I have for the past age been plagued with Hard Water.
At every house move, the water gets harder and harder.
Currently I am at 277mg/l.
Apart from the fact that some additives can be hard to get, my preference is to clean up my Liquor rather than compound it. Boiling is too much hard work and cost.
Water2buy supply non-pumped RO for EUR230, pumped RO for EUR366.
http://www.water2buy.ie
I have emailed them to see if they are interested in becoming an affiliate to hopefully attract a discount on their already quite keen pricing.
If anyone has interest in this, please have a look at their website and register your no-obligation interest here; Forum name, and Filtration preference.
1. johnrm - non-pumped RO
No reply from water2buy.
Zero interest on here.
I'm parking this.
http://www.vyair.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=129
Thats sterling
I've since fgound these guys...
http://www.aquaeuro.ie/
Assuming we're comparing apples with apples, the aquaeuro represents excellent value.
I was looking at 5 stage RO
Tank and pump versions seem to be best value with these guys.
Right now this is on hold though, my housing situation may be changing again.
Quote from: johnrm on May 20, 2013, 02:33:16 PM
I was looking at 5 stage RO
Tank and pump versions seem to be best value with these guys.
Right now this is on hold though, my housing situation may be changing again.
These things are easy to move John, if you're keen to buy but moving house
Easy to move? were you caught by predictive Lars? ;)
Keen, but this thing has popped up and a decision is imminent so I'm going to sit tight for the mo.
Quote from: johnrm on May 20, 2013, 03:50:05 PM
Easy to move? were you caught by predictive Lars? ;)
Keen, but this thing has popped up and a decision is imminent so I'm going to sit tight for the mo.
oops, corrected!
Hi Guys, New to this forum. A friend forwarded me your link in regard to Reverse Osmosis Systems. We work alot with Micro brewerys and specilise in the distribution of water filtertration equiptment. I would be happy to assist in any questions you may have in regard to RO Systems and also a special discounted rate for Home brewers. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
http://www.thewatershop.ie
Quote from: Watershop on May 21, 2013, 02:34:55 PM
Hi Guys, New to this forum. A friend forwarded me your link in regard to Reverse Osmosis Systems. We work alot with Micro brewerys and specilise in the distribution of water filtertration equiptment. I would be happy to assist in any questions you may have in regard to RO Systems and also a special discounted rate for Home brewers. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
http://www.thewatershop.ie
Hi, your website is under construction. Are you a new startup or how come you've no site?
Canny post up some system costs and specs please?
Also, can you quote me for a new set of filters and membrane for a 5 stage RO system with a tank?
Thanks
L
Hi Lars
Sorry for the inconvience but we are currently udating our website. The company was established in 1990 which you can check at the CRO web site. Just type in Water Shop. I tried to post some information but unfortunatly all the files are to big. As a guide price i could offer a 5 stage pumped RO for €300.00 and a full set of replacement cartridges for €75.00. All prices are exclusive of postage and packing. My email address is info@thewatershop.ie Please email me if you require any furhter information.
Thanks watershop, I have a system but it'll need filters soon.€75 seems reasonable if my memory serves me right so ill definitely consider you guys. As a matter if interest, what's the realistic throughput of that pumped 5 stage system with say a 2bar delivery pressure?(my non pumped 5stage system is soooo slow)
Also, what sort of reduction are you offering to members of the Nhc?
Thanks
L
It is not uncommon with reverse osmosis system to produce the water very slowly when the water pressure is below 60psi (4 Bar). This is why a pumped system is a much better option. The pumps are generally 12v -24v and a good RO pump should produce a pressure of between 60 -100psi (4 - 6 Bar). The membranes are rated 50GPG, 70GPD, 100GPD. This means that the mambrane is capable of producing theses amounts of water in 24Hrs. Bear in mind that GPD stands for Gallons per day and these are US GPD. This means a pumped system with a 50GPD membrane @ 60psi (4 bar) pressure should produce 2.08US Gallons/Hr (7.87 litres/hour). Hope this helps?
I've been looking into this recently as our water is hard as Chuck Norris and keeps breaking kettles and steam sterilizers.
The first link seems to be the best value at the moment at €210 for the pumped version:
http://www.water2buy.ie/reverse-osmosis/reverse-osmosis-pumped-ro600-aquasmart-5-stage-filter-set (http://www.water2buy.ie/reverse-osmosis/reverse-osmosis-pumped-ro600-aquasmart-5-stage-filter-set)
Did you get one in the end John?
Edit:
I phoned them up and they said it will remove pretty much everything from the water apart from bacteria (important if you have a well).
The tank is 2.5 gallons and takes about 45 minutes to fill completely.
They have 2 delivery methods, free (next day) and €7.50 (about 3 days).
Time to convince M'lady that we NEEED to get an RO filtration system. Once I find out how much waste water it actually produces.
Guy on the phone said 1 gallon waste to filter 4 gallons water, but that can't be true.
No water charges up your way then?
My concern with these is they dump a lot of 'waste' water.
Maybe the one I picked up for free is just crap. :O
After you said that yesterday, i rang him back and asked how much waste there is and he said 1 gallon waster per 4 clean water.
I think those figures might be pie in the sky though.
But screw it, I might aswell just get it while it's going cheap.
the waste water is correct.. as the water flows to the tank or tap the ro filter has a gadget to backflush. you can pipe the water to the drain or to a container ( water butt) if ur concerned about waste.
I was more concerned about the very low level of waste quoted.
I've heard that these things can sometimes produce up to 12-20 times more waste than water.
I bought it anyway. The free delivery arrived next day.
It's fairly simple to put together, but I need to wire in a socket for it. :)
I'm interested to see how it works out, clean vs waste water.
I never did the pH tests the day I was talking to you, work got in the way.
Bren, do you find a lower pH with your RO water?
Just plugged in my flux capacitor. Havent brought it up to 88mph yet, but soon I'll be able to go all the way to the distant future of 2015 where I'll get my hoverboard.
(http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/eoinlayton/Beer/01112013778_zps1b72e549.jpg)
@ john...never tried it and ive run out of ph strips... ordering more
@LordEoin is that pumped? U mentioned a plug but I can't make out a pump. Let us know what the throughput is when you measure it? Looks identical to my own
Look here...
Thx John! I'll be interested to see the system flow rate. I was close to buying this at one point http://www.vyair.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=129
Had a good chat with one of their sales guys. They seemed very honest about what performance to expect which was nothing like the membrane rating
this is the cheapest source, exact same unit.
Unless u have poor water pressure pressure u dont need pumped system.
non pumped is down to 169 euros
http://www.aquaeuro.ie/Details_eu.asp?ProductID=230
Dunno Bren, that unit has 50GPD membrane not 100. Ive very good pressure throughout my house and theres no way my un-pumped system will deliver enough water for a brew(33Litres ish) in 1 day, thats why I was investigating pumped systems. The vyair systems are actually used for window cleaning so I expect they would have a good flowrate. Also they use 2 X 100GPD membranes in parallel(I think), giving a much larger theoretical output. I fill 5L containers a few days in advance. Ive been told that thers also differences in membrane quality but not sure about that once the rejection ratio is what its meant to be.....
Hardly.. Would need to be careful with specs..Takes about 3 hours to fill the 2 gallon tank so no hope of getting 50 or 100 gallons per day.
Had the pumped one...Took it out... More pressure with the un pumped. Its a great pump tho..Can be used for a transfer pump albeit takes a while.
Ask the others how long it takes to fill.
The membrane may let in 100 galls but it gets exponentially slower as the tank fills.
Empty the ro system by leaving tap on. When empty the water will trickel out. Leave it trickle into a 5 gallon container...Now u know the actual capacity.
Twin ro filters may speed things up.
It may be easier to tap off 2 gallons the night before into a sterile container. Take another two next morn and another two later near brew time thatll give 6 gallons and u dont need to take a chance on an english supplier and the shipping costs.
Another option for ro fans ust get a second hand well pump tank, 10-20 gallons
EDIT: used http://convertcase.net/ - Tube
I've read that the unpumped version wasted more water, and the pumped version will fill in 45 minutes.
not tested the refill rate yet.
75 minutes - 9.5L filtered water - 27.5L waste water
flourine smell gone completely
Edited out tired rant against water2buy's customer support.
@LordEoin, since you're unit has a tank is it possibly you underestimated both throughput and waste dramatically? Yours delivered 9.5L water and 27.5l waste in 75 mins but surely the first 7~8 litres you got were from the tank and the waste from filling the tank was already gone down the drain? Or did you disconnect the tank for your test completely?
Btw I've had huge issues dealing with Irish water filtration company's also. No rudeness but gross incompetence.
I estimated nothing, I was told by them per-order that t would be 4 parts water to 1 part waste.
I completely emptied the tank completely before testing.
Sorry to hear that.
My experience of RO was mucho waste too.
1. Insist in talking to a manager. Express your disappointment, request collection.
2. Supply: 1/2" Qualpex? Tuen off mains. Insert inline 1/2 inch olived tap.
3. Waste: Get a small lengh of 2" PVC pipe, split it lengthways and use that stinky glue (STRONG Uhu smelling) to bandage the waste pipe.
4. If no joy with 1 above, get on to Dermot Jewells crew - http://thecai.ie/
AFAIK brenmurph has had a good experience with these guys, but hey, they're sales people, therefore prone to lying.
6 years since my first RO unit purchased from them and never hasd an issue.
If anyone has been here at south kildare brewers and seen our steam room / jacuzzi, that came from same company about 6 years ago as well... 3 year warranty came with it and we had 3 faults over that time, each time a whole new componant sent by DHL from china from my house. New main comtroller, new steam generator and new 12 volt taps...all working great for past 4 or more years.
So all I can say is that I have never had an issue and I have recomended them ( mainly due to price and the only supplier with free delivery)
Quote from: LordEoin on October 25, 2013, 10:10:24 AM
They have 2 delivery methods, free (next day) and €7.50 (about 3 days).
Interesting delivery strategy ;)
Brenmurph has a couple of RO systems in his house.
I got my system from brenmurph and my wife is looking over my shoulder so it is the best system for having great drinking water and for making tea and coffee as the kettle is not gunked up any more. :). Just happens to be handy for a fella who might want to knock out an oddauld now and then BUT THAT'S NOT WHY I GOT IT ;)
the RO wastes water if u flow it down the drain. The waste ro water has gone through 3 x 5 micron filters, its as pure as it gets for filtered water.. It could be bottled and sold, or you can save it for your mash, sparge, or whatever.
the ro system has a drain outlet, this can be sent ( as it normally is) to the sink waste... it can be stored in a water butt to wash your car, your dog r cat will love it and you can use it as you please... its perfectly good water and it does not have to be dumped down the drain... so really its not waste water if ye use ur loafs
What exactly makes it 'waste water'? Is it packed with the salts you don't want? Is it the same as your normal tap water in composition or more concentrated salts? If salts, are they sodium salts?
Sent from my HTC One
in the end after a headwrecking morning of webchat and phone calls i was offered collection and a refund, or some free sets of water filters.
I'll just go with the free filters and put my brain to work on thinking how to store and use the wastewater.
@eoin - it wouldn't be packed with salts, but would have about a 33% higher concentration of everything that was removed (eg salt, manganese, iron, fluoride, lead, calcium)
Quote from: LordEoin on November 07, 2013, 03:51:32 AM
in the end after a headwrecking morning of webchat and phone calls i was offered collection and a refund, or some free sets of water filters.
I'll just go with the free filters and put my brain to work on thinking how to store and use the wastewater.
@eoin - it wouldn't be packed with salts, but would have about a 33% higher concentration of everything that was removed (eg salt, manganese, iron, fluoride, lead, calcium)
Ideally you'd pipe the waste back into a tank in the attic for the hot water system.
Sent from my HTC One
I was thinking about this and Pipe back to Attic Tank is a good idea but ........
The attic tank is level controlled from the ballcock fed from the road. You'd have to fit the same to the RO feed and then you could only make RO when there is a house demand to draw off the RO waste. Ideally you'd have to put in an RO waste tank in the attic to store it and then feed the attic tank from it. Oh yeah you'd have to run a pipe from under your sink ( or wherever you have your RO setup) all the way to your attic and most domestic installations are not set up to run additional pipes! But possible!
[Edit: Ballcock is one word ;)]
Quote from: DaMun on November 07, 2013, 08:28:55 AM
I was thinking about this and Pipe back to Attic Tank is a good idea but ........
The attic tank is level controlled from the ball love pump fed from the road. You'd have to fit the same to the RO feed and then you could only make RO when there is a house demand to draw off the RO waste. Ideally you'd have to put in an RO waste tank in the attic to store it and then feed the attic tank from it. Oh yeah you'd have to run a pipe from under your sink ( or wherever you have your RO setup) all the way to your attic and most domestic installations are not set up to run additional pipes! But possible!
I did think about ballcock, so yeah, you'd need to work out your waste amounts then collect in a second tank, and then maybe overflow to a water butt. All not too straightforward, but with metering coming, you'd be mad to waste all that water Ted.
TT
Well my system is under the kitchen sink and there is no where I could pump the waste to. So it has to go to the waste outlet. I only use it for drinking water and brewing. As regards to the cost of the water coming in via the government tax pipe, Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on November 07, 2013, 10:14:37 AM
Well my system is under the kitchen sink and there is no where I could pump the waste to. So it has to go to the waste outlet. I only use it for drinking water and brewing. As regards to the cost of the water coming in via the government tax pipe, Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Are you going to blow the pipe up a chara? :-P
Sent from my HTC One
Naa but might form my own Tea party ;)
Quote from: DEMPSEY on November 07, 2013, 10:19:09 AM
Naa but might form my own Tea party ;)
As long as you use your brain unlike those Yankee racist scumbags.
Sent from my HTC One
Isn't one of the point sin RO'ing water to remove hardness?
Pushing this water with higher concentration of salts into your tank is surely going to mean more hassle when it comes to shower doors etc.
Quote from: johnrm on November 07, 2013, 01:30:05 PM
Isn't one of the point sin RO'ing water to remove hardness?
Pushing this water with higher concentration of salts into your tank is surely going to mean more hassle when it comes to shower doors etc.
I thought the same it'd fur your pipes quicker. Best in a greywater system possibly? In my opinion RO is for fish tanks....
Sent from my HTC One
Dont think ye understand RO enough
The first 3 filters are 5 micron filters, thats incredibly small. Some one correct me but I think thats 5 millionts of an inch? There are three 5 microns in sequence.
Then the RO filter works on perfectly clean water and removes minerals that remain by flushing our as it only allows h2o through the membrane ( filter).
the sequence is filter-1....5 micron removes particles bigger than 5 micron, second filter ( carbon block) cleans up anything living ( microbes), third filter is I'm not sure but a polishing up anything that may have gotten through the first 2.
The first 3 filters let feck all through, it almost pure clean sanitary water. The lime/ calcium is caught in the first one and if u have hard water it will block quicker than normal so change it more than normal ( 6 euros or thereabouts).
The ro filter lets through H and 2xO ( H2O) any other minerals get flushed out and you end up with pure H2O. Thats what the flush is for. Normal filters dont have a waste system. So its not toxic waste water...its perfectly sound water. The flush is to remove anything thats not H or 2x0
the wastewater is pure clean water that hasnt gone through the RO filter. Its not full of minerals and pesticides or anything like it is a triple filtered water that has passed by 3 x 5 micron filters including a carbon to kill / trap microbes. The 4th filter is the RO membrane and the 5th is to sweeten and remove any odour that may come from the storage tank. I think its a ground coconut shell filter. The ppm measure after the RO is zero and after the last filter may read 10ppm
The 'waste' is perfect water and can be stored for other uses.
If you want very clean well filtered water you can leave off/ bypass the ro filter. This will speed up the flow significantly. The fifth filter is rated at 75 gallons per minute and 1500 litres, its the RO membrane thats slow.
A normal under-sink water filter is usually a single carbon which cleans up well. the RO is a rolls-royce system that produces H2O. Any of the filters can be used on their own and will clean the water to some degree.
Osmosis by its nature means that a solution passes from an area of concentration to an area of lesser concentration over a semi permeable membrane (Osmosis in reverse) , so I assumed that's what not passing over the membrane was more concentrated with minerals and salts. I understand that pesticides shouldn't really be in drinking water so that wasn't a concern, but the minerals are going somewhere. The best way to do it is not to retrofit and plan the RO system in. It's not good drinking water anyway. 0 ppm means a rebuild..... Good for some stuff but you'll never get it all back in there.
Sent from my HTC One
@ eoin,
Good sciency quote :) There seems terrible confusion about RO. the few posts on the waste seem to suggest that the waster is hard limey contaminated water its clearly not the case.
RO isnt natural as all water has minerals. I forget his name but the big brewer that has all the brewpubs in India was speaking at Alltech. He uses RO to ensure that water is safe and he adds back minerals to suit the brew.
I use RO and have for years; main advantages is you have / should have sterile water / you know what you have, second is its absorbed by humans quicker so I recomend to my clients to use soft water especially after activity. Personally I enjoy soft / RO water more than the chalky hard Ballygowan stuff but its personal preferance.
re brewing as the fella from india says he know what he has then he adds minerals to suit the brew.
I brew with softened water via my softening system ( not RO) but am now putting a tap before the RO and using the triple filtered water as my main brew/ sparge/ topup water will take it off into a sterile 5-gall sealed container on brewday. This triple filtered water is far 'cleaner than municipal or even softened municipal water so thats my brewwater future.
I'd not recommend RO or softened water as drinking water for anyone with a young family. I know from anecdotal experience that bones won't develop as well due to low soluble minerals in drinking water. The anecdote relates to the Rugby playing family (3 bros) at boarding school who were all almost permanently injured with broken bones the chemistry teacher put it down to their softener.
As brew water I see the appeal, but realistically you need a lab behind you, or a lot of understanding to build a proper scratch water profile... IMO of course.
TT
the rugby isnt really a starter for me because a healthy diet with fruit veg nuts and seeds will give an abundance of minerals
re brewing agree but prob worth gettin a general stab at it. Just bring willD out for a pint or two ye may do well :) ;) extracting some ideas