10 people needed to make this happen. Just gauging interest.
Who is interested in buying a microbrewery and associated paraphernalia (e.g. fermenters), splitting rent on a unit, etc. Call it brewery time-share.
Each person would be guaranteed the opportunity to brew at least once a week, assuming a brew takes no more than 5 hours. If 3 people form a partnership it means they can brew at least 3 times a week.
What you do with your finished beer then is your business as this is about sharing a microbrewery, not about all going into business together! :)
You are free to sell on your share.
Brewery would be located somewhere convenient to the most amount of people.
Cost of entry: around €10,000 per person.
This could be a co-op, I was going to suggest this on another forum about a year ago,but forgot. This is a good way to get into this business without too much cost and it means that you have a better pool of knowledge to draw upon. It is certainly a good idea.
Hmmm ... 10k ... equipment & rent ...
What about legal side of that co-op?
Will you be able to sell your beer or each of participants will
have to register company and get all the permissions needed?
What about distribution? Individual or shared?
Also, with every brew you'll still need to pay something to customs ... ?
I really like the idea of starting micro but I don't think that 10k will be enough :(
I think it would be hard to recoup the money if there was no consistency of product. I suggest you would need 2-3 core brews that are consistent and regular and that you could then allow a guest tap style idea for the whims of the members and their personal brew time.
If you base it completely on whimsical brews I think you have a brand problem.
QuoteThe customs (Revenue) get about 17c per average pint.
How is it working here? In Poland customs will charge you base on your beer gravity in Plato.
QuoteIt's €10,000 x 10, i.e. €100,000.
What about deposit required by customs? Or am I wrong here?
QuoteQuoteI think it would be hard to recoup the money if there was no consistency of product. I suggest you would need 2-3 core brews that are consistent and regular and that you could then allow a guest tap style idea for the whims of the members and their personal brew time.
If you base it completely on whimsical brews I think you have a brand problem.
This only covers number 2 above. What people do with the brewery on their own time slot is their business: their brand, their beer, their van, their marketing budget.
I'd have said it actually hits the rest of them too, the more packaging you have the more that budget increases, also marketing, you could call it "Pop-up brewery" but to make money I think you need consistency, otherwise it's homebrew on a large scale.
1. Declan :)
I nearly came when i saw this thread :o
I do get the idea Shane, it's the concept that I have difficulty with.
You have ten sets of fermenting equipment???
I can't see how it would work and to be financially viable I think any brewery needs to be built around a core of brews and consistency. The idea by it's very nature has inbuilt inconsistency, simply based on the fact that each user does their own thing, so effectively you have ten virtual breweries, all vying for the same space and effectively competing, this fragmentation would be an issue.
I think the way it would work would be more as a co-op producing a core of brews and guest brews.
I get the idea and I like the basic idea, but not the concept that you are mooting as I think it would be destined to failure, or at least not worth my 10k to get involved in.
I think united you could produce a brand and the guest brews could piggy back on that, otherwise it's chaos and it'd create headaches for ten people.
I'm just playing devils advocate here and taking a different tack on the base idea, not trying to rain on your parade :)
It would also be a vendors nightmare.
What size of a brewery are we proposing?
I would seriously consider something like this but think you are drastically under budget.
With 10 different brews a week you'll need a hell of a lot of vessels (of what size)
5 hours will not be enough time to prep and clean up so you can hand over to the next guy
I will have more to say but am out the door now ;D
QuoteIt doesn't have to be financially viable as it's not a business. You're buying timeshare for €10k. You're not buying into a brewing business.
Think of it this way: one of the micros does only one brew a week. If they decided to rent out their plant for the other 6 days of the week, it'd be a similar concept.
Also, Metalman was very consistent when it was sharing plant with another brand.
I'm aware of what you're proposing, I've actually spoke to people about doing similar, but I think you're underestimating set up cost.
To brew only once a week you will need to be brewing a considerable amount of beer to make it financially viable (for you as a brewer, not for the whole group) Each brewer (10) will need, well I suppose in this case you might get away with 1 fv and a couple of bright beer tanks, although 3-4 unitanks/brewer would make more sense. Thats a lot of vessels, a lot of floor area and a lot of lolly.
The practicalities of 10 guys knocking out 10 brews a week in 5 hours each, every week will not stack up.
One of the most time consuming elements of running a micro is cleaning, not just your fv's, everything, who's responsible for this?
The only way this could work is if there was a manager with a small staff that run the building and get paid by the brewers. This could work, but then you're brand starts to go well and you're restricted to 1 brew a week.
Anyone I've ever spoken to says whatever size your brew plant you really need to brew at least 3 times a week to make money
QuoteHmmm ... 10k ... equipment & rent ...
I thought Tube said 10 people at 10K a head thats 100K in my money. How big is this brerwery going to BE?
A 50L Braumiser or two and 10 connicals and bright beer conditioning tanks would be nowhere near the above
Will
Who takes responsibility for line cleaning?
There needs to be some one person that everyone can kick the shit out of in the case of a mass infection.
QuoteBTW, we spoke to someone recently who ran a very successful business covering all 5 of the above steps, and he is puzzled as to why micros are not sharing equipment, especially brew houses. It's madness that the kit is spending most of it's time doing nothing.
I agree, but with one owner/manager responsible. When you hire White Gypsy's brewery you do not brew, you get to help alright!
Eight Degree's have rental space at the minute
Before a penny is put down,a clear understanding for me would be that this is a business,to make money by producing and selling beer. :o.
There is a lot of knowledge here on making good beer,but running this as a business,needs to be clearly defined. This co-op idea is a good one because the risk is shared and the work load is also shared. Spud is correct when he say's cleaning up and continuing to do so is very important. You would need people on site each day.
They will, havnt spoken to them about it but I understand it's the same as White Gypsy.
You go along for the day and brew with them.
It cant work any other way. There's to much at risk!
A guy i know is in the proses of opening his own micro brewery here.Will give him this link if it's ok.Maybe he can give some info on this.
Can I add some more fuel to this debate on an ethical issue?
1
Can we really be called 'Homebrewers' from a 100,000 euro premises?
2
Is homebrew not about producing great beers from a few hundred euros of basic gear at home? Cant almost anyone make great beer with top of the range equipment and software
3
Is there not a fear that the whole ethos and mystery of brewing at home, waiting that few weeks/ months and having the first real tasters with a few mates at home or at one of the meet ups, this may/will dissapear with commercial level equipment and consistent brews?
4
Where does homebrew finish and craft/ commercial brewing start?
5
How can normal homebrewers ever compete at brew competitions against brewers with top notch facility and equipment and will it not alianate potential homebrew fans?
Above said, I love the sharing of resources, ideas and passion for real beer!
I think that there is the kern of a good idea here, but the concept needs to be clear, at 10k it's not a hobby...it's almost a career change.
The idea of shared premises only works when there is a functioning brewery that shares their facilities with people, but there is a business ticking over at the heart of it.
I'd say it's worth talking about more but the dream needs to be seperated from reality, Dougal styleee
QuoteCan I add some more fuel to this debate on an ethical issue?
1
Can we really be called 'Homebrewers' from a 100,000 euro premises?
2
Is homebrew not about producing great beers from a few hundred euros of basic gear at home? Cant almost anyone make great beer with top of the range equipment and software
3
Is there not a fear that the whole ethos and mystery of brewing at home, waiting that few weeks/ months and having the first real tasters with a few mates at home or at one of the meet ups, this may/will dissapear with commercial level equipment and consistent brews?
4
Where does homebrew finish and craft/ commercial brewing start?
5
How can normal homebrewers ever compete at brew competitions against brewers with top notch facility and equipment and will it not alianate potential homebrew fans?
Above said, I love the sharing of resources, ideas and passion for real beer!
This is a wish thread,so ethic's dont apply,
1. we would be just bigger homebrewers with a big kit 8-),
2. having bigger equipment does not guarantee great beer,I have tasted better homebrew beer than what's on the market. :)
3.commercial and consistent are not 2 words that alway's go together with bigger brewery's. ;)
4.when you ask someone to pay you for it. :).
5. homebrewers would blow them out of the water at a professional tasting . :)
jesus I'm responding like TBN. :-[
So I agree most good homebrew is better than everyday commercial stuff. Here the question is referring to capable homebrews and competition winners who now invest in state of the art gear, are ye now still suggesting that theres no advantage compared to a homevbrewer using plastic buckets, a hand thermometer and a corny keg or bottles?
And really my comment was as a homebrew club is going 'commercial' not outside the remit of the club as stated on the main page "homebrewers for homebrewers"
Definition of homebrew is brewing at home. Brewing in a commercial premises is not really homebrew?
I dont disagree at all no harm in innovation, I'm sure theres already homebrewers using great gear. Theres just a risk with clubs that move too far away from the ordinay members and the members get lost in the process. Its just important to stary with the ethos of any club and not to leave others behind.
So wheres the gear most likely coming from? straight from China, from a middle man in Germany or what about gettin a passionate small Irish stainless steel shop to stay in business for another year or two with a nice bespoke contract? Any ideas?
I like this concept Tube, it's probably the best way for a new entrant to enter the market. I think you need to get a few people together to get it off the ground. I think you'd need to have a smaller number than 10, 7 is a sweet spot in that if gives each brewer a day to brew on.
I think that as someone mentioned earlier that it would probably be best to have a brewing assistant on hand for everyone and this person(or two people) would be in charge of ensuring that equipment is clean etc.
I think it would be great to get the numbers put together and see what the setup costs would be and the running costs, because yes €10k for the kit might sound about right but obviously there would be some variable costs that would need to be organised as a group....
It's a good concept, that needs a bit of fleshing out and I might just be joining Declan on the list.
@Bren we can still be home brewers and pro brewers at the same time!
@Eoin I see where you are coming from but I think once the concept is fleshed out and the numbers are more solid it could be a great little co-op!
QuoteQuoteI like this concept Tube,
Do you prefer it to Plan B (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1353439347)?
Yes.
If I'm starting a brewery, I want it to be my brewery! I'm very interested in the idea of shared equipment to reduce the start up costs and red tape issues. But the idea for me is that once it's up and running shares can be sold on if you're not doing well or have out grown the the brewery co-op!
The venue will be a hot topic. i suppose factors to consider are
1
central location to the people involved; if 10 people from tallaght and 2 from leix then we wud need maybe naas road/ clondalkin or vice versa. prob is while we have great roads there are still awkward places e.g. kildare town to leixlip an hour traffic permitting. First impression for me would be nangor road south near citywest interchange, this makes it an easy hop from leix/maynooth/lucan then city centre/tallaght clondalkin no prob and for me and others in kildare newbridge naas we have a lot further to drive but at least its motorway all the way.
2
cost of rent. there are fantastic premises going for half nothing, Many new, some closed down bakeries, and probably even an old brewery in Newbridge! All the Celtic tiger industrial areas have plenty vacant premises many in nama......on this note coupld prob buy a place for 50k
3
commercial commute/ traffic/ access by customers deliveries and so on.
4
Energy efficiency/ insulated building/ environment/ water quality
Very interesting stuff. Love the idea of safety in numbers but personally I would be more for the idea of people going in as a company with key lines rather than everyone brews what they like. A single business plan and agreed direction before playing around with the new toys. Could be something I would look into. Safety in numbers.
QuoteVery interesting stuff. Love the idea of safety in numbers but personally I would be more for the idea of people going in as a company with key lines rather than everyone brews what they like. A single business plan and agreed direction before playing around with the new toys. Could be something I would look into. Safety in numbers.
I see where you're coming from but if we did a co-op sort of setup you could make a grouping with one or two others and have the brewery for half of the week. I think the safety in the co-op system would be your ability to resell your share to the next brewer who is planning on setting up, I'm not saying it's a guaranteed resale but if you got the first 7 involved in a brewery then the within a couple of months I'm sure there would be one or two hovering to grab a share or one or two who want to expand.
The main problem with having 10 brewers is the whole too many cooks.... that and the hassle of making sure everyone pulls their weight.
I know there would be alot of hassle with a co-op as well but for me personally I'd be more interested in going down this route rather than a share in a brewery. If I were to go down the share route I'd probably be more interested in chatting to one of the existing brewers...
Bunching together, imo, is essential. Otherwise you'll have 10 new microbreweries coming to market at the same time, all in the same area. That's about a 50% increase in breweries nationally. I don't think there is enough demand to sustain that.
Also, if you're talking serious money like 100k then perhaps a dedicated brew pub on the side might be an idea.
Can anyone think of an existing pub (struggling) that may innovate and embrace an onsite brewery plan? Is this a possibility?
I stayed at the Eaton Hotel in Chester and to my surprise there was a brewery in the basement which was also a lovely pub on the canal, you passed the brewhouse to get to the loo tghey brewed for their own use and also for a few pubs in liverpool, a lovely operation, very innovative although it reminds me of the original Porterhouse templebar.
QuoteBunching together, imo, is essential. Otherwise you'll have 10 new microbreweries coming to market at the same time, all in the same area. That's about a 50% increase in breweries nationally. I don't think there is enough demand to sustain that.
Also, if you're talking serious money like 100k then perhaps a dedicated brew pub on the side might be an idea.
The market would be tested for sure, I would be surprised if everyone was ready to go the first week and I'd be surprised if there were 10 different breweries. I'd say 4-5 at most would be set up. And that their launches would be staggered over a couple of months.
I think a 25% increase in brewers could be sustained, that said I accept the geographical location might be an issue.
Edited: sorry hit enter by mistake half way through!
There's a great spot up in Letterkenny also, 2 function rooms, separate bar and restaurant, big kitchen, 12/15 letting rooms, huge cellar and basement area, massive carpark and delivery area and covered smoking area (right beside Enterprise Ireland and Invest Donegal too) but obv the share would have to be in or around Dublin.
The brew pub concept is one i have fallen in love with years ago.
The pub/ hotel industry in Ireland needs to think outside the box if theyre goin to survive! Tourists deserve a better deal as well, they dont want to drink Guiness in most cases and they dont report back to their mates in america about the wonderfull boring pub selling shit beer with a stressed out barman who hasnt time to say hello or goodbye to ya.
Touristy hotel/ brewpub sounds innovative....if anyone going to chester (a haven for oldeworldy brewpubs) check out the eaton incorporating swiftys brewpub!
A point to consider:
Small breweries that we have visited tend to brew once or twice a week. That means at most 4 fermenters are needed.
Ok some have double sized fermenters but you get my drift.
If we are going to have 10 members brewing two batches a day for 5 days then we are going to need a minimum of 10 fermenters ( assuming the beer ferments in 1 week ) and about 20 bright beer / conditioning tanks (assuming 2 weeks in tank).
This is WAY more stainless steel stuff than the small breweries have.
They tend to brew one day, move beer around and bottle or keg on one or two days. The other days are spent delivering and doing the books, marketing, attending festivals etc.
This really is going to be massive in terms of stainless steel
BTW: What size mash tun / fermenters are ye talking about?
Will
Was talking with Carrig and theyre brewing 24/7! for the christmas season also spoke with Tom Dalton who is flat out on turbo as well.
So dont forget seasonal variations when considering equipment needs
Ive brewed 1000 litres since march!
ahhh wudnt be the same,.... its much more fun brewing 23 ltrs once r twice a week that 1000 at one batch! And the variety is just a tad more interesting too
What about making them an offer:
http://www.beoir.org/community/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9193
Central location, existing brewery, Pub and clientele!!
What more could you ask for?
Capital Brewers would have a MAJOR CRAPPITY SMACKING base
Will
BTW: If these are serious threads can we at least merge these two threads about plan A and plan B
I agree with tube.....However the principle is bang on as I suggested in an warlier post. There are tons of premises being reposessed or handed back to the banks, they are everywhere, Messers may fetch a million as its prime property and a large premises. The banks will flogg all this property asap because they are a liability unless they can get a tennent, by selling cheap they will get a tennant that will make a fortune from it. thats the nature of a recession, winners and losers!
Keep looking!
Hey Lads
Me and my brewing mate would love to get in on this., It's a great way to get into the business while sharing the costs, knowledge, pros and cons with other like minded members.
None of us have operated a brewery before so having 10 separate entities in the one brewery could be a good advantage as it will shorten the learning curve hugely as we can all feed off each other experience in 5the brewery.
I do think it's essential for one brand with at least one core beer for consistency and building awareness of the brand, each brewer can still produce their beers alongside the core beer.
That being said, I would definitely be interested in this once the details were irons out a bit
Kev
*bump*
Really interesting idea.
Pity my knowledge isn't that good, though have time (after the summer) and some cash to go in with others for a share.