Just had a long chat (15 mins) with Vincent from Biocel in Cork.
They supply cleaners to pretty much all the brewers big and small as well as hospitals, farms and so on. In addition they do water treatment aditives calcium and so on.
WE had a lot of banter on the forun and at meetings about cleaners and whats best and worst as well as pros and cons e.g. bleach is hard to rinse and no so ozone friendly. Oxy action from Lidl is cheap effective but some say it does not kill spores, (I believe it does ( 105 brews and zero infections is worth considering) it is easy to rinse, odourless and rinses easily.
Other cleaners from home brew shops are expensive and often they are exactly the same as Oxy action from Lidl.
Biocel are putting together a package based on my chat with Vincent with recomendations, dosings, costs, delivery costs ( 5 euros) and are willing to do a good deal for professional detergents and sanitisers. It is worth considering and debating this subject a bit more so I look forward to his portfolio he is sending.
Worth considering is that many of their products are oxygen based cleaners and sanitisers one in particular peracetic cid he mentioned and also hydrogen peroxide, both oxygen based as far as my notes go. My years at Dominos Pizza in Naas I was familiar with their cleaning and sanitation, they used a 1 gallon, which was diluted to 1%) in a spray bottle for sanitising food machines an so on. This stuff was about 12 euros a gallon, thats cheap sanitation for a no rinse sanitiser; its a few years so I cant remember the chemical exactly
Keep an eye on this topic will have more in a couple days. Buying in Bulk 10- 20 litres may work out very cheap for top grade professional brewing hygeine products, keeping in mind that the above products are used in a 1-2% solution, which can be split up as a group buy, however depending on shelf life it may be worth buying a 5 litre each if price is right. ( smallest container 5 litres but sig savings for 2o litre drum)
comments welcome
Nice work Brendan, Just need to be very careful buying chemicals that require watering down, it's an Irish thing to put too much in and this can be dangerous.
I have access to lots of chemicals used for sanitising dairies, I would never dream of using them, I wouldn't trust myself!
For me it's Oxi and starsan all the way as per treatment they are very cheap!
Sent from my mediocre phone and an average phone app
Totally agree, I was safety officer for Dominos and aware of chemicals. Theres a power form called Blitz powder which may be useful, the breweries were interested this for safety, convenience and so on ( one tspoon of safe powder in say a gallon mix)
There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve....not sure about others..
The reason Im interested in researching this topic is that it would be nice to source safe, effective and ozone friendly hygeine products at a proper price ( not the 50g of powder from home brew shops adding 50 cent cost onto a brew...10 cent would be more appropriate). from all the banter on forums and meet ups no one seems sure and there is no concencus on cleaning / sanitising. Biocel are spcialists and very very helpful. so we (our club) may move forward a little by understanding cleaning / sanitising better and agree on best solution so we can recomend to newbies and veterans alike.
Keeep in mind as we agreed in Lucan, sanitation should be number 1 recomendation for all brewers especially newbies who dont appreciate it till their beer smells and tastes wrong.
Thanks again John for posting the above safety comment
The PDF in the following link is quite useful as you can take a lot of it for home use.
http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Chemical_and_Hazardous_Substances/Your_Steps_to_Chemical_Safety.pdf
The especially useful stuff to us is the key to hazard symbols and also the section on personal protective equipment.
It might do no harm for people to peruse it and use what is relavant in their home breweries.
Good post Eoin, I agree. We all need to be aware of our cleaning gear and the dangers associated with them.
Keep in mind my point above
quote myself:
"There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve..."
"
Our cleaning materials whether hydrogen Peroxide, or caustic materials, bleach or Oxy action from Lidl are all damaging if used improperly. Bleach is particularly dangerous in my opinion if use wrong and as a highly dangerous toxic fume producer when warm it should be noted that something as common as bleach needs to be used cold for effective results and for safety. Hot it can be a strong respiratory toxin and damage eyes as well as god knows what else it is capable of doing.
Good topic Brenmurph. I would be interested in seeing where this can go.
Quote from: brenmurph on May 10, 2013, 02:07:13 PM
Good post Eoin, I agree. We all need to be aware of our cleaning gear and the dangers associated with them.
Keep in mind my point above
quote myself:
"There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve..."
"
Our cleaning materials whether hydrogen Peroxide, or caustic materials, bleach or Oxy action from Lidl are all damaging if used improperly. Bleach is particularly dangerous in my opinion if use wrong and as a highly dangerous toxic fume producer when warm it should be noted that something as common as bleach needs to be used cold for effective results and for safety. Hot it can be a strong respiratory toxin and damage eyes as well as god knows what else it is capable of doing.
I put down a bottle of nitric acid once in the bathroom and didn't put the lid back on it properly. I lifted it again later and it slipped as I had grabbed it by the lid which was not screwed on correctly and luckily it hit the floor square on and just sprayed a little out of the top of the bottle. My trousers dissolved on my legs, luckily I was in the bathroom and was able to flush everywhere it had touched after removing the trousers. I simply wasn't thinking at the time and was very annoyed with myself, after that I always took care with the acids. It's also possible that my eyes were saved that day by my glasses......
we had a fella in Dominos who opened a working dishwasher that had the descaling liquid in at the time, (bad lime problem in Toughers ind est) some eegit didnt put the warning sign on the dishwasher as was rourtine. He was lucky he just had a sort of fairly bad sunburn on his hands and face
Interesting potential buy and good point on documenting the sanitation procedures.
The Chemipro Oxi is very pricey and I've been using a couple of scoops of lidl oxi to 20L of hot water for a while now myself. My routine is Oxi to clean, then a rinse with water and finally StarSan.
My understanding was you needed sequence of high ph and low ph to achieve a decent sanitise for equipment. Not sure where I've picked that up though.
So what is the brand name of this lidl oxi cleaner
Quote from: Cathal O D on May 10, 2013, 03:44:08 PM
So what is the brand name of this lidl oxi cleaner
Also curious.
Is this the stuff?
(http://www.lidl.ie/static_content/lidl_ie/images/IE/IE_72934wk1513NI_01_b.jpg)
http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/SID-48604C7D-247E1B8D/lidl_ni_ie/hs.xsl/4179_29380.htm
Be aware if you have hard water the Oxi cleaners can drop a film of white stuff on your bottles if you soak them for extended periods, and it's hard to get off....which is why I was using Nitric acid in the bath that time, to remove a film of Oxi stuff from bottles.
Have a read below and feel free to criticise, debate and research further.
via a good friend of mine Dr P Simmons who runs an infecious disease testing lab, suggests nothing but nothing lives in sodium percarbonate I know him a long time and he holds a PHD in Biological sciences. The thing Id like to know is the Purity or concentration of sodium Percarbonate in the Lidl Oxy stuff. and just to repeat another post; Ive have 105 brews in the past 12 months not one infected, no off flavours including the 13 beers I entered in the competitions, that is good anecdotal evidence. The only cleaner / steriliser I have used is Lidl oxy partly due to the undisputable status of being 100% envirofriendly, cheap and effective.
W5 Oxy Power, 2.29 euros for 1kg powder. Active Ingredients Sodium Percarbonate 30% and enzymes.
Enzymes Im pretty sure are a mixture of various protases and amylases which denature proteins and carbohydrates which are exactly what bacteria, viruses moulds and spores are made from. it is unlikely any of above can survive except the spores which have a cellulose shell that makes them more resistant to heat, acids and other killers, so in theory at least even the enzymes (unknown types may be nearly enough to sanitise on their own, but this studd is a very effective cleaner and rinses incredibly easily with little or no water. also it is also possible as a no rinse if it was required see all the info re using as a water treatment.
"Sodium percarbonate is a chemical, an adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide (a perhydrate), with formula 2Na2CO3 · 3H2O2. It is a colorless, crystalline, hygroscopic and water-soluble solid.[1] It is used in some eco-friendly cleaning products and as a laboratory source of anhydrous hydrogen peroxide. Dissolved in water, it yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate ("soda ash")"
source
Craig W. Jones (1999). Applications of hydrogen peroxide and its derivatives. Royal Society of Chemistry. ISBN 0-85404-536-8.
Benefits:
No environmental hazards - breaks down to oxygen, water and sodium carbonate (soda ash) in your wash water.
Effectively kills wide range of bacteria, mould, algae, viruses, fungi
Colour safe and fabric safe. It brightens colours and prevents fabrics from becoming yellowed or darkened
Effective stain removal on a multitude of surfaces
In the laundry Sodium Percarbonate is used to destain, deodorize, and whiten. It is very effective as a laundry presoak for heavily stained articles.
source
http://buychemicals.ie/products/sodium-percarbonate-ultra-pure?gclid=CJTGgd3ui7cCFYo72wodADcAfQ
lots here to keep ye chewing
It usually blasts off all the crud in under an hour. It can leave a residue in my experience. So I rinse everything immediately after it comes out.
as in my last post the residue is sodium carbonate if you let it dry without rinsing...I find it leaves a dusty film rather than a caked on layer Does anyone know if this sodium carbonate residue is good bad or anything else?
either way we should rinse after washing / sterilising, it rinses really easily.
Quote from: Eoin on May 10, 2013, 04:38:16 PM
Be aware if you have hard water the Oxi cleaners can drop a film of white stuff on your bottles if you soak them for extended periods, and it's hard to get off....which is why I was using Nitric acid in the bath that time, to remove a film of Oxi stuff from bottles.
Im guessing that might be a film of sodium carbonate residue blended with the calcium in the hard water, hard water is a pain in the A** so I use my softner system and also Reverse osmosis. The hard water leaves a film in ur kettle and your bath and everywhere else as well :)
Quote from: brenmurph on May 10, 2013, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: Eoin on May 10, 2013, 04:38:16 PM
Be aware if you have hard water the Oxi cleaners can drop a film of white stuff on your bottles if you soak them for extended periods, and it's hard to get off....which is why I was using Nitric acid in the bath that time, to remove a film of Oxi stuff from bottles.
Im guessing that might be a film of sodium carbonate residue blended with the calcium in the hard water, hard water is a pain in the A** so I use my softner system and also Reverse osmosis. The hard water leaves a film in ur kettle and your bath and everywhere else as well :)
I have an issue with softened water in a domestic setting, it's not good for children. I remember in boarding school, the injury prone rugby playing brothers, they all broke bones easily, the chemistry teached used blame their water softener. Two of the brothers played Irish schools so it may also have had to do with the level they were playing, but none the less, I think it tastes bad too, I think it potentially also adds too much sodium to your diet.
Off topic a little but a decent diet will more than suffice mineral intake requirements, in fact water is a very very poor source of minerals compared to fruit veg, grains or most other natural foods e.g nuts and seeds, therefore softened water has little or no impact on mineral status of an individual.
re taste, its subjective whether someone likes soft water or limey water, on the limey water topic, the minerals can harbour bacteria and other baddies and as far as I know the harder the water the more chlorine the council uses to treat it. Excess calcium can play a huge detrimental role in health despite the dieticians still tellin us to drink loads of milk, a much bigger issue is magnesium, potassium, phosphorus and lesser known silica and boron re bone health. Other than that weak bones are prevalent in meat eaters, high wheat intakers and smokers so theres a dozen or more major variables that determine bone quality in an athlete or non athlete not least overtraining which produces excess levels of the Catabolic hormone cortisol which destroys our body including bones.
hope this helps clarify the water thingy. Re athlethes / rugby players they need a diet rich in fruit, veg, nuts, seeds, roots, shoots and any water for performance and health, not raw liver, whole chickens, a dozen eggs for breakfast and protein powders, all combined will certainly reduce bone density through excess free nitrogen which acidifies the blood leaching calcium and other minerals from bone to buffer the acidic blood....result poor bones and illhealth
:)
re sodium: water softener systems dont add salt to the water, it is flushed out of the beads in the regeneration cycle and does not signiicantly contribute salt to the water My softened water reads 40-60 PPM which is low and only a fraction of that will be sodium the rest being a complex of other minerals. My RO water reads zero PPM producing H2O only which is the most absorbable form of water particularly important for active sportspersons
regards Brendan
I use peracetic acid at a 1% to 3% dilution as recommend by manufactures.
The price of a 25L drum is €50 so @ 1% it works out at 2 cent per litre of sanitising fluid.
Needles to say when using any of these products you have to use the proper PPE and have a tub of water or running water to hand. I've seen firsthand the results of spilt acid on skin, it was like using a blowtorch on a wax figure. Something I never want to see again.
Gud man Tucan, another H&S story, we need to be careful when using acids no dought, with careful use theres no problem, bit like drinking, u can do it sensible or carelessy, boiling water can be as dangerous and we use it every day several times as day.
Where do u but the peracetic acid in 25 ltrs? interesting to know cos thats a tenner a gallon or thereabouts for the neat stuff. When Vincent comes back to me with recomendations it will be interesting to compare what everybody is using to put it all into context. He is aware that we homebrewers and that safety is paramount.
I bought mine in an agricultural suppliers in Enniscorthy.
It should be available in any agg suppliers that deal with the dairy industry as they use it to sterilise their milking machines (no rinse and safe on stainless).
Quote from: Garry on May 10, 2013, 04:31:58 PM
Is this the stuff?
(http://www.lidl.ie/static_content/lidl_ie/images/IE/IE_72934wk1513NI_01_b.jpg)
http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/SID-48604C7D-247E1B8D/lidl_ni_ie/hs.xsl/4179_29380.htm
Yep Thats what I noe use to clean/remove the brown stain from my plastic vessels.
After an hour steeping, I then rinse 3 times with tap water, then either use StarSan as a quick sanitiser or metabisulphite as a longer term storage solution.
StarSan does NOT work as a long time "keep it wet and sterile solution" I have seen some moulds growing in my plastic vessels put away for a week or 2!!
Quote from: Will_D on May 10, 2013, 10:52:50 PM
Quote from: Garry on May 10, 2013, 04:31:58 PM
Is this the stuff?
(http://www.lidl.ie/static_content/lidl_ie/images/IE/IE_72934wk1513NI_01_b.jpg)
http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/SID-48604C7D-247E1B8D/lidl_ni_ie/hs.xsl/4179_29380.htm
StarSan does NOT work as a long time "keep it wet and sterile solution" I have seen some moulds growing in my plastic vessels put away for a week or 2!!
Same here. On the edge of my starsan bucket! Ph still below 3.
I always do the oxy/water/starsan routine on anything that's going to be part of the post boil process.
Starsan is marvellous stuff in my opinion and money well spent. A bottle would do you for years.
And where can you buy Starsan?
Quote from: Dunkel on May 13, 2013, 12:59:52 PM
And where can you buy Starsan?
I think the homebrew company are the only irish shop to stock it, there are also some UK based shops that might have it too!
I thought HBW were to get it in as well?
I think we are all guilty of stretching the life of our star-san.
That Vidine stuff sounds good - I like the way the colour changes according to its potency level.
At 5 euro for 500g - and roughly 1 teaspoon per gallon - its almost identical to VWP for price/dosage.
Quote from: Will_D on May 10, 2013, 10:52:50 PM
Quote from: Garry on May 10, 2013, 04:31:58 PM
Is this the stuff?
(http://www.lidl.ie/static_content/lidl_ie/images/IE/IE_72934wk1513NI_01_b.jpg)
http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/SID-48604C7D-247E1B8D/lidl_ni_ie/hs.xsl/4179_29380.htm
Yep Thats what I noe use to clean/remove the brown stain from my plastic vessels.
After an hour steeping, I then rinse 3 times with tap water, then either use StarSan as a quick sanitiser or metabisulphite as a longer term storage solution.
StarSan does NOT work as a long time "keep it wet and sterile solution" I have seen some moulds growing in my plastic vessels put away for a week or 2!!
Will, isn't Starsan meant to last indefinitely if made with RO or DI water, I'm pretty sure that's what charley talley claims. As long as the ph remains below 3 it's still effective (if I remember right)
Starsan will last a long time if made with RO or Dist. Water.
It is a contact sanitizer that needs IIRC 20 seconds wetting time to kill surface bacteria and yeasts.
Note I said surface! It will NOT kill crud in nooks and crannies.
It also is NOT an agresive cleaner!
VWP and the W5 ARE agressive cleaners/sanitizers - they are a mix of sanitisers ( Chlorine, VWP and Atomic oxygen, W5 ) combined with strongish alkalis (VWP, Not sure, no info yet. W5 is Sodium per-Carbonate that breaks down into Oxygen and Sodium Carbonate aka. Washing Soda)
Quote from: Will_D on May 13, 2013, 08:23:29 PM
VWP and the W5 ARE agressive cleaners/sanitizers - they are a mix of sanitisers ( Chlorine, VWP and Atomic oxygen, W5 ) combined with strongish alkalis (VWP, Not sure, no info yet. W5 is Sodium per-Carbonate that breaks down into Oxygen and Sodium Carbonate aka. Washing Soda)
will, what effect will some ( trace) of sodium carbonate have in a beer? if sodium percarbonate was used as a no rinse sanitiser?
What about IPA? Have any of you guys used it?
Sent from my engineering tricorder.
@Will I assumed they were all 'contact' sanitisers? I thought any of those products would need physical contact with bacteria to neutralise it and I assumed heat was the only no-contact sanitiser around so in that regard Starsan differs only from vwp and w5 in that its a no rinse sanitiser and they are cleaning products?
Quote from: brenmurph on May 13, 2013, 08:32:42 PM
Quote from: Will_D on May 13, 2013, 08:23:29 PM
VWP and the W5 ARE agressive cleaners/sanitizers - they are a mix of sanitisers ( Chlorine, VWP and Atomic oxygen, W5 ) combined with strongish alkalis (VWP, Not sure, no info yet. W5 is Sodium per-Carbonate that breaks down into Oxygen and Sodium Carbonate aka. Washing Soda)
will, what effect will some ( trace) of sodium carbonate have in a beer? if sodium percarbonate was used as a no rinse sanitiser?
It would alter the pH upwards towards alkaline. It is not a food grade product though, however a trace of it in a large amount of beer would do no harm.
Both W5 and VWP are cleaners meant to soak containers and remove the staining so often associated with brewing in plastic and glass!
A good rinse is recommended.
I use W5 at the end of the brew day wash up and then store containers/fermenter with a little water and a campden tablet or two added.
Do
not trust Starsan for long term storage! Some of mine showed mould growth!
When ready to use, rinse out the campden water, spray with Starsan, wait 30 secoonds, drain and cover and you are good to go!
I'll be bottling my beer. Assuming the bottles are clean (I'll be using VWP then rinsing), could I just use Sodium Metabisulphite as a sterilising agent before bottling? Being a lazy so-and-so (motivationally challenged), I'm looking for the easiest way possible, so ideally no-rinse. That Videne sounds ideal, but not sure if it's available here.
Aha! I was asking a nurse friend about this Videne, and she's given me a sample (about 50 ml) to try. According to the UK brewing forum, about 1.5 ml in a litre of water should provide an instant contact, no-rinse sanitizer for bottles. It's based on Iodine, and the concentrated stuff (which is used neat or diluted in hospitals) smells a bit Germoliney, but at this dilution it shouldn't be a problem in the finished beer. I'll let you know ...
I use videne to sanitise , Ye can get a 500ml bottle for 15yo yos in any chemists, the dilution quoted is what i use although I still like to rinse with boiled water to be sure
I only use sodium metabisulphate. Been using it for the last 15 years and never had a problem. It's cheap and does the job.
I also have a bottling tree and the pump thing on the top. I use the sodium metabisulphate in the solution to rinse bottles before bottling. Leave to drain and then bottle.
I use the chlorine based cleaners for soaking and removing crud from bottles that have been left to sit with the yeast in it unti it goes hard and mouldy. Some people just don't respect the bottles of the homebrewer.