Going to make my immersion chiller this weekend. These bending springs any use?
http://www.diy.com/nav/fix/plumbing/plumbing-tools/pipe_bending/Rothenberg-Bending-Spring-External-10mm-11247965
If you fill the pipe with water and then stick it in the freezer. (If your freezer is big enough?)
The ice will help hold the shape of the pipe when you're bending it.
Or expand and break the pipe in the freezer :)
Have you done this before Garry?
I found making the coils is easy, using a corny as a profile. Put weight on the corny with your chest, and wrap the somewhat already coiled pipe around the corny tightly.
The bitch is when it comes to bending the ends so they hang over the edge. Bending spring would be handy for this. But not sure if it would be long enough to bend the piece up from the bottom.
No, I haven't tried it before :-[ I saw it on another forum and tought it was a good idea?
The water would expand while freezing alright. If you had the ends of the pipe upright in the freezer wouldn't it just force the water out the ends as it expands?
Yeah, in theory i suppose it should freeze from the bottom up, so the water above should just be pushed up as it ice freezes below.
I wouldnt be leaving it there longer than required though.
I've heard of people using sand instead of water. fold over one end of the pipe tightly, fill and pack down with sand, fold over the other end tightly ensuring no air remains. Bend.
I'd try it out on a short bit of pipe first though.
/J
QuoteIf you fill the pipe with water and then stick it in the freezer. (If your freezer is big enough?)
The ice will help hold the shape of the pipe when you're bending it.
So I am following here,you have 6 metres of pipe and you fill it with water,how do you fit it in the freezer,do you bend it first ::). :D
QuoteQuoteIf you fill the pipe with water and then stick it in the freezer. (If your freezer is big enough?)
The ice will help hold the shape of the pipe when you're bending it.
So I am following here,you have 6 metres of pipe and you fill it with water,how do you fit it in the freezer,do you bend it first ::). :D
Well it usually comes coiled already so its plausible.
...
I was thinking of sand the last time i made one, but couldnt be arsed spending ages funnelling it into it.
I feel that I'm going to have a bit of fun with this.... I'm thinking 20 M of 10mm pipe. That sound about right?
I used a paint tin.
Gently does it for the last bit.
The bigger the curve the less the risk of kinking.
I used a 5 litre stock pot. No bendy spring or anything. The copper I bought was coiled already so it didnt need a whole lot more to get it right.
QuoteI'm thinking 20 M of 10mm pipe. That sound about right?
About twice too much I reckon. 10m is loads. It's the coils that sit at the top of the wort that do the most work. Those lower down are increasingly ineffective. This is because the hottest wort is at the top. Obviously, cold water should enter the chiller at the top of the coil and leave at the bottom. That way the coldest water makes first contact with the hottest wort. Sending cold water down to the bottom of the vessel chills the coolest wort and leaves the hottest wort to be cooled by the hottest coolant. Not exactly the most efficient.
Because you're only really interested in cooling the top layer of wort, more than six coils and you're into diminishing returns. More than 10 and it's just a waste of copper.
Wrapping the pipe slowly around a paint can is very feasible. Just make sure the can is big enough. It just needs to be study enough to take the pressure the pipe imparts.
/J
Hi there
For the pipe work at the top and the bottom of the coil I cut several lengths of copper pipe and soldered them in to copper right angled joints. Imagine two small pipes sticking out at the top of the coil. A small pipe at the top of the immersion chiller and a longer one to connect the bottom of the chiller. It required lead free solder and a blow b torch but it made a very neat job of things. Best thing was that I did not have to go making very tight bends.
Shanna
I used sand on a 3/4 inch pipe and bent it around a Calor gas barrel. Hell of a job as the pipe had to be heated with a blow torch.
The problem was that the sand must be bone dry, or it won't go into the pipe. I had to buy a bag of special fine dry sand, wasn't cheap. Can't remember where I got it, maybe a pet shop?
8 and 10 ml tubing comes already coiled and is easy to bend around a 10 or 12 inch diameter pot etc. without filling it with anything; the tricky bit is the ends so do them first if you can.
FP check this out http://www.woodiesdiy.com/Mobile/Product/10M-x-10mm-Plain-Copper-Tube/12679/6.0.0.19
I saw this in woodies after I'd made my own chiller. It's pre wound and just needs the end bent up for inlet and outlet.
fizzy pish - before you leg it t o woodies - have a look around the forum - i recall some one posting recentlt about some place ( maybe inside the pale ? ) that had better prices
Quotefizzy pish - before you leg it t o woodies - have a look around the forum - i recall some one posting recentlt about some place ( maybe inside the pale ? ) that had better prices
Any plumbers merchants will be a lot cheaper than W or BnQ
That stuff in woodies is very reasonably priced particularly as it doesn't need to be wound. Barrets in Maynooth charge €2.80 a metre and you'll have to wind it around a form yourself. I think Bren quoted a similar price to Barrets before for some merchant in Kildare town. You'll save €3 going to Barrets for a 10 metre length and you'll have a lot more work to do
fair point Lars :-[ ... I guess thats what I get for repeating idle gossip !!!
You'll still have to form the chiller with the woodies copper coil. Its over 20 inches in diameter & is only wrapped around three times. I made mine from one. It does help though & is much easier than bending a straight length to shape.
This is all good stuff. Good food for thought.
Rough plan:
1. Get 10 M of coiled 10mm pipe and 1.5 - 2 M of straight pipe
2. A few elbow joints, some lead free solder and another mini pot of gas for the torch
3. Coil the copper around a big cook pot from home 6 -7 coils spaced tighter together at the top. Might heat it with the torch as I go. Any extra heat is bound to help prevent a kink.
4. Using the elbow joints and and straight piping make the inlet (top) and outlet (bottom) piece.
5. buy a cheap hose pipe, cut it in half and force it over the inlet and outlet. Secure with Jubilee Clip's.
Sound for the advice!
Heating it as you bend turns it into a 2 man job. Theres really no need for heat when bending around anything the size of a corny or bigger - you wont get kinks there.
You only need to worry about kinks when bending the pipe to come back up - but you say you're going to solder.
QuoteYou'll still have to form the chiller with the woodies copper coil. Its over 20 inches in diameter & is only wrapped around three times. I made mine from one. It does help though & is much easier than bending a straight length to shape.
There's coils of this stuff in woodies Lucan plumbing section that's actually wound into about a 10 inch diameter. That was last time I checked but it was a while ago. Might be worth ringing them before calling
Jubilee clips are good but why not a compression fitting. Then attach some standard garden Hose into the compression fitting at one end and a standard garden Hose connection at the other end.
Shanna
QuoteThis is all good stuff. Good food for thought.
Rough plan:
1. Get 10 M of coiled 10mm pipe and 1.5 - 2 M of straight pipe
2. A few elbow joints, some lead free solder and another mini pot of gas for the torch
3. Coil the copper around a big cook pot from home 6 -7 coils spaced tighter together at the top. Might heat it with the torch as I go. Any extra heat is bound to help prevent a kink.
4. Using the elbow joints and and straight piping make the inlet (top) and outlet (bottom) piece.
5. buy a cheap hose pipe, cut it in half and force it over the inlet and outlet. Secure with Jubilee Clip's.
Sound for the advice!
QuoteQuoteYou'll still have to form the chiller with the woodies copper coil. Its over 20 inches in diameter & is only wrapped around three times. I made mine from one. It does help though & is much easier than bending a straight length to shape.
There's coils of this stuff in woodies Lucan plumbing section that's actually wound into about a 10 inch diameter. That was last time I checked but it was a while ago. Might be worth ringing them before calling
I think the pre-wound 10inch diameter is 8mm copper pipe, it's what I used for my own chiller. I can't find a link for it though.
You can buy hose connectors and matching tap/type connectors in B&Q or others,cheap as chips,allows you to simply connect to your copper coil. fitting connects to a 1/2" brass fitting so if you are using a smaller copper pipe then you will need to use a reducer brass fitting.
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@fizzy those springs are very good and allowed me to shape bends out of the bottom and over the top of the bucket
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_10441_zpsda3d1944.jpg)
One of the better you tube vids I've seen about twisting the pipe around paint tins
http://youtu.be/vipL11vq_g8
so this i slightly off topic - but a concern regarding chillers none the less....
throwing it in to the boiler wit h10 minutes to go always concerns me slightly that it is touching a hot element - I have 2 elements - but only one on th ego at that point
-- any thoughts - opinions - am I worrying about nothing ???
Quoteso this i slightly off topic - but a concern regarding chillers none the less....
throwing it in to the boiler wit h10 minutes to go always concerns me slightly that it is touching a hot element - I have 2 elements - but only one on th ego at that point
-- any thoughts - opinions - am I worrying about nothing ???
Have no concerns about a copper coil touching a kettle element - no problem there!
However most of us put the cooloing coil in the fermenter and run the boiling wort over the coils to sterilise the cooler. Then when the fermenter is full turn on the cold water. BTW. make sure the cooler is empty of water before trying to sterilise it!
thanks will - thats interesting way of doing it - can you tell me wahat the benefits are of that method versus chilling in the boiler Vs teh fermenter ?
Probably leaving myself open to criticism here (as in I am talking shite :-) but here goes anyway. My understanding that wort is acidic and so when putting the chiller in the wort this is going to strip any crud off the chiller and this ends up in the wort. This probably won't amount to much but I would say its like taking a shower before swimming (I prefer to not to swim in my own or other peoples bath water). I like to soak and clean the chiller in a hot citric acid solution first. This should clean the chiller of any surface crud and then sterilise it in the worth for 10 minutes. I guess it's the difference between making it sanitary (e.g clean) and sterile.
Shanna
There should be no crud on the cooling coils to start with!!
There is a big difference between sanitary and sterile: Sterile means autoclave at 15 psi for 10 mins or more, sanitary means basically clean!
If you sanitise your coil in the boiler and then move to the FV then you MAY pick up an airborn bug or 3 as the coils and wort will cool pretty quickly!
Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?
I keep my immersion coil in my shed and it might not get used for a month or more at a time. While I do keep n it covered it shows signs of both turning a darker colour over time. Let's just say it is a dark brown colour. I would not feel comfortable putting it in the wort with out cleaning it first.
Shanna
Hi will
Just to clarify I too would use the chiller in the fermenter, my point was to make sure the chiller is as clean as possible before it comes in contact with the hot wort. With respect to sanitary v sterile my understanding is that using starsan for example would sterilise the surface of what it comes in contact with. Also baby bottles for example put into a steam based steriliser for bottles would be considered sterile.
Shanna
Quote
Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?
thats what i always do !!
why is this wrong ???
are you saying i should
1. put chiller into boiler while wort is boiling
then
2 put into fv
3. pour the boiling wort into fv with chiller - (knock off the element when pouring)
note - i do wash -claen the chiller before each use and soak it in my bucket of star san / bleach vinegar for @ an hour before use
QuoteQuote
Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?
thats what i always do !!
why is this wrong ???
are you saying i should
1. put chiller into boiler while wort is boiling
then
2 put into fv
3. pour the boiling wort into fv with chiller - (knock off the element when pouring)
note - i do wash -claen the chiller before each use and soak it in my bucket of star san / bleach vinegar for @ an hour before use
Rinse chiller with water, no steriliser, no bleach nothing, JD had a great post about this last week.
Put you chiller in the boiling wort 10 mins before the end, it will sterilise.
At switch off or flameout turn on water.
If you move Chiller to FV where is all the sh*t falling out from your cold break? in your FV yuch :(
Objective over say 10 brews is to build up crud on your chiller so that you dont have fresh copper
long term exposure to star san bleach will rot through your copper eventually
To lift straight off another site
You don't want to clean your copper immersion chiller with any thing corrosive. Vinegar, bleach, etc will cause the copper to oxidize (green powdery oxide on the surface of the copper. This will cause your chiller to become weaker and more brittle over time, i.e. more suseptable to failure, especially in the high thermal gradient environment of a heat exchanger.
Ideally you want a "nice passive oxide layer" Copper and aluminum will form a slightly dull layer on the surface of the metal that also caused by oxidation. But this oxidation forms a protective layer that prevents the metal under it from oxidizing. Don't scrub this layer off, or you will be opening up the fresh metal underneath for oxidation. This cycle will continue with each scrubbing (abrasive or chemical cleaning). It will look nice and shiney, but the tube wall thickness will be getting smaller and smaller to the point where it fails -- think non-sterile garden hose water seeping into batch of beer at best, or a major catostrphic rupture at worst -- very bad.
Just rinse off the immersion chiller after each batch, and try to leave some water inside of the chiller each time, it will help to buffer some of the thermal stresses inside the chiller itself as it starts to heat up. Also wisps of steam from the end of it are a good sign that boiling is near.
ye I would say most people use the chiller in the boiler - why would you put it in the fv?
so.. for once Shiney is not good !!
me thinks will is winding me up !!
think I'll change my name to naiveToBrew !!!!
Two things:
Firstly, copper oxide CuO is the black tarnish on copper pipes and, by and large, is not soluable in water. This is why it is used in domestic plumbing. A second form of copper oxide exists Cu2O. This is red in colour and is most commonly seen when black copper oxide is left in moist air. Both are irritants and mildly toxic.
When you put a chiller in to hot wort, you are bringing copper oxide into contact with a hot mildly acidic solution. This will dissolve the copper oxide and leave the chiller clean and shiny. The copper oxide is now dissolved in the wort. No two ways about it. The open question is whether the amount dissolved is significant from a health perspective. I don't have an answer but I will simply play safe on the issue. I clean the chiller with StarSan and a rinse before use. This removes the oxide without getting it into the wort.
As regards lifetime of the chiller, it makes no difference what so ever. Here's why: the boiling wort removes the oxide anyway. The starsan removes the oxide anyway. The bare copper is attacked by the wort and starsan to similar degrees. The result is the same. Chillers do not last forever, but they will last long enough as not to matter.
So, clean the thing with StarSan and regret nothing. Brewing and cleanliness are best buddies.
---
My second point is about where to chill. Always chill in the kettle. Never chill in the fermenter. There a few reasons why:
1. Hot wort does not dissolve oxygen as readily as colder wort. It does, however, more readily react with oxygen to produce various oxidation products. These reactions products will affect flavour and aroma and are unlikely to be desired by the brewer. Cold wort will more readily dissolve the oxygen and less readily oxidise. This leaves the dissolved oxygen available for the yeast.
Transferring hot wort to a FV so that it can be cooled will expose the wort to a lot of oxygen. Better to cool it first and then transfer it to the FV with lots of splashing (cos now, we really want to oxygenate the wort).
2. Cold break is best left out of the FV. A bit is inevitably transferred to the FV and it does provide some nutrition for the yeast but this is best kept to a minimum.
3. One usually uses the boiling wort to sanitise the chiller anyway.
I am not a real lawyer, scientist, chemist, priest, shamen, or Wizard of the Inner Circle so your mileage may vary.
/JD
Agree 100% except with this bit
"This will dissolve the copper oxide and leave the chiller clean and shiny"
I just rinse before and after, I used to spray with SS before storage and no rinse, not a good idea?
Mine is turning a nice darker colour suggesting I am sealing the copper and any I have seen of the older variety in pic here are not shiny because they are not cleaned ;)
good points JD - I guess I'll carry on as normal
QuoteCold break is best left out of the FV.
So what do you do here for this ? _ what I mean is do yoy leave behind some liquid in your boiler ?
how this has come up in my head is that I have my hop strainer across the floor of my boiler - the tap is a few inches up the wall of the boiler connected to the strainer with a dip tube - I always hop with loose leaf hops in the boiler - but am considering making a hop spider - one of the concerns I have with this now - is that I always considered the hops to provide a natural filter for the break material when draining into the fv
this would now go away and I imagine I would be draining the boiler to the last drop which I presum would bring the break material with it
I've not used a hop spider but I have used hop socks. The effect would be somewhat similar, I'd imagine. I always leave a litre or more in the kettle when drawing off the wort to the FV. Not all the cold break remain in the kettle; some does end up in the FV.
My take on cold break is as follows :
The cold break is mainly proteins. If it is not removed from the wort, it contributes to a haze in the finished beer. Forming it and removing the bulk of it is an important step in producing a good looking beer. Failing to create one and failing to remove it completely will have no real flavour impact but will affect the resulting appearance (haze, etc.).
To ensure you have a good break, you need to chill fast. I use an immersion chiller and a pump to recirculate the wort in the kettle back over the immersion coils. I also add a teaspoon of Irish Moss to the boil with 15mins to go to help coagulate these proteins. Once chilled, a whirlpool brings the break material into the centre of the vessel. My dip tube has a length of SS braid positioned off centre. This avoids drawing up the break material when draining the kettle. An alternative I've heard done is to position the dip tube centrally. In this configuration the initial draw off will be mostly break material and can be discarded.
Inevitably, some break material will make it into the FV. The key is to not fret it too much. The only real downside is clarity of the finished product. It will not affect flavour in any noticeable way.
/J
All very valid points.
If you really want to brighten up old copper ( like the cooler I saw in Tubes back garden last year) then a citric acid solution will do the trick a treat.
I used to use it a safer alternative to Sulphuric acid when making model steam loco boilers!
I will certainly chill in the kettle from now on!
QuoteI've not used a hop spider but I have used hop socks. The effect would be somewhat similar, I'd imagine. I always leave a litre or more in the kettle when drawing off the wort to the FV. Not all the cold break remain in the kettle; some does end up in the FV.
My take on cold break is as follows :
The cold break is mainly proteins. If it is not removed from the wort, it contributes to a haze in the finished beer. Forming it and removing the bulk of it is an important step in producing a good looking beer. Failing to create one and failing to remove it completely will have no real flavour impact but will affect the resulting appearance (haze, etc.).
To ensure you have a good break, you need to chill fast. I use an immersion chiller and a pump to recirculate the wort in the kettle back over the immersion coils. I also add a teaspoon of Irish Moss to the boil with 15mins to go to help coagulate these proteins. Once chilled, a whirlpool brings the break material into the centre of the vessel. My dip tube has a length of SS braid positioned off centre. This avoids drawing up the break material when draining the kettle. An alternative I've heard done is to position the dip tube centrally. In this configuration the initial draw off will be mostly break material and can be discarded.
Inevitably, some break material will make it into the FV. The key is to not fret it too much. The only real downside is clarity of the finished product. It will not affect flavour in any noticeable way.
/J
+ I leave 1.5 litres behind and its factored into Beersmith, I used to tip the bucket but as JD says was getting cloudy Golden Ales and Pilsners :(
Also been putting the the Irish Moss 10 mins now instead of 15, "stone him" I hear you say, it has also helped with clearing :)