Here's an idea, mad perhaps, but it must be possible. Based on the following:
1. We are importing new LME in 1.5 Kg cans at great prices, could retail at 12.95 for 3.0 Kg (2 cans); that's very cheap compared to any other 3 kg kits.
2. Check out: http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=341&pid=338 (http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=341&pid=338).
3. We stock all these items too.
According to Brouwland:
Isomerised hop extract: to adjust the bitterness of beer without boiling.
Hop aroma: to be added just before bottling to increase the hop flavour, but not the bitterness!
The aromas we stock are: "Citrussy", "Flower", "Herbal", "Hoppy" and "Woody". These are added just before bottling, so the aroma is preserved. In fact, this should give much better results than other kits because the aroma is not lost during fermentation. In theory, at least.
No Boiling Required: so just a basic fermenter etc is all that's required in terms of equipment.
Now for the challenge: how the heck do we come up with good recipes?
Any experts out there who can help with this?
That sounds interesting alright. The website doesn't appear to give an indicative dose for the isomerised hop extract? Would it be the same as the aroma hops; 5ml per 50 litres? It doesn't indicate when the isomerised extract should be added either, I assume you would add it to the FV at the start?
That works out at only 2.3ml per 23 litre batch which might be difficult to measure? You would need a small syringe or something?
Here's my recipe:
Cheat's PA:
3kg LME
2.0ml hop extract isomerised 6%
top up FV to 20L
Danstar Windsor Beer Yeast
Before bottling add:
2.0ml hop aroma BREWFERM "Citrussy"
3.0ml hop aroma BREWFERM "Hoppy"
I'd like to add some steeping grains too but maybe you want to keep as simple as possible (would steeped grains be classed as "no boiling")?
Maybe you could send on the ingredients for your favorite recipe and the brewer could do it for you??
(http://agileforest.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/dr-evil.jpg)
I was looking at these products recently but ran away because of the lack of information about them.
It's all very vague... :-\
But anyway, here's what I was thinking..
Water + LME:
The first thing would be to forget about the standard 23L brew and make it 20L or 25L for simplicity.
3kg LME in 25L water = OG 1.037 (3.64% + priming)
3kg LME in 20L water = OG 1.046 (4.52% + priming) <-- this looks better
Bittering: source (http://www.hopunion.com/1020_IsomerizedHopExtract.cfm?p4=open) This will be the hardest to figure out properly.
'Isomerized Hop Extract (ISO) is normally used after fermentation and before final filtration... close to a region of turbulent beer flow'. - So the best time to add it would be on a transfer to secondary/bulk prime.
There's a calculator here (http://hopunion-com.securec19.ezhostingserver.com/1023_CalculatorDosageRates.cfm?p7=open#2) for the amount, but it's based on the 30% extract, and for 31 gallon barrel (doesn't say if it's UK or US gallons though)
You also sell Ritchie's Hop Extract Sachet for 40 pints and Ritchie's Isomerised Hop Extract 57 ml for 90Liters, but they don't give an expected IBU...
I've emailed Brewferm and Ritchie's to find out. Lets see what they say :)
Aroma:
I'd divide the wort into 5 batches and try a different aroma in each.
So, I'd probably go with a 25L brew so that I could divide easily to 0.5ml per 5L batch.
To make up for the loss in ABV, i'd add 300g brew sugar to the mix.
Yeast:
No yeast included, so that's an extra cost. I'd probably just go for US05 or Danstar Notingham
So.... my method:
- Disolve 3kg LME and 300g brewing sugar in 25L water
- Pitch 1 sachet of US05 at 20C
- Ferment at 18C
- Once fermentation is done and it has sufficiently cleared, transfer to secondary
- Bulk prime and add [TBA]ml of isomerised hop extract
- Split into five 5liter water bottles
- Using a syringe, add 0.5ml of HopAroma to each (a different one in each batch)
- Transfer to smaller bottles for carbonation
- Mark each bottle with the aroma it contains
- Once carbonated, taste each one individually then mix and match to come up with recipes and ratios
- In future batches, add grain steeps to match style
Once a recipe is in place, the cost per batch based on HBW prices, assumed extract amounts, and no previous ingredients:
2 * 1.5kg LME - 12.95 (discounted price)
1 * 1kg brewing sugar - 2.45
1 * sachet US05 - 2.70
1 * isomerised hop extract 30ml - 2.75
1 * Hoparoma 5ml - 3.59 (leaving it as 1 because you'll probably use a mix of 2, but have half bottle left over in each)
Total cost: €24.44 (+any grain you want to add)
Extra equipment : syringe
Overall, it would be a good experiment to test these products and get some information about them, but I'm not entirely convinced that the resulting beer with be cheaper or better.
But feel free to send me all the stuff and we can trade my time for your materials, send them to Garry too and we can meet up in the well, take notes, brainstorm and synergize FTW!!... ;D ;D
Some more info on the hop oils would be great. Have been looking into them for a big ipa but the lack of info put me off. I know some of the bigger brewery's in the us use it to achieve the massive bittering required. Pliney being one.
Quote from: nigel_c on May 21, 2013, 06:42:32 PM
Some more info on the hop oils would be great. Have been looking into them for a big ipa but the lack of info put me off. I know some of the bigger brewery's in the us use it to achieve the massive bittering required. Pliney being one.
Nigel have you ever done a Pliney clone, I am looking for one as we had some at the last meet in Wicklow, and genuinely I wouldn't have said it was overly bitter.
LordEoin is probably right to suggest splitting it into smaller batches. That way you can do a proper comparison of the different hop extracts.
Would it be better to do a 20 L batch split into 4 and leave out the sugar?
@LordEoin, how did you calculate the abv of 3kg LME in 20L batch? Don't tell me you can do that shit off the top of your head :o
Legend has it that LE has done so many kits can predict ABV by dipping his finger in LME and sniffing the Yeast ;D
Haven't had a clone but have something based on it and hardcore recipes on at the moment.
For me its more of a something new to try idea not just going for high bittering which can be easily gotten from a dirty big 60 min addition of magnum. I like the idea of being able to fine tune a brew after its done if i want it slightly more bitter also.
@ ciderhead: "Smell my finger" :-X
@Garry : in 23L, 1.5kg LME = 20 gravity points (same as 1.2kg DME)
splitting into 4 would mean that you leave one flavor out.
If you wanted to keep it all malt, the 300g sugar could be replaced with 300g DME (or 500g to avoid having 200g left over)
Quote from: LordEoin on May 21, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
@ ciderhead: "Smell my finger" :-X
Did I ever tell you with my poor eyesight and a drink on me your avatar looks kinda hot :o and I know a few girls with more bumfluff than that :-*
aww. you know all the right things to say to a forum profile pic Tgirl! <3
I just banged it all into brewmate, and :
20L +3kg LME = 1.046 OG
23L +3kg LME = 1.040 OG
25L +3kg LME + 500g DME = 1.045 OG <-i'd go with this one, and try all 5 flavors.
@Brian, HBW, put up a few bottles of hop extract and collect names here for a draw.
I think they could be very interesting to play around with. I'd be interested in playing around and doing some feedback if needs be ;)
Could be a great asset for kit brewers as well. Basic kit plus hop extract could really add a lot for little work.
Would love some info on these.
Plus. It's all well and good calling a beer a clone but seeing how scares pliney is I would almost assume the clone brewer has not had the original and is following one of the online recipes. I'm not having a go but I've had cloned beers that have been brilliant but not quite as they should be. This may be down to freshness of ingredients or using whole leaf hops where the actual brewery uses extract. I just think it could be another tool in brew tool box.
Quote from: Ciderhead on May 21, 2013, 10:18:45 PM
Did I ever tell you with my poor eyesight and a drink on me your avatar looks kinda hot :o
That's the
beer cider goggles CH! Although
he she it does have fantastic tits :P
Quote from: LordEoin on May 21, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
@Garry : in 23L, 1.5kg LME = 20 gravity points (same as 1.2kg DME)
Good to know, cheers!
Quote from: LordEoin on May 21, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
splitting into 4 would mean that you leave one flavor out.
Good thinking batman, 5 batches would be better then.
Quote from: LordEoin on May 21, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
If you wanted to keep it all malt, the 300g sugar could be replaced with 300g DME (or 500g to avoid having 200g left over)
The remaining 200g of DME could be used for batch priming? Although the 1.045 OG looks better, maybe 500g DME is the way to go.
From Dirk in Brouland's Technical Department, regarding Isomerised Hop Extract, iso alha acidity 6%:
"1ml of this extract into 10 liter increases the IBU with 4."
If you put that in the product description, you're bound to sell more of them :)
So, based on that...
1ml = 40 IBU in 1L
vol hop extract (ml) = [bitterness (IBU) X Vol of beer(L)]/40
for 25L at 30 IBU:
vol hop extract (ml) = [30 X 25]/40 = 750/40 = 18.75ml
18.75 ml gives 30IBU in 25liters
but it comes in a 30 ml bottle, so lets see what 15ml (half the bottle) would do:
15 = (IBU X 25)/40
600 = IBU X 25
24 = IBU
half bottle gives 24IBU in 25 Liters
Still waiting on a reply from Ritchies
As a born-again newbie, I was wondering about the liquid malt extract. 30 years ago, when I last messed around with this stuff, I found it best to boil to get rid of a "malt extract tang" which I associated with the wort not having been boiled and gone through a hot break before concentration. Would that be the case here, or has LME been improved over the years? Probably the latter. Or am I just confused :-\
Quote from: LordEoin on May 22, 2013, 11:12:13 AM
From Dirk in Brouland's Technical Department, regarding Isomerised Hop Extract, iso alha acidity 6%:
"1ml of this extract into 10 liter increases the IBU with 4."
If you put that in the product description, you're bound to sell more of them :)
So, based on that...
1ml = 40 IBU in 1L
vol hop extract (ml) = [bitterness (IBU) X Vol of beer(L)]/40
for 25L at 30 IBU:
vol hop extract (ml) = [30 X 25]/40 = 750/40 = 18.75ml
18.75 ml gives 30IBU in 25liters
but it comes in a 30 ml bottle, so lets see what 15ml (half the bottle) would do:
15 = (IBU X 25)/40
600 = IBU X 25
24 = IBU
half bottle gives 24IBU in 25 Liters
Still waiting on a reply from Ritchies
Done, thanks. Dirk is a good guy, met him over there a few weeks ago. But we sell it in 100ml bottles. Maybe we should get the 30ml one, but its much more expensive per ml. Hmmm, maybe we should sell syringes for measuring out the stuff too, or do you think one of these would do: http://www.homebrewwest.ie/measuring-cylinder-graduated-glass-10-ml-1763-p.asp (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/measuring-cylinder-graduated-glass-10-ml-1763-p.asp) ?
@Dunkel - I couldn't tell you. Thirty years ago i had just fallen out of my mother. I don't get any tang off it though.
@HBW - Sorry, I didn't notice you had the 100ml bottles. I was looking at the Broulands' site.
at €4.51 for 5 batches worth, I doubt there's be a point in having the smaller 30ml ones.
Either would do for measuring, but I'd buy syringes over glass. I currently buy them from the vet or co-op and they only cost a few pence :)
Ever walk into a pharmacy and ask for a syringe? Those 10 cc are tiny though, would take a steady hand. Only about 6mm ID at best.
all the time ;) I put a metabisulphite tablet in it fill it with water and they are great for injecting into bubblers without putting water everywhere
This is my 10ml from the vet.
It's no bother to get down to about a quarter ml
I use it all the time :)
(http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/eoinlayton/Beer/23052013512_zps763c4a83.jpg)
Some great points raised in this thread, I've missed it as I don't visit the kit section as often as I should!
I'm tempted to get a syringe now and some iso-alpha acid extract. I might even get them just to mess around and see if I can make [insert macro lager] taste more to my liking! It's a pity the aroma extracts are randomly called citrussy, floral etc. It would be great if we could get specific hops! But that's probably not commercially viable...
I suppose that if they named them after specific hops there'd be legal problems with patented hops like Amarillo.
Quote from: LordEoin on May 30, 2013, 10:02:08 AM
I suppose that if they named them after specific hops there'd be legal problems with patented hops like Amarillo.
I would have thought not if they were distilled from said hop, but I also guess that these aroma drops are probably not 100% hop based?!
Quote from: Padraic on May 30, 2013, 01:15:55 PM
I would have thought not if they were distilled from said hop, but I also guess that these aroma drops are probably not 100% hop based?!
I think they actually are 100% hop based. This is from the Brouwland site:
"Increase the hop flavour in your beer or give it a unique touch without increasing the bitterness. The BREWFERM HOPAROMAS are specific flavour components, coming from the hop oils from pure hops. They are won out of a unique combination of extraction and distillation. Depending on the used extraction and distillation method, a specific flavour component is released. This flavour has a very distinguished profile. The BREWFERM HOPAROMAS can be added just before bottling. "
Sounds a bit like natural oil extraction from plants and flowers. Ever wonder why flowers smell different at different times of the day? Apparently, its got to do with temperature. Different aromas are released at different temperatures. Sounds like this is also how the hop essences are created (distilled at different temperatures).
You can buy down to 5 / 10ml syringes in most chemists for less than 50c - and they haven't blinked an eyelid at me whenever I've done it.
With a 5 ml you could measure down to a half ml very handily.
Quote from: onesoma on June 01, 2013, 09:30:14 PM
You can buy down to 5 / 10ml syringes in most chemists for less than 50c - and they haven't blinked an eyelid at me whenever I've done it.
With a 5 ml you could measure down to a half ml very handily.
Thats because you left the NHC hoodie in the car boot ye?
I assume you do have an NHC Hoody?
They are der-rigeur for the next seasson ( forget summer, thats tommorrow, I am talking of next winter ( September))
I gotta get one. They must have not blinked an eyelid for some other reason... ???
"Hello lovely Mr Chemist! I'd like new syringes and some citric acid please. Don't judge me! Homebrewing's addictive. I need another fix, man..."
Did anyone try the isomerised hop extract in the end? How was it?
Never got around to dedicating time, money and 5 demijohns to it... but it's back on my to-do list now ;)
I've bought all the bits and pieces needed to test this out on a very small batch.
I got all the aroma flavors apart from 'hoppy' as it's sold out.
I'm going to brew up a gallon of basic wort of LDM and carapils, then bitter it to 30IBU.
The 4.5liters will be split into 4X1liter (one for each aroma) and the leftover 500ml plain (to play with more bittering).
Hopefully I'll have it all by the weekend and be able to crack on next week :)
<< Edit: August 03, 2013, 02:56:59 am >>
Oh my god... i wish i didn't taste the isomerised hop extract raw... it's so bitter :'(
maybe i should taste a raw aroma to to balance it out a little...
What could go wrong?? ;D
edit - wow, i'm not trying that again... chewing on some chocolate grain to calm the flavors down a bit. time to get a syinge and a beer!
it's too late for this maths stuff.
I just put enough 'flower' aroma for 5liters into a half pint of 80+original IBU lager. no wonder it tasted a bit OTT.
i'll try again tomorrow. right now i gotta go pass out in a corner somewhere. no more imperial-triple-india-pale-bitter-lager...
<< Edit: August 05, 2013, 02:25am >>
The bittering is quite nice, I've been boosting beers by about 20IBU tonight (0.25ml per pint) and the extra aroma is subtle but nice (0.5ml of 1/10 diluted liquid per pint).
Getting familiar with their taste and quantities now.
One thing that's come to mind though, is that although there's the bittering bottle and the aroma bottles, there are no flavor bottles.
Any ideas on how to get the flavor profile without a boil?
I bottled these testers tonight.
Done to test 3 things:
1 - How does the LME ferment? (thank you Brian for the LME)
2 - How effective is the isomerized hop bittering extract?
3 - How much aroma do you get from the aroma bottles?
The extracts i used are here: http://www.homebrewwest.ie/extracts-hopbags-aromas-178-c.asp (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/extracts-hopbags-aromas-178-c.asp)
I made a 10L brew with only a can of LME and a half pack of Coopers yeast. No grain or sugar. OG 1.044
I was expecting the LME to finish with a relatively high FG, and I was right. FG 1.014
Doesn't taste bad at all. Sweeter than I thought it would be, with a slight apple/citrus taste.
Bulk primed at 7grams per liter. and bottled plain one as a control.
I bittered the lot to about 30IBU using 7.5ml of the isomerized hop extract.
Tasting more like beer already, bottled another.
I had about 8.5 liters left, and 4 aroma bottles (citrus was out of stock) so for each I bottled 2 of each at double concentrate, 0.1ml per pint bottle (the rate of 1 bottle per 25L brew) and 2 of 4X concentrate, .2ml per 500ml bottle (to get a real feel for it)
There was about a half pint left, so i tried it out with a few drops of floral.
The sweetness of the LME and the bittering work well together. It's beer alright! ;D
Because there are no hops or grains to mellow they should be ready to taste in a few weeks or a month.
It's been a month and I've started trying these (don't judge my morning beer, I'm on nightshift and I'm about to go to bed)
Two thumbs up for the isomerized hop extract (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/hop-extract-isomerised-6-100-ml-1568-p.asp). It does exactly what it says on the tin bottle.
It's a nice clean bittering with no boil required.
If you wanted to boost the bitterness of a kit a little bit or eliminate the 60 minute extract boil, this is the job.
In my hand is a pint of just LME, yeast and this extract (no grain or hops or anything), and it's nicer than some kits and all grain beers I've tried. Almost like a malty version of RollingRock, a beer version of sparkling RiverRock. I like it. I dub it EoinRock!
Although the head was very thin after a few minutes (but that's not the bittering's fault)
So, €4.50 for enough of this stuff to keep you going for months is a bargain.
I would recommend this isomerized extract.
I'm a little less excited about the 5ml aroma bottles though...
Ive moved on to the same brew with a double concentrate of 'woody' aroma extract and there's no doubt that it does indeed add that extra little bit to the beer, and each one has a hint of the description (woody, floral, hoppy, herbal, [citrus was sold out]).
For me though, the categories are too vague and and there's not enough 'bang for your buck' like you'll get for a little more by getting 100g hop pellets to play with (enough for 3-4 batches) and get a distinct aroma with a simple steep or dryhop.
But it's still missing the factors of a flavour boil and speciality grains.
The original challenge thrown down by HBW was: how the heck do we come up with good recipes [with no oil required]?
And it seems that the answer is by using these extracts as they were intended, as additions to and enhancers of what we've already got.
Don't get me wrong, the beers made with just LME, bittering extract, aroma extract and yeast are good, but if you're on a cost cutting excercise with no boil I think that hacking the hell out of a cheap kit like the Finlandia 1kg Ale (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/finlandia-traditional-ale-10-kg-kit-1341-p.asp) is more likely to result in a great beer for less cost.
Oh, and for the EBC and clarity nerds, image attached:
I'm really interested in the isomerized hop bittering extract. I know Russian River and a few others use similar products to get the high IBU's for bit Elder/Younger Ipa's and am planning to doing something similar for a big beer in the next while. Any more experience or notes from brewers who have use the product would be greatly appreciated.
Big beers. Go big or go home :)
Quote from: nigel_c on October 26, 2013, 11:58:35 PM
I'm really interested in the isomerized hop bittering extract. I know Russian River and a few others use similar products to get the high IBU's for bit Elder/Younger Ipa's and am planning to doing something similar for a big beer in the next while. Any more experience or notes from brewers who have use the product would be greatly appreciated.
Big beers. Go big or go home :)
It's not just used for big hoppage, a lot of German breweries use it for consistency e.g. Tannen Zaepfle
Sent from my HTC One
I get that. its a constant product you can control. Efficiency. Ze Germans love Ze numbers. I would be looking at it from a home brewers side. To obtain the high IBU that could be reached with the product a home brewer will loose a substantial amount due to the large amounts of hops needed. When your talking on the scale of 20-23 L every 500ml counts.
I love my bog beers and have this extract bookmarked for an upcoming project.
I'm looking to make my own extract, I just have to work out how to isomerise the oil, which I am confident I can extract pretty cleanly.
Sent from my HTC One
christ! you're adventurous! that'll be a labour of love if i ever saw one! I'll be interested to hear how you get on.
Quote from: Eoin on October 27, 2013, 12:29:01 AM
I'm looking to make my own extract, I just have to work out how to isomerise the oil, which I am confident I can extract pret
Hi eoin,
Done a bit of digging about isomerised hops:
Primarily its the Alpha acids that change shape slightly during the boil (as mentioned in previous that is one definition of isomerisation)
Hop oil extracts are produced commercialy by either:
Liquid CO2 at its tripple point (not recommended for home brewers)
or by extracting using ethanol.
So following the latter process you need to boil your hops in vodka for some time to extract the oils.
Maybe do two extractions?
Strain and press to get all the goodness out of the hops.
Then boil off the vodka (condense for re-use?), boil at 100C for a period of time (equivalent to the kettle phase)
Then you have to eaporate most of the water to concentrate the oils.
In order to preserve the oils you will need to do this under a vacuum at say less than 70C
Sure its not easier to buy the extract?
Anyways HTH
Some recent progress here. We now have access to affordable isomerized hop extract sachets; the resolution is 40 IBU. In other words:
- 1 sachet gives 40 IBU,
- 2 sachets gives 80 IBU,
- 3 sachets gives 120 IBU,
- etc.
Then all you have do do is dry hop using pellets.
So we just had a bright idea . . . . build your own beer kits! Proceed as follows:
- select your LME (any combination of light, amber, dark, and wheat . . . they come in 1.5 Kg containers),
- select the initial bitterness (resolution is 40 IBU),
- then select hop pellets for dry hopping,
- and if you really want to hack it . . . add steeping grains.
In theory, any beer style is possible. Imagine the fun to be had at competitions!
The big question is: is 40 IBU sufficient resolution. We could investigate adding 20 or even 10 IBU sachets so that you could have much better IBU resolution. But is this necessary (the smaller ones would probably cost the same as the 40 IBU sachets)? Or you could just use a half or a quarter of a 40 IBU sachet?
40 sounds good. As you said, half a pack can be used for 20IBU.
I presume it's calculated at 23liters?
It still just leaves bittering and aroma though, no flavor additions
Malt, hop extract and hop pellets dry hopping. How would you add additional flavors?
15-20 minute hop boil.
It's got replacements for the 60 minute (bittering) and 5-10 minute boil(aroma), but missing out on 15-20 minute (flavor)
Not sure if there's an extract to cover that.
Maybe a hop tea steep would be a good replacement.
So malt extract, bittering extract, hop steep, dryhop.
That is one cool graph! I suppose trial and error then . . . as always!
I got great results with the hop extract. Used it in an IIPA recently. SO simple to use once you work out the ml/L batch ratios. Saved a lot on loss due to the large amount of hops that would have been needed to bitter to the 90 odd ibu i used the extract too. Will definitely be using it again.
Quote from: HomeBrewWest on February 10, 2014, 06:06:54 PM
That is one cool graph! I suppose trial and error then . . . as always!
I'll do some more trial once the FV is empty.
How does that stuff compare pricewise, in a recipients to the cheaper bittering hops?
96cent for 40 liters (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/hop-extract-sachet-40-pints-487-p.asp). no gas/electric bill.
compares pretty favorably
OK, some news here. We are off to the UK in a couple of weeks to visit the Craft Range LME manufacturers. They have given us pricing on isomerized hop extract sachets:
- RRP would be about 60 cents for a sachet that adds 20 IBU to a 23 litre batch of beer.
So it would be very easy to arrive at any IBU you want (e.g. 30 IBU = 1.5 sachets, etc). If you use a small syringe, you could probably get accuracy down to a couple of IBUs.
To get this pricing we would have to order several thousands of sachets though. Is it worth getting them?
We could of course also offer a "build your own kit" along these lines:
- 3 Kg Craft Range LME,
- 4 sachets (so thats up to 80 IBU . .. . is that high enough?),
- a selection of up to 100 grams of any combination of any 4 bulldog pellets, a fine mesh nylon hop bag for them, and
- a choice of any Fermentis or Mangrove Jacks yeast.
All for about 22 to 24 euros.
Is it worthwhile, or should we just focus on new Craft Range kits? The advantage of new Craft Range kits is that we know they will be superb as they are engineered by the best recipe experts in the UK; they also use sophisticated combinations of malt extracts from all over Europe that can't realistically be achieved at home with available extracts (e.g. we are developing a new Craft Range Red Ale). The advantage of the other is flexibility, but I wonder if brewers would really want that? Do you think it would really be possible to "design" your own beer . . . . as in visualize what you want, and then select the appropriate IBUs and dry hop profile? Really in two minds about this.
Hmmmm. Decisions decisions. Advise would be greatly appreciated.
Hop oil vs hop pellets, unless the oils stay fresh for significantly longer, I don't see the advantage. However, your idea of being able to select a bespoke mix of hops up to 100g sounds very interesting. I wouldn't even worry about a kit with that myself, as I tend to pick a yeast that best suits the final beer. However since I don't brew large volume, but do want hop variety, it would be a great way to cut down on my wastage if I could make my hop mix in the order
Not sure I get this: "I wouldn't even worry about a kit with that myself, as I tend to pick a yeast that best suits the final beer. "
Hmmm, we were thinking of mixing the 100 grams of pellets into a singe vac packet . . . as its primarily intended for dry hopping so all the hops would be added together about 3 days before the end of fermentation.
Yeah sorry, rambling thoughts there by me. You're referring to kit brewing, whereas I was thinking about extract brewing. For kit, your idea is spot on. It keeps the simplicity and approach-ability while giving flavour options without having to worry about boil times.
For extract brewers who don't do a lot of brews, being able to say take three hops in sizes of say 30/30/40 (so it's still 100g) just sounded really useful. Instead of having to buy for 2-3 batches at a time, I could get exactly what I want to make the beer in one order. However, if they were all mixed together like you were thinking, that would be of no use.
I'd probably concentrate on expanding the craft range and adding a pilsner, american pale ale, english bitter and irish red to the selection.
3kg of LME + bittering to replace the 60 minute boil. So far it's fine, but then the next ingredient is yeast, then dryhop. Totally misses out on the speciality grains any flavor/aroma hop boils, all the things that make a beer to a style.
So unless you're going to also provide steeping grains, and suitable muslin bags etc I don't think it'd be worth all the weighing and repacking of hops etc.
If you were going down this route, wouldn't it make more sense to simply expand to craft range extract kits? Then craft range mashkits?
Thanks Eoin, I was kinda veering in the same direction. The Craft Range IPA and the new American Pale Ale are arriving later this week, and we are shortly going over to the UK to work on the red ale . . . Irish? Or something like the popular UK red ales? Pilsner defo on the cards, as we already have true lager yeasts. Not sure about the English Bitter . . . is there really a demand for them here?
The other reason we are going to visit the UK is to look at a whole new range of extract kits developed by one of the best brewing experts in the world. The big question is price point. Would you prefer to pay 20 euros for a good extract kit (including LME and ingredients), or would you rather pay 30 euros for a truly exceptional one?
Have a look here (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6415.0.html) to get a feel for our favourite Red Ales. O'Shea's (Aldi) and Rebel Red seem to be very popular.
Quote from: HomeBrewWest on August 18, 2014, 01:14:31 PM
Would you prefer to pay 20 euros for a good extract kit (including LME and ingredients), or would you rather pay 30 euros for a truly exceptional one?
They'd need to be truly exceptional to justify them being 4 times the price of the HBC extract kits.
Quote from: LordEoin on August 18, 2014, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: HomeBrewWest on August 18, 2014, 01:14:31 PM
Would you prefer to pay 20 euros for a good extract kit (including LME and ingredients), or would you rather pay 30 euros for a truly exceptional one?
They'd need to be truly exceptional to justify them being 4 times the price of the HBC extract kits.
These prices include the liquid malt extract. So the 20 euro option is less than HBC (when you add the LME) and the 30 euro option is about 45% extra. Question is: would people pay the extra?
When it comes to extract kits, I think it's better to just offer the steeping grains, hops, yeast and finings all measured and labeled.
Let the customer decide what malt they want. Some will want DME, some LME. They could also use these ingredients in an AG batch by mashing the grains with 4 or 5kg of base malt. Extract brewers tend to stock up on their extract of choice like an AG brewer would buy a 25kg sack of ale malt.
Just resurrecting this thread which we started years ago. The idea was to use LME cans, add bittering hops, and possibly dry hop (or add aroma oils) for aroma etc. to create beer kits. We even gave away some ingredients to try it out, but it never really went anywhere in the end.
Its interesting that some HBCs are now offering products that do something quite similar in Ireland.
We never progressed it though because we have first hand experience of real beer kit design and know its just not that easy. In reality, you need to be able to blend malt extracts and this is beyond the scope of all but the largest companies. There are many issues, the basics being clarity and head retention that need to be solved. Also, some yeasts just don't work with some malt extracts (haze is only the beginning of your problems).
Its not to say that we won't do it, its more or a question of should we do it. We can deliver Craft Range kits with balanced blends of malt extracts, hops etc. designed by the most respected brewers in the UK so we don't think we can improve on that. We can even do it at better pricing so it doesn't seem to make any sense to us.
What do you guys think? Should we offer a "build your own" kit? After all, we were the first supplier on the NHC to come up with the idea! And NHC members gave a lot of feedback on this idea.
I'd keep focus on expanding the Craft Range with quality examples of tasty styles.