So following on from http://nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,3307.0.html that thread I decided to check out some Irish lagers.
I went for Hersbruecker this weekend from PH.
I was impressed with the water treatment, it is a soft water being used, but I was not impressed with the bittering hops at all. The varieties were uncouth and out of place, I'm not sure it's a pils.
I'll update with the different ones as time goes on. I've had Creans before and was pretty unimpressed, I'll try it again within the bounds of this article from the bottle and report back.
I had this side by side with Rothaus and Spaten, so I had some premium examples for comparison.
I am regularly hoofing southern German and Swiss pils at 2 of my suppliers in europe and have to agree, I don't think we are brewing anything true to style here.
This style can be very tricky as it picks up the slightest off flavour, and personally I have thrown 2 down the drain (before I had fermentation fridge).
Are PH covering their tracks with hop loading or is it because PH wanted to differentiate themselves from some of the generics out there and go for it on the hop loading, in any case even though I am a lager drinker, I don't drink it because its not their finest and they have better offerings.
Quote from: Ciderhead on July 29, 2013, 11:33:51 AM
I am regularly hoofing southern German and Swiss pils at 2 of my suppliers in europe and have to agree, I don't think we are brewing anything true to style here.
This style can be very tricky as it picks up the slightest off flavour, and personally I have thrown 2 down the drain (before I had fermentation fridge).
Are PH covering their tracks with hop loading or is it because PH wanted to differentiate themselves from some of the generics out there and go for it on the hop loading, in any case even though I am a lager drinker, I don't drink it because its not their finest and they have better offerings.
I think they are just using some different hops to be different and not classic. Galena and Nugget are named in the hop bill.
It may come close to a North German pils style, but I simply can't get over the earthy dirty hops that are used for bittering, not at all noble ;)
If I find anything true to style I will eat my words....so far...not tasted anything close.
Quote from: Eoin on July 29, 2013, 11:14:09 AMI'll update with the different ones as time goes on. I've had Creans before and was pretty unimpressed, I'll try it again within the bounds of this article from the bottle and report back.
Crean's from a bottle is contract brewed abroad, rumour has it by Tennants. The draught version isn't great either though, usually suffers from diacetyl. Had a chat with Tim O'Rouke, their brewing consultant and he reckons it's down to a lack of lagering time, perhaps because they are rushing it out.
Fair play for having a proper stab at tasting them.
Quote from: irish_goat on July 29, 2013, 11:50:35 AM
Quote from: Eoin on July 29, 2013, 11:14:09 AMI'll update with the different ones as time goes on. I've had Creans before and was pretty unimpressed, I'll try it again within the bounds of this article from the bottle and report back.
Crean's from a bottle is contract brewed abroad, rumour has it by Tennants. The draught version isn't great either though, usually suffers from diacetyl. Had a chat with Tim O'Rouke, their brewing consultant and he reckons it's down to a lack of lagering time, perhaps because they are rushing it out.
Fair play for having a proper stab at tasting them.
Tennants.....ok so nothing surprising is going to await me there then.
I think there is a style missing and it's Irish/English lagers, cos they have sweet FA to do with their continental counterparts.
I can't be seen to be a moaner without doing some empirical research, it's for science and all that, I will take one for the team :)
Hooker's Pilsner is excellent when available, as is Bohemia Pilsner from 8 degrees usually.
I rather like hersbrucker myself any time I have had it. Usually in bottle when it's past its best by date and going for €1 in drinkstore though ;)
Quote from: Saruman on July 29, 2013, 02:31:13 PM
Hooker's Pilsner is excellent when available, as is Bohemia Pilsner from 8 degrees usually.
I rather like hersbrucker myself any time I have had it. Usually in bottle when it's past its best by date and going for €1 in drinkstore though ;)
Bohemia is not bad......I'd need to have a go again with this review specifically in mind.
I've not seen any pils from Hooker, I'd be sure to try it if I did and will keep an eye out for it.
Quote from: Il Tubo on July 29, 2013, 02:52:40 PM
Eoin, I actually think you're only half on the right track...
What malts are being used in Irish brewed lagers? Who is using Weyermann and who is using UK or Irish malt?
I never thought of the local malt aspect. That's certainly worth looking at also.
Very impressed with Five Lamps lager....refreshing, crisp and full flavoured. Only had it on draught though
I think 8 degrees is a decent lager - but I'd have a strong suspicion it's fermented with a german lager yeast rather than a czech one.
I remember you saying that. I believe that the 5 Lamps lads are in the process of setting up their brewery at the mo though...presumably somewhere around North Strand
5 Lamps is made in 8 Degrees although their brewery kit is arriving now and getting set up somewhere in the Coombe/behind St.Jame's. Bo Bristle make Carraig Lager.
Incidentally, 8 Degrees did training at VLB in Berlin so they may have been persuaded there to stick with German over Czech yeast.
OK, so last night I tried 8 Degrees Bohmemain barefoot, this one is a lot better than anything I've tasted so far and is certainly very close to style, water treatment is good, hop schedule seems about correct and hop types seem good too. It's no Budwar, but it's certainly not a bad beer.
I have a Tom Creans to try tonight, I know they are using 34/70 as I talked to them at a stand at one point, I think taste of Xmas was the event. I don't hold out much hope for this one.
I'll grab a five lamps over the next few days....science is hard work :(
Really liked O'Hara's helles when I had it in B&C recently.
Last night I had a Creans lager to try out. I did get a bit of malt toastiness in this one, not a lot though, so I think that Shane is on the right track with the malt. Water seemed ok, soft enough, hop profile was very smooth.
In all this is quite a good attempt again, malt is the best so far, but still not a bamberg special :)
Five Lamps is probably next on the agenda. I've not seen O'Hara Helles about, is it tap only?
Quote from: Eoin on July 31, 2013, 09:12:54 AMI've not seen O'Hara Helles about, is it tap only?
For the time being it is, they're still rejigging the recipe too. I would imagine bottles are on the agenda though.
I see Beer Nut didn't care for it (http://thebeernut.blogspot.ie/2013/07/meanderings.html), but one of his gripes was that it was too much like a pils. :D
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 09:36:23 AM
I see Beer Nut didn't care for it (http://thebeernut.blogspot.ie/2013/07/meanderings.html), but one of his gripes was that it was too much like a pils. :D
Yeah, he is against the yellow fizzy stuff, but meh, his opinion is but one.
I don't tend to like the motor oil like stuff that he likes to drink.
<edit> I eat my words, he says helles is one of his favourite styles. If he says it is too pils like then it has missed the softness that is inherent in a helles.
In fairness I think he's right when he says it's not a Munich Helles style beer, but it's still pretty tasty and it's definitely a lager. Given the state of play in terms of home grown lagers that's more than enough. I think something like that which, like Schiehellian, tastes good but doesn't slavishly (and unsuccessfully) imitate imports which are readily available anyway, is probably a good thing.
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 10:23:22 AM
In fairness I think he's right when he says it's not a Munich Helles style beer, but it's still pretty tasty and it's definitely a lager. Given the state of play in terms of home grown lagers that's more than enough. I think something like that which, like Schiehellian, tastes good but doesn't slavishly (and unsuccessfully) imitate imports which are readily available anyway, is probably a good thing.
Yeah horses for courses and all that, but if something has a style on the label it should at least fit that style......no?
I guess that depends. I know what you mean, but on the other hand I think the idea of style has it's limits and I think commercial brewers are probably more interested in making a (hopefully) quality product, with available materials which they can sell at a profit than hitting a style guideline.
For instance, you could say Galway Hooker is flawed because it's too bitter to be an English pale ale and not high enough ABV to be an APA ::).
On the other hand calling a beer something which means nothing to the average lager drinker and is only going to annoy people for whom it does actually mean something is an interesting marketing strategy, even if Helles only means light in German.
You're absolutely right - I see that similarly, Carlow are calling Helles a "craft lager" as well rather than a "munchener helles" or a pilsner or something like that.
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 12:45:23 PM
You're absolutely right - I see that similarly, Carlow are calling Helles a "craft lager" as well rather than a "munchener helles" or a pilsner or something like that.
Ein Helles in Germany only means one thing...there is not the ambiguity that you are implying, you can't redefine an established style while using the style name.
Quote from: Eoin on July 31, 2013, 12:49:54 PM
Ein Helles in Germany only means one thing...there is not the ambiguity that you are implying, you can't redefine an established style while using the style name.
I think they are more defining a new style to suit themselves while abusing an existing style name. :). Wouldn't mind visiting their pub though.
Quote from: Il Tubo on July 31, 2013, 12:52:18 PM
It's also interesting that Carlow have their first tied house. Didn't know they owned any pubs.
It's their only pub, so far. Was chatting to Seamus and he said they'd consider opening more if the Kilkenny pub goes well. Would be great to see them open one in Dublin.
I'd not judge their lager just yet as they're apparently still tweaking the recipe.
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 12:56:12 PM
I think they are more defining a new style to suit themselves while abusing an existing style name. :). Wouldn't mind visiting their pub though.
Therein lies my issue, if you sell you a car and hand you a bicycle on receiving your cash....I think you'd see the problem.
What's in a name? :)
Do try it though if you get a chance, even if it's not a proper German style lager and doesn't have any biscuits in it, it's a nice pint.
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 01:11:30 PM
Do try it though if you get a chance, even if it's not a proper German style lager and doesn't have any biscuits in it, it's a nice pint.
As you can see from my other post on lagers I am going through the Irish offerings and giving an honest opinion. I am rarely in a pub, so unlikely to get that too fast, but I am willing to try.
Looking forward to dry hopping my next lager attempt with biscuits. Can't decide between chocolate digestives and jaffa cakes.
Quote from: mr happy on July 31, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
Looking forward to dry hopping my next lager attempt with biscuits. Can't decide between chocolate digestives and jaffa cakes.
Have you ever done a lager?
I have done a few. I entered two Czech lagers ( a pilsner and a czech dark) in the competition and they did ok. I've not got a fridge at the moment but I'm dying to get another one so I can start again.
Quote from: mr happy on August 01, 2013, 10:49:51 AM
I have done a few. I entered two Czech lagers ( a pilsner and a czech dark) in the competition and they did ok. I've not got a fridge at the moment but I'm dying to get another one so I can start again.
Fair enough.
biscuits is actually quite an accurate description for a good Helles or pils, so it is relevant and is a mark of the best of them in my opinion.