National Homebrew Club Ireland

As a follow up to BeerBuddah's informative brew day post (here - https://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/all-grain-brewing/leann-follain-brew-day-double-batch-double-brewer/) I figured that I would do something similar with a slightly different twist.

He mentioned in his post that he did not spend much time formulating his recipe so for this post I will be formulating a recipe and will be detailing my reasons for choosing particular grain, hops, yeast, mash profile etc.

I've got a Grainfather so pictures of my brew day are not going to be as exciting as BB's so I'll leave that side out completely.

OK so for anyone that knows me they know that my favoured type of beer to brew is a Pale Ale.

I'm going to talk about what I'm looking for in the beer and how I'm planning to achieve those results.

First off I've been drinking a lot of East Coast Pale Ales recently and that is the style that I'm going to brew.

I'll be brewing to BJCP guidlines for category 18B

For clarity these are the BJCP guidelines for this style.

QuoteAroma: Usually moderate to strong hop aroma from dry hopping or late kettle additions of American hop varieties. A citrusy hop character is very common, but not required. Low to moderate maltiness supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). Fruity esters vary from moderate to none. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.

Appearance: Pale golden to deep amber. Moderately large white to off-white head with good retention. Generally quite clear, although dry-hopped versions may be slightly hazy.

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body. Carbonation moderate to high. Overall smooth finish without astringency often associated with high hopping rates.

Overall Impression: Refreshing and hoppy, yet with sufficient supporting malt.

Comments: There is some overlap in color between American pale ale and American amber ale. The American pale ale will generally be cleaner, have a less caramelly malt profile, less body, and often more finishing hops.

I'll start with the malt bill. From the different sections the malt bill will affect the following characteristics ...

Aroma: Low to moderate maltiness, optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity)
Flavor: Low to moderately high clean malt character. Malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent.
Appearance: Pale golden to deep amber. Moderately large white to off-white head with good retention

OK so taking all of the above and combining that with the type of beer that I want to brew I will be using the following

Grain:

69% Pale Malt - Base Malt (will be using Golden Promise)
7% Flaked Oats - For head retention
17% Oat Malt - For that soft mouthfeel that is synonymous with East Coast Pale Ale
7% Melanoiden malt to add colour and additional malt profile

Hops:

2018 Galaxy (50g flameout, 60g dry hop)
2018 El Dorado (10g @ 10 minutes, 60g Dry Hop)
2018 Vic Secret (50g flameout, 60g Dry Hop)

Yeast:
Fermentis S04 @ 18C

Water:

I will be using tap water to make this beer. I am lucky that the water that comes from my tap is pretty stable as it is a single source and not blended therefor I have a certain amount of confidence that the profile is always in the same ball park. The water profile that I use is as follows ...

pH: 8
Ca: 22
Mg: 2
Na: 4
SO4: 30
Cl: 20
HCO3: 33
Total Alkalinity: 28
Total Hardness: 57

I want to get as close to this water profile as possible to help with that soft juicy mouthfeel ...

Ca: 140
Mg: 11
Na: 4
SO4: 75
Cl: 150


Mash

I am looking for medium body to support that juiciness that I am after. I don't know why but to me it feels as though a light bodied beer just wouldn't have the same effect. Maybe that is a future experiment.

I will be doing a single infusion mash at 67C with a mash out for 10 minutes at 77C.

Fermentation will be held at 18C for 7 days (assuming that terminal gravity has been achieved) and will then be racked to a keg.

I'm not worried about cold crashing as I am not concerned about clarity in this beer.

Another important part of this brew day will be the hop additions.

I've experimented with different hop additions in the past and my favoured approach is to add the first addition at 10 minutes left in the boil as my bittering charge and then add the rest at flameout.

Generally once I add my flameout additions I will stir constantly for 10 minutes before transferring to the fermenter. I use a hop sock that is wrapped around my mash paddle to make sure it is constantly moving around the wort.

I will be aiming for the low end in terms of IBU and am looking for about 30-35.

I also like to do a "first wort" where the dry hops are added to the fermenter when racking into it from the counter flow chiller (beware as this can sometimes get messy)

I am hoping to get this beer on in the coming weeks (not sure how achievable that is right now) and if I remember I will update this thread with some pics and commentary of gravity readings etc from the brew day.

If you decide to brew this and have it done before I update the post I'd like to hear how it went for you.

Mick

 Great idea Mick. Fair play.

Fantastic. Looking forward to this Mick to see if I can tweak my pale process a bit. Always interested in how people dry hop. I'm always underwhelmed by hop aroma in mine. That or I end up with hop matter in the keg which is unpleasant. Also find it hard to get a beer to clear after dry hopping though looks like you're not concerned about that for this beer.

I remember you saying in the past that you don't do any whirlpool or hop stand. You throw in your zero minute hops and transfer? Edit: You've said above you stir for 10 minutes now

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Always interested in how people dry hop. I'm always underwhelmed by hop aroma in mine. That or I end up with hop matter in the keg which is unpleasant. Also find it hard to get a beer to clear after dry hopping.

Do you treat your water? Makes a big difference in how the hop around/flavours come through.

Cold crash? Gelatine to clear? It really doesn't strip the aroma/flavours.

I've almost always managed to get quite a good hop profile in my beers. I think it's because I'm paranoid about making sure the hops are agitated regularly. When I dry hop I usually use a stainless mesh cylinder that is attached at the end with some dental floss. I usually pull at the dental floss about 2 or 3 times a day to make sure the hops are moving around in the beer as much as possible. I always think that dry hopping when the beer is a few points off terminal gravity means that any oxygen introduced by dry hopping is scrubbed by the yeast. Whether that's what actually happens or not is another thing but it helps my brain to think that this is the case. One I've finished with the dry hop I do a pressure transfer to a corny. Again I believe that this helps preserve the hop aroma longer. Your mileage may vary!

*edited for autocorrect

Quote from: pob on October 10, 2018, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Always interested in how people dry hop. I'm always underwhelmed by hop aroma in mine. That or I end up with hop matter in the keg which is unpleasant. Also find it hard to get a beer to clear after dry hopping.

Do you treat your water? Makes a big difference in how the hop around/flavours come through.

Cold crash? Gelatine to clear? It really doesn't strip the aroma/flavours.

I usually use 1 campden tablet in my mash water and another in my sparge water (the grainfather uses a lot of sparge water). I also adjust the pH using phosphoric acid and as whatever salts I need to achieve the water profile I'm trying to achieve.

I used to use gelatine for fining my beer but haven't used that in the last 15/20 batches

Quote from: pob on October 10, 2018, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Always interested in how people dry hop. I'm always underwhelmed by hop aroma in mine. That or I end up with hop matter in the keg which is unpleasant. Also find it hard to get a beer to clear after dry hopping.

Do you treat your water? Makes a big difference in how the hop around/flavours come through.

Cold crash? Gelatine to clear? It really doesn't strip the aroma/flavours.

RO water with either 1 or 2 tsp of gypsum and 1 tsp of cc. I've stopped using gelatine altogether because I hate the smell of it. I've played around with crashing and not crashing and can't figure out which I'm happier with. I've started syphoning into the out post of my kegs but it's problematic with loose pellet hops and nearly always get blocked.

Don't get me wrong. There is aroma there. I just want more.

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:40:52 PM

Quote from: pob on October 10, 2018, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:12:51 PM
Always interested in how people dry hop. I'm always underwhelmed by hop aroma in mine. That or I end up with hop matter in the keg which is unpleasant. Also find it hard to get a beer to clear after dry hopping.

Do you treat your water? Makes a big difference in how the hop around/flavours come through.

Cold crash? Gelatine to clear? It really doesn't strip the aroma/flavours.

RO water with either 1 or 2 tsp of gypsum and 1 tsp of cc. I've stopped using gelatine altogether because I hate the smell of it. I've played around with crashing and not crashing and can't figure out which I'm happier with. I've started syphoning into the out post of my kegs but it's problematic with loose pellet hops and nearly always get blocked.

Don't get me wrong. There is aroma there. I just want more.

I went on a crusade for the ultimate hop aroma a few years back and I achieved it in one beer. You know what the secret was? The freshest oiliest hops I've ever used. They were leaf hops and when I pulled them out off the packet my fingers were sticking together because of the hop resin. The beer that came from using those hops was the most aromatic I've ever produced. That is why I always try to use the freshest hops in my hop forward beers otherwise what's the point in brewing them?

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Quote from: mick02 on October 10, 2018, 04:21:05 PMI'm paranoid about making sure the hops are agitated regularly. When I dry hop I usually use a stainless mesh cylinder that is attached at the end with some dental floss. I usually pull at the dental floss about 2 or 3 times a day to make sure the hops are moving around in the beer as much as possible.

Very interesting. I normally chuck dry hops straight into the fermenter. They float at the top for a day or 2 and then drop to the bottom. Then I try and syphon out and that's where I've been hoovering up matter.  Next time I'm planning on syphoning through a mesh cylinder

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 04:48:35 PM

Quote from: mick02 on October 10, 2018, 04:21:05 PMI'm paranoid about making sure the hops are agitated regularly. When I dry hop I usually use a stainless mesh cylinder that is attached at the end with some dental floss. I usually pull at the dental floss about 2 or 3 times a day to make sure the hops are moving around in the beer as much as possible.

Very interesting. I normally chuck dry hops straight into the fermenter. They float at the top for a day or 2 and then drop to the bottom. Then I try and syphon out and that's where I've been hoovering up matter.

I used to do this but found exactly like you the amount of hops I had to deal with in the transfer broke my heart. If at all possible I try to use hip filters or hop socks

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Quote from: mick02 on October 10, 2018, 03:43:42 PM
I also like to do a "first wort" where the dry hops are added to the fermenter when racking into it from the counter flow chiller (beware as this can sometimes get messy)

Is this a single dry hop charge then or do you do a second at the end of fermentation (or a 3rd mid-way as well)?

Quote from: KDeath on October 10, 2018, 04:51:15 PM

Quote from: mick02 on October 10, 2018, 03:43:42 PM
I also like to do a "first wort" where the dry hops are added to the fermenter when racking into it from the counter flow chiller (beware as this can sometimes get messy)

Is this a single dry hop charge then or do you do a second at the end of fermentation (or a 3rd mid-way as well)?

Honestly I've found that I get very little from additional dry hop additions so I tend to leave them out. I've always found that one dry hop with up to 150g gets the beer where I want it. Also I find there is a tipping point in the first dry hop where extra hops don't really add anything. Again this is my observations you might have different results on your own kit.

If you're going east coast like NEIPA, then I'd do a day 2 addition to get the biotransformation - it really clouds up the beer but gives you that big juicy flavour and I think a good bit of aroma.

I've done a west coast IPA recently and just skipped that step and you really notice the difference - not bad btw, just less juicy and smooth.

Wouldn't Mick be getting the same biotransformation with the hops added while chilling?

Do you do anything with your crush when using malted oats? I've only used them once and lost a lot of efficiency, I think they may not have milled properly, do you tighten the mill for them?

Quote from: Qs on October 10, 2018, 08:01:55 PM
Do you do anything with your crush when using malted oats? I've only used them once and lost a lot of efficiency, I think they may not have milled properly, do you tighten the mill for them?

I do have to tighten the mill to get the oat malt crushed and even at it's tightest I still don't seem to get a great crush on the grain. They certainly do lower the efficiency

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Maybe I'll try it through my old corona mill, that might crush it a bit finer.

I'm going to give something like this a go anyway. I've most of the hops and grain on hand bar the melanoidin and I think I'll replace the s-04 with sacc trois cos I've that on hand too.

Quote from: molc on October 10, 2018, 05:29:57 PM
If you're going east coast like NEIPA, then I'd do a day 2 addition to get the biotransformation - it really clouds up the beer but gives you that big juicy flavour and I think a good bit of aroma.

I've done a west coast IPA recently and just skipped that step and you really notice the difference - not bad btw, just less juicy and smooth.

Interesting point Molc however I did some reading yesterday evening and I found a very interesting article written by Scott Janish which stated

QuoteIf you want to take advantage of biotransformation, which can lead to more of a rose/citrus/fruity aroma from the conversion of geraniol to citronellol, add dry hops early in the fermentation process while the yeast are still present and active.

This obviously on the right track in my original post.

There is a lot of information on hop extraction which you can read in his article here - http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-studies-hopping-methods-and-concepts-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

Haven't noticed the same reaction with chilling and dry hops. I normally also dry hop a day or two before it finishes fermenting.

Quote from: Simon_ on October 10, 2018, 07:52:22 PM
Wouldn't Mick be getting the same biotransformation with the hops added while chilling?

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Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 07:42:49 AM

Quote from: molc on October 10, 2018, 05:29:57 PM
If you're going east coast like NEIPA, then I'd do a day 2 addition to get the biotransformation - it really clouds up the beer but gives you that big juicy flavour and I think a good bit of aroma.

I've done a west coast IPA recently and just skipped that step and you really notice the difference - not bad btw, just less juicy and smooth.

Interesting point Molc however I did some reading yesterday evening and I found a very interesting article written by Scott Janish which stated

QuoteIf you want to take advantage of biotransformation, which can lead to more of a rose/citrus/fruity aroma from the conversion of geraniol to citronellol, add dry hops early in the fermentation process while the yeast are still present and active.

This obviously on the right track in my original post.

There is a lot of information on hop extraction which you can read in his article here - http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-studies-hopping-methods-and-concepts-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

I think I'm missing something in the original post, you have late additions but the rest just says dry hop, so can't figure out your timings.

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Yeah I think there is some crossed wires here ...

Anyway I believe that we are both saying the same thing only different?!?

Remember, if you dry hop during fermentation you'll need to transfer to secondary after about 5-7 days.

I like to let the beer condition in the fermenter and dry hop 5 days before bottling. For an added boost I  sometimes use a hop tea as the solution of the priming sugar.

With regards to the recipe, playing devil's advocate here but I would argue the oats have no place in an 18B American Pale Ale.

Quote from: irish_goat on October 11, 2018, 08:51:46 AM
Remember, if you dry hop during fermentation you'll need to transfer to secondary after about 5-7 days.

I like to let the beer condition in the fermenter and dry hop 5 days before bottling. For an added boost I  sometimes use a hop tea as the solution of the priming sugar.

With regards to the recipe, playing devil's advocate here but I would argue the oats have no place in an 18B American Pale Ale.

You may have a point regarding the Oats, if it does not fit this category then I would look to enter it in maybe 21B - Specialty IPA.

Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 08:44:43 AM
Yeah I think there is some crossed wires here ...

Anyway I believe that we are both saying the same thing only different?!?

Think so yeah :D

EDIT: Reread everything again. I'd split your dry hop into two and do one addition on day 2 and the other a day before your transfer. I find the first addition gives tones of flavour from the bio transformation and the second gives you the aroma.

So in the interest of science, I am going to brew the beer as per the initial post. Once it is pouring I will comment on the efficiency from the Oat Malt, the Aroma and of course the taste.

I might even use this post as a place holder and perform the same experiment but implementing Molc's suggestions and compare to the first brew day.

*Looks in fridge, sees all the same hops* So tempted to give it a go myself now as well :D

Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 12:21:50 PM
*Looks in fridge, sees all the same hops* So tempted to give it a go myself now as well :D

We should brew at the same time and do a comparison!

Well up for it, but I'd have a few tweaks for malt and yeast based on what's to hand and brewing schedule. Wouldn't exactly be faithful to the original recipe but same broad strokes

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Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Well up for it, but I'd have a few tweaks for malt and yeast based on what's to hand and brewing schedule. Wouldn't exactly be faithful to the original recipe but same broad strokes

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Done! When is your next available brew date? I'll see if I can brew roughly around the same time.

Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 12:58:48 PM

Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Well up for it, but I'd have a few tweaks for malt and yeast based on what's to hand and brewing schedule. Wouldn't exactly be faithful to the original recipe but same broad strokes

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Done! When is your next available brew date? I'll see if I can brew roughly around the same time.

Was planning a Baltic Porter 27th October but could easily slot this in instead :D

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Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 01:02:40 PM

Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 12:58:48 PM

Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Well up for it, but I'd have a few tweaks for malt and yeast based on what's to hand and brewing schedule. Wouldn't exactly be faithful to the original recipe but same broad strokes

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Done! When is your next available brew date? I'll see if I can brew roughly around the same time.

Was planning a Baltic Porter 27th October but could easily slot this in instead :D

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I was also planning a Baltic Porter myself in the not too distant future. In fairness I purchased the ingredients for it back in March and still haven't done it so who knows if it will ever happen!

Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 01:08:06 PM

Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 01:02:40 PM

Quote from: mick02 on October 11, 2018, 12:58:48 PM

Quote from: molc on October 11, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Well up for it, but I'd have a few tweaks for malt and yeast based on what's to hand and brewing schedule. Wouldn't exactly be faithful to the original recipe but same broad strokes

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Done! When is your next available brew date? I'll see if I can brew roughly around the same time.

Was planning a Baltic Porter 27th October but could easily slot this in instead :D

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I was also planning a Baltic Porter myself in the not too distant future. In fairness I purchased the ingredients for it back in March and still haven't done it so who knows if it will ever happen!

Yup that's how mine is going as well. Been planning it for about a year!

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Here's what I'll go with - basically splitting the hops in two, and using the yeast and grain I have to hand. Essence should be roughly the same though :)

Quote from: molc on October 12, 2018, 02:52:39 PM
Here's what I'll go with - basically splitting the hops in two, and using the yeast and grain I have to hand. Essence should be roughly the same though :)

Perfect. I will be interested in seeing and tasting the differences between them

Quote from: molc on October 12, 2018, 02:52:39 PM
Here's what I'll go with - basically splitting the hops in two, and using the yeast and grain I have to hand. Essence should be roughly the same though :)

Is that 1 day dry hop day after ferment starts or day before kegging?

1 Day before starting to crash for kegging - so probably 2 days total contact time. I try to turn the whole thing around in about 10 days. I throw everything in loose and then just crash it with the airlock sealed to keep O2 out.

Great post as always Mick.

I've been toying with different methods of late hop additions myself and how to get the best utilisation from them.  The hop spider seemed a good idea at the time but I've stopped using it, I felt I didn't get as much from the hops as when they were in direct contact with the wort loose in the boiler. Does anybody use a spider for larger hop bills?

Mick did you mean that you physically attach a muslin bag to your paddle when whirpooling?

What I've been doing lately for my flameout addition is dropping the temperature of the wort to 80, adding the hops and then stirring for a few minutes.  When everything appears to have settled in the boiler I'll turn on the pump and recirc into the boiler until the wort starts to run clear.  I've had issues with a lot of hop matter getting into the FV also so this approach kind of kills 2 birds with 1 stone - best hop utilisation and clearer wort into the FV.

Use your hop spider as a filter when pumping from the kettle to the fv. It's the only way I use mine

Haven't used my spider in months. Felt it was having a negative impact. Went back to hop bags again!

Quote from: fishjam45 (Colin) on October 13, 2018, 10:11:51 AM
Great post as always Mick.

I've been toying with different methods of late hop additions myself and how to get the best utilisation from them.  The hop spider seemed a good idea at the time but I've stopped using it, I felt I didn't get as much from the hops as when they were in direct contact with the wort loose in the boiler. Does anybody use a spider for larger hop bills?

Mick did you mean that you physically attach a muslin bag to your paddle when whirpooling?

What I've been doing lately for my flameout addition is dropping the temperature of the wort to 80, adding the hops and then stirring for a few minutes.  When everything appears to have settled in the boiler I'll turn on the pump and recirc into the boiler until the wort starts to run clear.  I've had issues with a lot of hop matter getting into the FV also so this approach kind of kills 2 birds with 1 stone - best hop utilisation and clearer wort into the FV.

I've gone back and forth with my kettle hopping. I used to just add them to the kettle loose but found I was constantly getting blockages in the filter when chilling to the FV so I then moved to using nylon bags in the kettle. What I do is wrap the draw string of the nylon bag around the bottom of my mash paddle and stir the wort. At least I feel like I'm getting more utilisation from the hops. I also think that agitating the hops in the fermenter helps with aroma.

I still use my spider with my big kettle and dont really notice a difference between using it and not tbh. Might just be me tohugh - everyone else seems to find a difference

Quote from: delzep on October 13, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
Use your hop spider as a filter when pumping from the kettle to the fv. It's the only way I use mine

I tried that and it caught nothing.

Quote from: molc on October 13, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
I still use my spider with my big kettle and dont really notice a difference between using it and not tbh. Might just be me tohugh - everyone else seems to find a difference

I'm in the same bot as you molc, works pretty good for me!

Going to do this at the weekend. Took my three month old Hazy Daze that I had kept back from a previous overbuild and put on a 2L starter Tuesday night before bed; looks to be pretty much done this morning so will split and crash tonight to be ready for Saturday.

Quote from: molc on October 25, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
Going to do this at the weekend. Took my three month old Hazy Daze that I had kept back from a previous overbuild and put on a 2L starter; looks to be pretty much done this morning so will split and crash tonight to be ready for Saturday.

I'll be going for it this weekend too

25% flaked oats always makes for a very slow sparge. *cry*(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181027/dee8ac6565c246faac58ba68ae430ba9.jpg)

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Any rice hulls or oat husks in there? Find they help things big time when it comes to sparging. Also help regulate temperature, but that's less of an issue with a grainfather.

Nope. My own damn fault. I milled the oat flakes as well - what was I thinking :P

Anyway, it's all tucked into the fermenter now and coming down to yeast pitch temp.

Rice hulls. If only there was an extra 40kg of them knocking around.

Will be brewing this tomorrow. Just going through the recipe, the grain and hop bill and my volumes.

Made some slight adjustments and worked out my water additions. Will be testing and calibrating my pH meter this evening and will set up the Grainfather with strike water and water additions this evening. I'll be in full flow by 09.00.

Not using as much flaked oats as you Molc so hoping to get through the sparge a lot quicker.

Will post some info during brew day tomorrow if I get a chance.

Aiming for O.G. of 1062

Quote from: nigel_c on October 27, 2018, 02:45:50 PM
Rice hulls. If only there was an extra 40kg of them knocking around.

I'd say you have to go travel far to find them

Quote from: mick02 on October 27, 2018, 07:38:25 PM
Will be brewing this tomorrow. Just going through the recipe, the grain and hop bill and my volumes.

Made some slight adjustments and worked out my water additions. Will be testing and calibrating my pH meter this evening and will set up the Grainfather with strike water and water additions this evening. I'll be in full flow by 09.00.

Not using as much flaked oats as you Molc so hoping to get through the sparge a lot quicker.

Will post some info during brew day tomorrow if I get a chance.

Aiming for O.G. of 1062

Hehe I went for an og of 1.050 and got 1.048. gas starting from the same guidelines how we've gone in very different directions :) I have a lot of big beers on tap right now so aiming for something a little more sessionable.

Since it's the same hop balance, it's going to be fascinating to see these side by side

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Quote from: pob on October 27, 2018, 08:05:08 PM

Quote from: nigel_c on October 27, 2018, 02:45:50 PM
Rice hulls. If only there was an extra 40kg of them knocking around.

I'd say you have to go travel far to find them

Not in the north county.

Quote from: nigel_c on October 27, 2018, 10:22:38 PM
Not in the north county.

Tee Hee!!

Quote from: mick02 on October 27, 2018, 07:38:25 PM
.....
Aiming for O.G. of 1062

Hit 1061. Happy enough with that. Slow enough sparge but other than that a flawless brew day

Went to add the first dry hop this evening - looks like the yeast is rearing to go. It was just a thin kreustan 24 hours ago :)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181029/9dddf73c8baa1df1e3a7844d5dfea0be.jpg)

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Looks good. What type of fitting is that on your fermonster? I've a plastic tap on mine but that looks better

Quote from: BigDanny84 on October 30, 2018, 09:09:35 AM
Looks good. What type of fitting is that on your fermonster? I've a plastic tap on mine but that looks better

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/ss-brewtech-racking-arm/

I use it for closed transfers to kegs.

Just checked my beer there and it's fully attenuated... 2 days in :o
It's tasting good bit it's missing that hop aroma, I'm thinking it was stripped during fermentation (racked from the kettle onto hops in the fermenter). I'll be doing a second dry hop to get the aroma I'm looking for. So far so good.

Quote from: molc on October 30, 2018, 10:05:12 AM

Quote from: BigDanny84 on October 30, 2018, 09:09:35 AM
Looks good. What type of fitting is that on your fermonster? I've a plastic tap on mine but that looks better

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/ss-brewtech-racking-arm/

I use it for closed transfers to kegs.

Thanks Molc

Finished at 1.005 which is much lower than I'd like. Lovely aroma, thin body, though carbonation will help with that a little. Prolly needed to start at 1.060 or higher to keep enough residual with this yeast.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181104/27bb660ac08310db39adb44c0a41c4e2.jpg)

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Which yeast was that? Did you expect attenuation near that? 

Quote from: Simon_ on November 05, 2018, 09:23:58 AM
Which yeast was that? Did you expect attenuation near that?

Hazy Dazy, so a three yeast blend. Can give upto 86% attenuation, which looks like what it got, even with a 69C mash. I thought the mash and water profile would hold it back more than it did - live and learn.

The finished article. Too bitter and lacking a touch of body, both which could he fixed with a different yeast and about 10 more points on the og. Tastes more like a fruity west coast IPA than an East coast pale ale as a result. Still quite drinkable and almost senionable.

How did it go for you Mick?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/24212ad608fd3285f36f89a924535ac7.jpg)

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Quote from: molc on November 18, 2018, 06:56:39 PM
The finished article. Too bitter and lacking a touch of body, both which could he fixed with a different yeast and about 10 more points on the og. Tastes more like a fruity west coast IPA than an East coast pale ale as a result. Still quite drinkable and almost senionable.

How did it go for you Mick?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/24212ad608fd3285f36f89a924535ac7.jpg)

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Mine turned out quite well but like yours it's a little too bitter to be an east coast pale ale. I'm happy to swap one for one if you want?

Quote from: mick02 on November 18, 2018, 07:29:58 PM

Quote from: molc on November 18, 2018, 06:56:39 PM
The finished article. Too bitter and lacking a touch of body, both which could he fixed with a different yeast and about 10 more points on the og. Tastes more like a fruity west coast IPA than an East coast pale ale as a result. Still quite drinkable and almost senionable.

How did it go for you Mick?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/24212ad608fd3285f36f89a924535ac7.jpg)

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Mine turned out quite well but like yours it's a little too bitter to be an east coast pale ale. I'm happy to swap one for one if you want?

Yeah sure - I popped some in bottles for swapping. Send me a message and we can exchange at some point :)

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So you've both said your beers came out too bitter for style. What would you change?
Move 10 minute additions to flame out?
Higher OG?
More residual sweetness?

Different yeast and higher og would fix it for me. It's just fermented out too much so it's not juicy.

Quote from: Simon_ on November 20, 2018, 10:31:24 AM
So you've both said your beers came out too bitter for style. What would you change?
Move 10 minute additions to flame out?
Higher OG?
More residual sweetness?

I was using some very high alpha hops that I would probably replace the next time around. IIRC the Vic Secret I had was 21%AA and Galaxy was up at about 16%. While I know that I could have added them for less time in the whirlpool to minimise the bitterness I was also trying to get as much aroma in there as possible so next time I would either shorten the whirlpool time or use hops with less AA. I have used just flameout additions before but I really think that the resultant beer lacks something so that is why I try to add a late addition (10 minute) as well as a flameout.

I made a beer based on the advice in this thread too. Was 67% Golden Promise, 21% malted oats, 8% flaked wheat and 4% carahell. 10g Galaxy at 10 minutes then 40g each of Galaxy, Vic Secret and El Dorado hop hash. Dry hopped twice each time with 30g each of the above hops. Its smells great and tastes ok but like both of you its too bitter, maybe with a bit too much hop astringency too. Imperial Juice (London III) for yeast.

I was thinking of going all whirpool but Micks comments are putting me off that. Maybe trying a couple 12/13%ish hops with one of around 6-8% might smooth it out a bit.

Quote from: Qs on November 20, 2018, 02:09:40 PM
I made a beer based on the advice in this thread too. Was 67% Golden Promise, 21% malted oats, 8% flaked wheat and 4% carahell. 10g Galaxy at 10 minutes then 40g each of Galaxy, Vic Secret and El Dorado hop hash. Dry hopped twice each time with 30g each of the above hops. Its smells great and tastes ok but like both of you its too bitter, maybe with a bit too much hop astringency too.

I was thinking of going all whirpool but Micks comments are putting me off that. Maybe trying a couple 12/13%ish hops with one of around 6-8% might smooth it out a bit.

By all means go with whirlpool, it's just my feeling regarding only whirlpool hops. Five it a lash and see of it's any better. Like you my beer smells amazing but that bitterness comes through that kind of takes away from the beer.

Its a problem I've had with all my NEIPAs too, just can't get that really soft hop flavour without the bitterness. I might try the whirpool only, I don't know. It'll be a while before I got again at this style anyway.

I really liked the mouth feel from the malt on this one, the yeast and oat malt did the trick there.

I usually do a 10 minute addition and then a flame out addition of 50% of final hop amount - I steep this for 10 minutes and calculate it as 10 minutes boil, then drop the temp to 75C for the 50% balance hop steep. I dial this in so it gives me 30 theoretical IBUs and tastes about right.