But the other big question that I see, is the estimated post boil gravity and volumes stated by BS,  don't follow stated formulas, and calculations used by other calculators. This would throw a brewer off their targets.
Have folks found these estimates to vary from their own real world experiences? Perhaps, worth a thread in itself (i could be way off on this btw and a bit over dramatic, not really a big question. )

With my system I have found issues around post boil volumes and efficiency. I'd love to have my system on some sort of load cell for accurate water.....mash and boil volumes that would be the icing on the cake.

I will be transferring ale yeast Thursday but decided to see if I had good yeast cells in my lager yeast I recovered from fermenter two weeks ago and kept in fridge. I will also test a new pack powder yeast to see how many live cells in it.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/12fad073547524db65bbb3b7aaa17283.jpg)

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This is result of that yeast. No dead cells as they would be blue from dye. Allot nice big fat cells and many budding even after two weeks in fridge(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/a6c1d885f3f01eba5717ea64858c0967.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/c145f7d96723cbab73f0c0ff4c6a65ac.jpg)

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This is another yeast with dead cells in blue.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/d525fc1437ef7673a4a7043888c99134.jpg)

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Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 10, 2018, 01:47:19 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/a6c1d885f3f01eba5717ea64858c0967.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/c145f7d96723cbab73f0c0ff4c6a65ac.jpg)

You really need to put a NSFW label on that filthy yeast p0rn

 :D glad yeast getting some.

Quote from: CH on September 22, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
They have changed the formula after the investment but the M Temp has has been consistent for the last 4 years. I preferred the fuller bodied older version from 2-3 years back.

A bit wrong there ch, no formula has changed, fact

Yeast reproduce asexually so it's a case of "Sisters are doing it for themselves" as Eurythmics used to say

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Quote from: hassettbrew on October 10, 2018, 04:50:27 PM

Quote from: CH on September 22, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
They have changed the formula after the investment but the M Temp has has been consistent for the last 4 years. I preferred the fuller bodied older version from 2-3 years back.

A bit wrong there ch, no formula has changed, fact

So how come it tastes thinner? There must be a change in pale source used or similar? This isn't a tomato's don't taste like they used to thing either I've had this comment from a couple of different sources where we were discussing craft beers in the market from 5 years ago.

Also recently had the stout at the BJCP course and I'm guessing it's LF second runnings but they were all over the place depending on batch, from a fine representation of the style, to overly sweet syrupy nearly unfinished examples.

Yeah something has changed with process or quality with LF. I've stopped buying it, as it's not a patch on it's former self the last few years. Not the same issue either; sometimes too bitter, other times too syrupy.

Used to be my go-to Stout :((

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Was that Erythmics? Thought it was... anyway!

That yeast scope thing is CLASS! I have a put-your-eye-to-the-thing microscope, and I've always struggled to use it properly but I'm going to try again today, having seen from you what I should be seeing.

Also, seeing your sample, I'm going to take the rare step (for me) of not using a restarter for the yeast I collected three weeks ago. Might just dollop an estimated quantity. See how I get on! Just working out my water additions for a stout.

Quote from: Tom on October 11, 2018, 10:31:22 AM
Was that Erythmics? Thought it was... anyway!

That yeast scope thing is CLASS! I have a put-your-eye-to-the-thing microscope, and I've always struggled to use it properly but I'm going to try again today, having seen from you what I should be seeing.

Also, seeing your sample, I'm going to take the rare step (for me) of not using a restarter for the yeast I collected three weeks ago. Might just dollop an estimated quantity. See how I get on! Just working out my water additions for a stout.

Well I'm guessing that the collected yeast will take off better than the powder yeast.

Only downside of collecting yeast is contaminated if not done correctly. I'd say unless you have 20or so successful brews under your belt proving good sanitation then use powder yeast each time.

The photo of the yeast looks good but the 3D view through the glass is spectacular. The yeast was 100% viable. Again I will check a packet of unopened powder yeast after rehydration for viability.

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Yeah, I reckon I've about twenty or so brews done by now.

I only use liquid, anyway, I prefer the choice. That's largely why I collect, too, because it's pricier.

Keep posting your yeast research.

Btw, what kit was needed to do that yeast count and blue dye dead cell test? I seriously want it now!

There's an app for that - https://hemocytap.wordpress.com

I believe Dempsey bought a microscope that would be in the price range of a home setup but never seen his update on the equipment. If you can drag him away from professional commercial beer judging he might fill us in on the kit......im still in the market for affordable microscope

Quote from: Beerbuddha on October 11, 2018, 01:19:40 PM
If you can drag him away from professional commercial beer judging

Dempsey tell em about the Swithwicks we had in Kilkenny 2 weeks before they closed it down!

OK. So I don't usually transfare to secondary unless it's to add dry hops but as it's for the post sure why not give myself extra work.

So clean all parts for transferring from fermenter A to fermenter B. Rinse with water before you sterilize with starsan or you will get off flavors in beer and caustic in the cleaner will neutralize the starsan ineffective.

I am on a well water supply and if I add star San to well water it goes milky white making star San useless as my water is hard very alkaline.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/af2f4966a776bd6151a15c59f6453f18.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/95265039c170221034d1355a8c23e495.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/818c71e1fcf391287e5d16b395c440e0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/9da1b18cfacabedb571b9dbd61f15f1d.jpg)

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Again clean with caustic first as you cannot sterilize dirt. Rinse with water add star San and drain as much as possible as you are looking to reduce oxygen in transfare and any starsan water will have high oxygen levels. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/fa9f52a992dbd03db64434f0bc59bbdf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/b8c9b0c73b0c706cc80572bbe58821ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/2e27758f27d85a5781030d0617a874d8.jpg)

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So this is my set up for purging fermenter B with C02. Co2 being heavier I have it pumped in the bottom with pipe and released via top exit. As you put pressure into vessel you can see it's very clear and when you release pressure it turns milky fog. Do not give one continuous purge as it's just mixing co2 and oxygen. Purge few times allow co2 to settle bottom and oxygen to go to the top and vent.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/02f54bffd6a66547b335b29df70cfdf5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/e18b279e1eb0a0c53d4d502bb47d08a1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/31c1973340753d42c16ae683924c8352.jpg)

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So if you follow the pipe and tube you can see how I add pressure to one vessel that pushes beer out of that vessel via tube and into the other via hose and pipe. When I first start transfare I let co2 purge the line of oxygen and starsan then attach to pipe on vessel B. It only takes very small amount pressure to start transfare. You can then.let gravity do it's job. When you first do this you will get bored and up the pressure to speed things up but the top will pop of fermenter and you will learn to do this slow way. Be very careful as the glass fermenters can basically explode so avoid glass unless your confident. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/31db627680a31f4dd213a911db20513f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/78e285c70fb475f743551446b398a9f0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/422715cd405e18a36b1a485d7aaaaf74.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/3e317158d11eee11aac2310151fd2f92.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/c7d091c6efb2e8e36d4c02034fa369c9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/752a8f64e91bb69e2f6b7586bbce3c82.jpg)

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Again just to show how I do it I have a container which I add boiled ro water too and let it cool. Then place beside the fermenter I want yeast harvested from so it's at same temperature as yeast come harvest day.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/0bf18b7b986ac9b6769e56b80cc0db59.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/2f6220d56b6fec12b5fd51cca1313348.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/36e49af411e59e7d4f61d778c3b160e1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/854d23d62ff35a80512074f588b91188.jpg)

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As you can see the yeast at end vessel A has this water added and swirl. The water needs to be sterile and same temperature so you don't shock the yeast. Then clean....sterilize my collection container. Cheap piece kit from China thanks to S.A. for link and idea.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/e79a1ad58dbc5fe21bc3c8b89aeb22b2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/b6713dfcd814b3e42c1e21e8906c47b1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/f40ef65d6cfcdc5a2e97070d1f3ef9c8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/fab7b34a193cba9d68115afaa3b2786b.jpg)

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As you can see the heavy dirty stuff will fall to bottom and this will be dumped first. Then we can collect the nice healthier yeast from middle/bottom. This will take a bit more time and I will add pics later.

The ashtray taste has subsided so won't be issue I think. Again I don't take too much intarest of aromas etc coming from fermentation but as it's learning post I taught I'd add anything I notice so it's shown as normal.

If anyone wants to weight in with taught or comments feel free as I'm learning also.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/4ea6e9eb5fefaa6ee207900d6c9b9c04.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/ebf9a197c2e62ac8afd3cb05402b2735.jpg)

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Ooh link for the yeast filter thingie - never seen one cheap before...

Kicute Newest 1000ml Pear Shape Glass Separatory Funnel With PTFE Stopcock Laboratory Supplies School Chemistry Lab Stationery
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/ciZkBeli

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It's best to opt for the PTFE valve as the glass ones can have a very small hole and take ages to allow the yeast to flow plus they block easily, the PTFE tap can be drilled out easily if necessary, and it's easier to take apart for cleaning afterwards

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You could easily make up a wooden stand something like this
1PCS Wooden Separatory funnel Stand Rack Support 2holes or 4holes Lab Supplies Pore size 50mm
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/jK2ohOg

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I had linked to a 30cm stand but it probably would not fit the 1000ml flask, I'll measure my stand and link to a more suitable one

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It needs to be at least 50cm to allow clearance below for a collecting vessel(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/69f5b4ff8beace7cae8372b28c304528.jpg)

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Something like this is more suitable
52CM Lab Laboratory Retort Stands Support Clamp Flask Platform Set High Height For Test Tube Flask School Laboratory Supply
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bw7XlrdO

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Ye avoid glass valves too small. The outlet tube broke on mine very delicate. Gonna order another from above ptfe valve.
Just to finish yeast harvest. You can see crap at bottom collection jar from first few inches. Then collect nice clean stuff. I collect them in sterilized jar. You can see one I did few weeks ago in fridge settles lovely ready for a brew. For the cheap price on slow boat from China as S.A would say it's a must and one of my favorite bits of kit.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/332053d7cedb573c01a5aa1ae2c7dd5f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/505bbf6c087f35dba340f941850eb20a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/8a143e81359e8a19041cc9194f39695b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/b2b99721937908427c46308e04374d70.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/d2e059bb7cee38fcfcbe2aa96d4ed2ec.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/af648eebfca3018532b253ce36d94326.jpg)

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Ideally you should collect your yeast in a sterilised container with some sanitised tin foil as a lid (with a small hole to allow the tip of the separatory flask to pass through)  to minimise contamination of your yeast by wild yeasts present in the air(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/79b09de951eb3494232e4a0d6c734c21.jpg)

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Simple idea to add to SOP  8)

Nice one lads, thanks for that. Going into the shopping basket. Right now I'm just keeping the last 2L from the fermenter and putting it in a conical, then pouring about half back in on brew day. Being able to wash and separate a little would be great!

Agghh! Not more stuff for me to buy!!

It's the best cheapest bit kit I ever bought if that helps.  ;D

You don't even need to buy a glass separation flask. Use the cone from a soft drinks bottle.Cut the base off and drill a hole in the cap. get some small diameter tubing silicone works best as if you do a nice clean burr free hole you can push it in there without any sealant. If you use stiffer aquarium pvc a tiny bit of silicone just to make the seal good.
Simple bend over the tube or use a clamp to control flow.
For the base cut a hole in a piece of timber and again secure bottle with silicone to stop it tipping over. Another option is to use the cut base from another bottle. Use sealant to secure as you push cone into it.
You'll need to cut a hole for your pipe to come out of it.
Do a dry run with water before you put your precious slurry in it.
Best of all you won't cry if it falls over.

When it comes to collecting and reusing yeast, hygiene is critical, the diy separator would probably work as a one shot, to be disposed of after one use, but whereby we rely heaving on Starsan for sanitising, it really isn't up to the job of sanitising for yeast husbandry. Yeasts (both wild and cultivated) can survive in the low PH of a Starsan solution,  Iodophor is probably better as it kills yeasts, but heat is the best option
It can be a bit difficult to clean the glass separatory flask, but as with most things, the quicker it's cleaned after use the easier/better it will be, the advantage of the glass flask is that it can be sterilised in your oven the night before use, and allowed to cool down overnight.

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SA- interesting! So if I'm using conicals for yeast starters, best practice is to sterilise in the oven? I usually wash with oxy after use and sanitise with starsan before use. Would be good to know if that's not sufficient.

Very interesting posts regarding yeast separation and re-using. I went the different route of overbuilding starters for this purpose.
I think it's easier that yeast harvesting, although I've not done that. I also think there is less change of genetic drift in the yeast as it move through each bacth of wort.

For Overbuild I follow this proceedure

I will start with a pack of yeast and use Yeastcalculator.com to check for approximate yeast viability.
I then use the same calculator and work out the least number of steps to get to about 300B cells.
I will then make the starter to build the yeast. 100g of DME to 1 Litre of water. I will boil the DME for 2 - 5 minutes.  Cool to 20c and then add yeast to start building.
They first batch will be done after about 3 days. Then next steps will be quicker. 18 - 24 hours.
After each build, I drop the yeast into the fridge to drop the yeast, decant 90% of the beer on top and go with step 2 and then step 3 if necessary.
When all steps are done I will try leave 1 litre aprox of beer on top of the yeast. Let it come up in temperature a bit, swirl to mix the yeast with the beer and separate into 3 x sanitized jars. I now have 3 batches of yeast.
I will use 2, building with a small 0.5 liter starter the day before brew day and keep one for the next re-build.
This is a nice easy way of keeping 2 or 3 yeasts on the go for your brews. Any specialty one off yeast I will just buy and pitch, maybe a small starter, depending on the date. I also have a few sachets as backup.

Quote from: onesoma on October 16, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
SA- interesting! So if I'm using conicals for yeast starters, best practice is to sterilise in the oven? I usually wash with oxy after use and sanitise with starsan before use. Would be good to know if that's not sufficient.

I usually boil the wort for the starter in the conical flask and that sterilisers the wort and the flask. Wild yeast spores exist in the air around us hence sourdough starters. They will end up in your your cultivated yeast, and will eventually cause mutation, that's why you should limit the number of generations you collect and replace with a fresh batch of bought yeast from time to time, hygiene is vital to minimise the amount of wild or even cultivated yeasts in your batch. For example if you are collecting different yeasts eg US05 and Notty you can easily end up with a hybrid yeast if you're not sterilising properly between collections.

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Hi SOrry it took a while to get back lab has been very busy with propagating yeast.

Here are the results:
ABV 5.36
Present Gravity 1.01511 3.86 (plato)
Calories 50.86 kcal/100ml
pH4.46
IBU-38.9
Bacteria- small growth of aerobic bacteria and negative for anaerobic bacteria
Non Saccharomyces wild yeast- Negative
Saccharomyces wild yeast- Positive

Philip

No worries good complaint to have. I really appreciate you putting time and effort in. The more eyes the better.

I can't say my sampling technique was sound the night I took it but the bottle was sterile.

I had ph of 5.4 I think in mash does the sample ph sound about right?

With work and family I haven't had chanc to bottle or taste but I hope to get it done tonight after kids swimming lessons. Fingers crossed it was sample and not full keg.

So managed to bottle using counter pressure bottle filler. Kettle boiling water to steralize filler between fills. Purge bottle with three separate purges with c02 1bar. Then let beer flow in whilst reducing pressure in bottle until beer appears from relief valve. Then place in capper.... Wack bottle to cause foaming and purge any oxygen under cap and job done.

Beer is very nice lots flavor and happily my main taster can no longer taste ashtray taste as was in fermenter. Job done(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/906ce6e125af96c90c99d75c4b33242e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/8647c7e0bfbf3d168f6749e2bf80a04c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/96e13f37bb5b41b02306873dac52dd18.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/3fa23f1106dab5600b3ab16d84e2cb9a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/a932e7789e56aa3bf3cce94f41e03768.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/99bdaf8c1a23d5c4377a54d098d1a0c9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/177a0139d6c3d823910cfe15c7a35e9c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181105/7470a6096e3f857ca8d932ab1195d915.jpg)

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Never got my counerpressure filler to work without it covering my ceiling with beer :(

 Important you have the pressure gauge so you can see the pressure drop from let's say half bar to 0 before you remove the filler or you get the beer in the face. I bottle at 0degrees and over carbed to compensate for losses during capping.

"whack the bottle" so simple yet probably so effective, I'll give that a try next time to help purge when bottling.

Thanks for the tip.

Is that a metric or imperial whack?

Quote from: Beerbuddha on November 06, 2018, 05:44:27 PM
Important you have the pressure gauge so you can see the pressure drop from let's say half bar to 0 before you remove the filler or you get the beer in the face. I bottle at 0degrees and over carbed to compensate for losses during capping.

Any chance of a video? I think lots of folks would benefit ?

It a metric whack. Usually a clean 22mm spanner but it went missing.


Yes a video does the job. I had one if I can't locate it again I will make one up next time.

Video thanks to S.A. cheers. One I did earlier as blue Peter would sayhttp://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5be74b4605b96/VID-20181110-WA0012.mp4 (http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5be74b4605b96/VID-20181110-WA0012.mp4)

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Learnt from the best no doubt

https://youtu.be/__UZaG0tNKQ

If it gets you to end of 120 bottles beer to fill ........sure why not

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I have one and use it for comps but couldn't be arsed with 120 bottles, do you not keg?
Best way I found for counter pressure for meets is this fella and coopers or a large mineral bottle.

https://youtu.be/CCrfp8ha9Dw

I bottle from keg. Train hard fight easy.

As i live in sticks and most people drive to my house better to have bottles to give away. I also prefare to have four or so different styles beer in my fridge on beer night and not the hassle of tap....co2 pressure...etc etc. Think 180 bottles most I did in day

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Quote from: Beerbuddha on November 10, 2018, 09:19:32 PM
Video thanks to S.A. cheers. One I did earlier as blue Peter would sayhttp://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5be74b4605b96/VID-20181110-WA0012.mp4 (http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5be74b4605b96/VID-20181110-WA0012.mp4)

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Interesting. Thanks!