Hi Guys,
Is there any other alternative to VWP,
thanks
Will swears by Lidls "W5" non perfumed one, but I think he also washes his smalls in his brew buckets ;D
videne is the answer. u can get ur chemist to order it. it's what surgeons use before going into theatre. you want the stuff without the hand moisturiser though. 1.25 ml mixes with 1 L of water to give a no rinse touch sterilising solution. I've done probably about 30 batches of beer and have only recently gone into my second bottle. most expensive ive seen it is £8
If you're looking for a cleaner you could try any of the oxy cleaners on the market. Lidl or Aldi do a cheap one but I can't remember which. Starstan is probably the most commonly used no rinse sanitiser.
Quote from: matthewdick23 on April 23, 2013, 08:14:58 AM
videne is the answer. u can get ur chemist to order it. it's what surgeons use before going into theatre. you want the stuff without the hand moisturiser though. 1.25 ml mixes with 1 L of water to give a no rinse touch sterilising solution. I've done probably about 30 batches of beer and have only recently gone into my second bottle. most expensive ive seen it is £8
It's not a substitute for star san he's looking for, it's a substitute for VWP which is a bleach based cleaner and sanitiser. You'd use the Videne afterwards to do no rinse before bottling.
I have used VWP for both purposes clean/sanitize it is a chlorine based after all. Never had to use a specific sanitizer why would you if thing are visible clean then VWP will kill 99% of baddies. Is the lidl chlorine based i wonder.
Quote from: Covey on April 23, 2013, 08:24:19 PMNever had to use a specific sanitizer why would you if thing are visible clean
Lots of people use Starsan because it is a no rinse sanitiser and it kills nasties on contact. In other words, it's incredibly easy and quick to use. I don't think VWP is no rinse but maybe I'm wrong?
Always one to like an organised list:
Cleaning
VWP
W5 (Lidl)
Oxiclean
(are all three of these the same thing with different brand names?)
Sanatising
Starsan
Videne
iodaphor
bleach/vinegar
Paracetic acid
Nice ;D
Quote from: Padraic on April 23, 2013, 08:50:42 PM
Always one to like an organised list:
Cleaning
VWP
W5 (Lidl)
Oxiclean
(are all three of these the same thing with different brand names?)
Sanatising
Starsan
Videne
iodaphor
bleach/vinegar
Paracetic acid
Very handy Padraic Thanks!
Some basics:
Cleaning
VWP: Is a chlorine based cleaner not recommended for long term contact with stainless steel. Leaves rough plastic surfaces (i.e used plastic brewing equipment smelling of chlorine. If you use it and steep a vessel rinse out with StarSan or sodium meta-bisulphite (Campden Tabs))
W5 (Lidl) A per-carbonate solution that equals active oxygen ( a great bleaching agent/steriliser) and washing soda. Mildly caustic so don't get strong stuff on your hands.
Oxiclean: As W5 but 5 times the price and perfumed!!
(are all three of these the same thing with different brand names?)
Sanatising
Starsan: A mix of an acid sanitiser and a cleaning agent(surfactant) - non rinse - needs about 20seconds or so do do its job. Must be made fresh or if used in a spray bottle then you must use RO or de-ionised or diistilled water to dilute. Used this way (dilute spray) it is VERY ecconomical.
Videne: No Idea what this is
iodaphor: An Iodine based sanitiser but I have no info!
bleach/vinegar: Cheap and home made! Never mix the two concentrates together. Would leave traces of vinegar and chlorine behind!
Peracetic acid: Vinegar on steroids! Again a substance that decomposes into Acetic acid and Water and active oxygen! In concentrated form its serious nasty stuff. Some industrial/agricultural stregths will take your hand off let alone your lungs! Be careful
Why do you need to use RO or distilled water with StarSan?
Quote from: Cathal O D on April 24, 2013, 08:37:42 AM
Why do you need to use RO or distilled water with StarSan?
If you have hard water it turns the star san milky, and this is the point that the guy from Five Star says that star san is no longer effective and it is not a good idea to keep it and reuse it.
If you use RO or distilled water then it stays clear and you can put it away to use the next time and save lots of star san.
Quote from: Eoin on April 24, 2013, 09:25:51 AMIf you have hard water it turns the star san milky, and this is the point that the guy from Five Star says that star san is no longer effective and it is not a good idea to keep it and reuse it.
If you use RO or distilled water then it stays clear and you can put it away to use the next time and save lots of star san.
This has been disputed by a few people online who have run experiments and found that the pH remains very low even when Starsan goes cloudy. I can't remember where I read about this but maybe Adam would know?
My Starsan goes cloudy almost straight away but seems to remain effective. I haven't seen the need to use distilled/RO water.
For cleaning I use hot water and a microfibre cloth on plastic and a Vileda sponge on metal. I use Chemipro Oxi on anything that has hard to reach nooks.
Everything is sanitized with Starsan before using again. It's great because a large bottle will last ages. It's expensive, but it can be reused several times as everything is already clean. Just bottle it in a 5l plastic bottle and keep till next you need it.
I've been doing this for over a year now and never had a problem.
I'm wary about using supermarket oxi cleaners. They are only about 30% oxi cleaner, so what is the other 70%? And is it food safe? I couldn't find any info on this, but since they are sold for laundry use I'm not willing to risk it.
Quote from: Metattron on April 24, 2013, 11:36:36 AM
For cleaning I use hot water and a microfibre cloth on plastic and a Vileda sponge on metal. I use Chemipro Oxi on anything that has hard to reach nooks.
Everything is sanitized with Starsan before using again. It's great because a large bottle will last ages. It's expensive, but it can be reused several times as everything is already clean. Just bottle it in a 5l plastic bottle and keep till next you need it.
I've been doing this for over a year now and never had a problem.
I'm wary about using supermarket oxi cleaners. They are only about 30% oxi cleaner, so what is the other 70%? And is it food safe? I couldn't find any info on this, but since they are sold for laundry use I'm not willing to risk it.
I was thinking of getting that to clean the 'haze' of dirt on the inside of my bottles as the bottle brush simply isn't working. Would it work for that by just soaking or does it still need to be scrubbed?
I use it to clean demijohns and soaking usually does the job. I usually give it a go over with the brush too though, to be sure to be sure.
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on April 24, 2013, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: Eoin on April 24, 2013, 09:25:51 AMIf you have hard water it turns the star san milky, and this is the point that the guy from Five Star says that star san is no longer effective and it is not a good idea to keep it and reuse it.
If you use RO or distilled water then it stays clear and you can put it away to use the next time and save lots of star san.
This has been disputed by a few people online who have run experiments and found that the pH remains very low even when Starsan goes cloudy. I can't remember where I read about this but maybe Adam would know?
My Starsan goes cloudy almost straight away but seems to remain effective. I haven't seen the need to use distilled/RO water.
I'm going by the owners recommendations, Charley Tally gives a webcast on star san, and also I'm going on my local water matched with my pH meter.
When I test my water it won't go below about 3.4 and that's just at the edge of the effective range, I'm happier using Halfords battery water.
What are commercial brewers using to clean sealed up tanks like pressurized conical's. I know that they have CIP (clean in place) spheres that spray a cleaner all around the inside but having no way to physically scrub the inside it would need to be mighty stuff :-\.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on April 24, 2013, 01:57:18 PM
What are commercial brewers using to clean sealed up tanks like pressurized conical's. I know that they have CIP (clean in place) spheres that spray a cleaner all around the inside but having no way to physically scrub the inside it would need to be mighty stuff :-\.
On my visit to Metalman Nathan told me they get inside the containers every so often and give them a full scrub down. Not sure how that would work on a massive industrial tank though. :/
Caustic soda is used quite a bit I believe
Is that what they use. Great stuff when you need to clear a drain and such but you would want to be certain that none remains in the sphere after.
This is interesting: http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1346-sanitation-tips-from-the-pros
I'd say it's in Charley Tallys interest to tell you to throw out cloudy starsan. The more you use the happier he'll be! Just check it's ph to see for yourself. Mine is always cloudy with tap water but it always does it's job.
Quote from: Metattron on April 24, 2013, 02:43:26 PM
I'd say it's in Charley Tallys interest to tell you to throw out cloudy starsan. The more you use the happier he'll be! Just check it's ph to see for yourself. Mine is always cloudy with tap water but it always does it's job.
Mine too. Will tells me water from a fish shop would reduce time before the cloudy decends...RO perhaps?
Quote from: Ciderhead on April 23, 2013, 12:36:12 AM
Will swears by Lidls "W5" non perfumed one, but I think he also washes his smalls in his brew buckets ;D
12 months using this w5 oxy action (non perfumed) 80 brews later zero infections! Cleans like a dream, totally ozone friendly as it decomposes to salt and oxygen ( open to correction).
fabulous stuff, cheap and its exactly the same as the homebrew stuff in a tiny container for 3.50.
this is about 2.50 in lidls.
warning wear gloves as it will dissolve your skin.
theres nothing better or cheaper than this product
I use soda crystals to clean very cheap and gives a good clean with out scrubbing. You need to give a good rinse while still wet or you will be left with a powdery residue which will need a good soak and rinse to remove. Usually costs about 1euro for 500g in most supermarkets.
I agree but dont agree.
The industrial suppliers of oxy action vwp and also "wilko bruclens cleaner and steriliser" state it kills bacteria, viruses, moulds, and spores. Sodium percarbonate is the ingredient. As far as Im aware it denatures everything it touches making it a steriliser not a cleaner.
Would be good to get an official Chemists scientific report on this stuff coz it would clear up a lot and save a fortune. VWP is the same sodium percarbonate at 10 times the price as well as other " homebrew" steriliser. I also believe it is a no rinse and if rinsing it rinses efficiently in a tiny amount of water unlike bleaches which you have to hose down forever. It is completly odourless and eco friendly decomposes in 24 hours.
Also a good weedkiller spray but dont inhale it or u will loose your bronchial linings!
Open to correction / debate!
Quote from: Dr Jacoby on April 24, 2013, 02:02:39 PM
Caustic soda is used quite a bit I believe
dont they use hydrogen peroxide?
Quote from: brenmurph on April 24, 2013, 09:44:48 PM
I agree but dont agree.
The industrial suppliers of oxy action vwp and also "wilko bruclens cleaner and steriliser" state it kills bacteria, viruses, moulds, and spores. Sodium percarbonate is the ingredient. As far as Im aware it denatures everything it touches making it a steriliser not a cleaner.
Would be good to get an official Chemists scientific report on this stuff coz it would clear up a lot and save a fortune. VWP is the same sodium percarbonate at 10 times the price as well as other " homebrew" steriliser. I also believe it is a no rinse and if rinsing it rinses efficiently in a tiny amount of water unlike bleaches which you have to hose down forever. It is completly odourless and eco friendly decomposes in 24 hours.
Also a good weedkiller spray but dont inhale it or u will loose your bronchial linings!
Open to correction / debate!
Agreed
I think there is a mix up when it comes to Cleaning and Stanitization. Cleaning is the removal of dirt or grime, stanitization is the reduction of germs. If you have something visiable clean by using water alone you can then go straight to stanitizing the item. This no rince nonsense is gas too, if there is a tiny droplets of any santizter it can not impact on 23l of nice tasty beer. My opinion only. But i do work in a lab.