Ok time for me to up the anti and so last week a solar pump arrived
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1741_zps0d93e61a.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1741_zps0d93e61a.jpg.html)
Shiney I hope you spotted Sugru on 12V connections.
An old small 10L 2.2KW burco boiler I had in the attic
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1743_zps4137cc0d.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1743_zps4137cc0d.jpg.html)
A coil of copper wound around a full 2litre bottle, which was an absolute beatch to do
I'm gonna source stainless depending on how I progress with this.
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1745_zpsa422f213.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1745_zpsa422f213.jpg.html)
5 Litres of water just enough to cover the coil and coil perched just off the bottom away we go
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1744_zps263c387b.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1744_zps263c387b.jpg.html)
Coil running on an 30A STC to mess about with, set point 68, (PID in my possession, just waiting for a project box and heat sink for SSR)
open the mash tun a few air bubbles once I had primed the pump, amazing little pump, very efficient, I was getting 2.5 Litres a minute.
I put 20L in picnic cooler (mash tun) and controlled burco on/off with probe in MT.
Hole in the top of my MT and 15mm Qualpex in grid distributed the return and can be pushed down on top of grain bed to prevent hot side aeration.
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1736_zps8e4ff7a9.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1736_zps8e4ff7a9.jpg.html)
1st overshoot by 1.5 degrees, damn stc will only switch at 1 degree(I have another another one which will do 0.5), but just wanted to really test heat transfer of the coil and burco to start.
Set temp 68, switched off at 69 but carried on to 69.5, temp dropped to 67 and kicked in again and this time curved at 68.5 and back down to 67 again cycle lasting 10 mins even with circulation on.
Why am I doing this, I brew a lot of pilsners and want to be able to accurately perform Protein Rests, Beta and Alpha conversions, as an aside I am also looking forward to achieving clear wort.
Chugger pump planned in Q4 in the meantime use the little workhorse :).
Any tips gratefully received
Looks good :) I have a similar idea in my head but I was thinking of using a kettle where you're using a burco.
What size copper are you using for the coil? Looks like 15mm? You did a tasty job of coiling it.
Have you any link for the chugger pump? I'd like to replace my solar pump some time. The solar pump is a great workhorse as you say but I'm not sure how long it's going to last? Does a chugger pump need to be primed?
Stc is only rated to 10a , i'd imagined the kettle is 13a, you are better off with a pid which is 13a or above (depending on ssr used)
Quote from: barkar on August 06, 2013, 12:49:27 PM
Stc is only rated to 10a , i'd imagined the kettle is 13a, you are better off with a pid which is 13a or above (depending on ssr used)
Mines a 30 A great for running 2 kettles similar to this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Temperature-Controller-220V-30A-LCD-Thermostat-Control-Relay-w-Sensor-/350841056022?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item51afc1ab16
Quote from: Garry on August 06, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Looks good :) I have a similar idea in my head but I was thinking of using a kettle where you're using a burco.
What size copper are you using for the coil? Looks like 15mm? You did a tasty job of coiling it.
Have you any link for the chugger pump? I'd like to replace my solar pump some time. The solar pump is a great workhorse as you say but I'm not sure how long it's going to last? Does a chugger pump need to be primed?
10MM around an unopened 2L bottle of sparkling water held in a vice and would be ideal size for a second internal wort chiller.
It was a cow to get the in and return bent even with a pipe spring. The bends render the coil slighly oval but no pinch points.
Unlike our US colleagues who herms in big kegs with massive gas flow, there are loads of guys on uk forums advocating kettles and brewpots in 2-7 litre range on the basis that its easier to ramp the temperature and the critical number, like the braumeister is in excess of a degree a minute for head retention?
Like everything I brew with I carry a spare solar :) althought they are supposed to run for years, 3 points whilst I was running i heard air bubbles and I stopped and ran again, no problems after that.
I got this from chugger the other day and they do need to be primed.
http://www.chuggerpumps.com/product.php?prodid=237
its their only 230V model :( and doesn't carry CE marking...yet.
Quote from: Il Tubo on August 06, 2013, 09:43:31 AM
The difference value (i.e. F2) can be set to 0.1 on my STCs, iirc. I'll check later and report back.
just checked mine and yeah you are right so could be an option, as Barkar says though I am wondering would a 10A STC be able to handle all that flicking on and off from a 2.2KW kettle :(
Didnt realise they were rated to 30 amp that sounds interesting for heating sparge/ mash water and the like
Quote from: Ciderhead on August 06, 2013, 01:18:06 PM
Mines a 30 A great for running 2 kettles similar to this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Temperature-Controller-220V-30A-LCD-Thermostat-Control-Relay-w-Sensor-/350841056022?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item51afc1ab16
Unfortunately that site says " No posty parcels to Irelandy"
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/New-30A-220V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Thermocouple-40-to-120-/181165898747?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item2a2e543bfb
This one does :)
Quote from: Will_D on August 06, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: Ciderhead on August 06, 2013, 01:18:06 PM
Mines a 30 A great for running 2 kettles similar to this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Temperature-Controller-220V-30A-LCD-Thermostat-Control-Relay-w-Sensor-/350841056022?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item51afc1ab16
Unfortunately that site says " No posty parcels to Irelandy"
Ok who on here said they never received it and got a full refund :o
Parcel Motel if you are interested in one so
What's the reflection on the burco? Looks like Ryan Tubridy :P
Quote from: Garry on August 06, 2013, 02:21:57 PM
What's the reflection on the burco? Looks like Ryan Tubridy :P
it has been said in a certain light I bear a resemblance and could be his double 8) Ryan Tubridy x2 that is
Quote from: barkar on August 06, 2013, 02:07:29 PM
Didnt realise they were rated to 30 amp that sounds interesting for heating sparge/ mash water and the like
Always read the small print, some of the STCS are only rated to 5A :o, some of them only will do a heat or cool cycle not both!
Somebody here got caught out with that last year.
Quote from: Ciderhead on August 05, 2013, 10:59:08 PM
Hole in the top of my MT and 15mm Qualpex in grid distributed the return and can be pushed down on top of grain bed to prevent hot side aeration.
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/IMG_1736_zps8e4ff7a9.jpg) (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/IMG_1736_zps8e4ff7a9.jpg.html)
Aah so grasshopper,this plastic is suitable for potable water but does the wort also travel through it. :)
Patience young Skywalker, besides I haven't brewed in 3 months :-[ Not strictly true, last years cider gets better by the day.
I don't like brewing in any case just messing with bits.
I used a 10A STC last week for a Pilsner step mash in the Keggle / eBIAB, worked fine with some manual intervention.
Have two 2.2Kw Argos elements, use both to hit/get to strike temp. Cut power to one within 3° of target, let STC hit temp with single element.
For each step then use both to start, switch one off (the one not connected to STC) as approaches step temp.
STC was set to 0.3° tolerance, keggle was thermowrap foil & sleeping bag mat insulated. Using 35L for a full boil mash BIAB has large thermal mass, so holds temps well, temp rise easyish to monitor/control. A stir of mash to keep temp stable during heating helped, STC clicked off once temp reached.
Next project is looking at PID/SSR to allow both elements to be controlled together.
Insulation is now removable from keggle as I realised (after last brewing adventure) that although it was very good at keeping things hot, it worked against me when cooling with immersion chiller (also means I can clean messy spills).
Nice job, glad to see I'm not the only PID virgin here.
3 KW might be a bit much heat for the volume of wort my little solar pump could push around it quick enough and I'd be afraid it would be a bit of a monster caramelising wort.
Very clever idea though
I have been looking for info on thermal shock on wort but struggling to find anything, I am guessing its not good?
Somebody tried a willis heater in a RIMS system before and gave up on it. Can't remember who it was or why it wasn't good. As far as I remember he changed to HERMS.
I love my herms but have a few bugs to figure out. Sometimes it's great but sometimes it just gets stuck. I think either the flow through the mash has been a bit funny or maybe the mash temp probe was just in a bad position. I try to get the mast temp probe in the middle at the bottom of the grain bed but its impossible to know exactly where it is. A couple of times I have pumped through for 20 mins or more with no temp rise, I give it a bit of a stir and away she goes.
Would you recommend buying a 5 litre stainless pot & adding a kettle element with PID for a herms or if you had access to a burco type boiler for roughly the same price would you use that & cut it down to size to hold 5 litres? Also, what length of 10mm copper is good for the heat exchange?
The willis heater do not hold up for long and as such are a failure.
Quote from: christhebrewer on August 07, 2013, 08:59:27 PM
Somebody tried a willis heater in a RIMS system before and gave up on it. Can't remember who it was or why it wasn't good. As far as I remember he changed to HERMS.
I love my herms but have a few bugs to figure out. Sometimes it's great but sometimes it just gets stuck. I think either the flow through the mash has been a bit funny or maybe the mash temp probe was just in a bad position. I try to get the mast temp probe in the middle at the bottom of the grain bed but its impossible to know exactly where it is. A couple of times I have pumped through for 20 mins or more with no temp rise, I give it a bit of a stir and away she goes.
Noticed this the last time when we packed the mash tun with 12 Kgs of malt and as it drained it compacted so the returning liquid from the HERMS was not blending with the grain around the probe. Once we stirred it a bit the temp began to rise. For a future reference for me is when I try a big beer recipe with a full mash tun I will try to increase the liquid amount in the grain to compensate.
Quote from: Il Tubo on September 03, 2013, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 03, 2013, 12:17:49 PM
The willis heater do not hold up for long
What do you mean?
Any one that used one that I follow up on found the sticky malt passing over the heating element caused it to gum up and burn out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxcKMJ9Jn9s
Your too quick with your response,I added a moovie clip :)
I'm tempted to go down the RIMS route myself. I wouldn't be familiar with plumbing of any sort so would probably go with something like this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RIMS-TUBE-STAINLESS-1-1-2/111031228636?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16581%26meid%3D1025539172166860454%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D7839%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D111031228636%26) to get started.
Im looking at something similar to this:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=504
Ive my eye on an asparagus steamer pot on ebay for the herms pot.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 03, 2013, 01:34:23 PM
Im looking at something similar to this:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=504
Ive my eye on an asparagus steamer pot on ebay for the herms pot.
large kettle or cheap fat fryer just as good
Barkar switched from fat fryer herms to kettle herms as the fryer didnt heat quick enough.
I bought the asparagus steamer pot. SS heat exchange coil is next. You want to go splits on an order from http://www.totalstainless.ie/ ? (6 meter length of 10mm OD seamless is 9.70p/m ex VAT & delivery)
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 04, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
Barkar switched from fat fryer herms to kettle herms as the fryer didnt heat quick enough.
I bought the asparagus steamer pot. SS heat exchange coil is next. You want to go splits on an order from http://www.totalstainless.ie/ ? (6 meter length of 10mm OD seamless is 9.70p/m ex VAT & delivery)
Can I get in on that Tom?
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Quote from: St. Fursey on September 04, 2013, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 04, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
Barkar switched from fat fryer herms to kettle herms as the fryer didnt heat quick enough.
I bought the asparagus steamer pot. SS heat exchange coil is next. You want to go splits on an order from http://www.totalstainless.ie/ ? (6 meter length of 10mm OD seamless is 9.70p/m ex VAT & delivery)
Can I get in on that Tom?
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Hi yeah just to note the fat fryer i had was 450w , i am sure if you used oil instead of water you could reflect the temp change quicker . The base on the one i had was cheap tin / thin aluminium , it seemed to corrode in no time/ i had no luck with it , The kettle i have now is a 1.7 litre currys kettle. The coil is heavy duty in that it was chiller which i wrapped around it self again i can post pics here, literally when its in the kettle you are only working with probably 1 - 1.2 litre of water , which reflects quick change dependant on flow rate
I have never really done decoction or step mashing as i generally dont use lagers/ pilseners malts. I use it to invariably hit whatever mash temp i need - it generally corrects pretty quickly.
I have a thermocouple in the middle of the mash, the pid is controlled based on a pt100 exiting the kettle rather than in the mash the thermocouple is just there to ensure it pretty accurate across teh system ie what is exiting the herms is reflective of whats in the mash,
TBH is not astehetic to the eye ie shiny but it does what is supposed to , clear the mash and keep temp constant throughout the mash
I would say the surface area is key to ensuring quick temp change the bigger it is the longer it will take . I had originally intended using the hlt as both herms and hlt , gatherred that wouldnt really work due the temp change needed on a whole mass of water to that passing through a coil
Some lads on some other forum across the way have details how to buld an asparagus herms if ye are going down that route
BTW how are you going to bend stainless ?
Instead of 10mm why not 12mm seamless stainless steel pipe. If you have 10mm it makes it that bit tighter if any grain bits come through in the earlier run from the mash.
barker the seamless will bend without kinking. Harder than copper but no problem if you use a fixed pole 1 metre high that just happens to be in train stations and Tesco shopping centres and the likes. 2 pairs of hands one bending clockwise and the other anti clockwise and bending tight,voila
Quote from: St. Fursey on September 04, 2013, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 04, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
Barkar switched from fat fryer herms to kettle herms as the fryer didnt heat quick enough.
I bought the asparagus steamer pot. SS heat exchange coil is next. You want to go splits on an order from http://www.totalstainless.ie/ ? (6 meter length of 10mm OD seamless is 9.70p/m ex VAT & delivery)
Can I get in on that Tom?
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Yeah of course. We could probably get the order ourselves seeing as we're both in Galway. Easier for delivery etc.
@ Barkar - Cheers for all that. Pics would be great. Dempsey got the same ss tubing & you can bend it by hand without kinking it as its seamless. Thats what he did for his herms I think.
Edit - Dempsey beat me to it. That is a deadly idea! Il get a quote for 12mm now. Cheers. (whats the tubing around the stainless tubing for?)
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 04, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
@ Barkar - Cheers for all that. Pics would be great. Dempsey got the same ss tubing & you can bend it by hand without kinking it as its seamless. Thats what he did for his herms I think.
Edit - Dempsey beat me to it. That is a deadly idea! Il get a quote for 12mm now. Cheers. (whats the tubing around the stainless tubing for?)
Here are some pics one is of the herms , control panel was a bit of a butcher job you will see i had intended putting more plugs on it - The pid at the top was a cheap one which was relay so no good ....
The next one is a stc 1000 which was used to for lagering during fermentation, i had a chiller linked to coil in a fermentor , chillers compressor fried so only used for measuring temp in in mash, hlt copper etcc adn fermentor occasionally
The next is a pid for the herms
The second pic is copper with new dome shape lid - it allwos for better extraction though the Extractor fan adn heat is maintained better as well - no issue with dms in first brew using it which is good...
The tubing around the pipe is the counterflow that cathalbrua and I were making
Here is the 12mm pipe I bent for my HERMS pot.
Ok so hungover like a dog yesterday I tried to wire up a PID with an SSR for the herms, I have an stc1000 which controls to +/- 0.3 Degress but hey!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PID-Digital-Temperature-Controller-0-to-400-K-Sensor-With-25DA-SSR-Hotsell-WST-/390564121872?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:IE:3160
I wired it all up correctly as unit comes on and clicks at desired temp.
2 Is mains live
3 is mains neutral
13 and 14 are the thermocouple and I know they are ok got temp probe to work and reading fine, but I am really stuggling with the correct wiring on the output 5,6 and 7 from the PID to the SSR, which is the + and which is negative to the SSR. I thought it was
5 +
6 -
The theory is that when the unit reaches temperature it outputs to the SSR at connection point 3 and 4 and opens or closes a switch to allows live to pass across that is connected on 1 and 2.
I can hear relays clicking on the PID as it fluctuates but right go wrong cannot get the correct wiring to operate the SSR anybody any thoughts.
I have tested the SSR using a 9V supply and it opens an closes fine, so I know its not the SSR which is at fault.
I am thinking the PID is kaput and I need a new one.
I don't have a multimeter :-[ yet!
Can JD or any other electrical engineer mark my card?
Here's how I got mine working.
(http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2826.0;attach=2047)
My PID is a REXC100 so it looks a little different to yours.
(http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2826.0;attach=2045)
It looks like the 3 & 4 PID terminals on my diagram should be terminals 5 & 6 on your PID.
Here's (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,2826.msg33933.html#msg33933) the tread where JD and brenmurph helped me out. You might have already seen it though?
Garry you little star :-*!
Sorry I missed your thread on Hols for June
So I need a 12 transformer, easy enough, I have loads of them
I will post here this ave as to how I get on.
I should have remembered Brendans Bucket!
JD thanks for the original input on Garrys post.
Ok Garry I used your diagram and it works to a t and drives the radio which I have plugged in the top of the project box socket but as soon as my 2.2KW Burco is plugged in it triggers the main breaker?
I have an earth from the mains to the socket and I have tested the burco on another socket and its fine?
Any thoughts anyone :(
Quote from: Il Tubo on September 09, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
Is it the main house breaker that's tripping?
Check your wiring again, as you might have an earth where a neutral should be, which will drive a radio, but trip the RCD if anything big is plugged in.
In a lot of houses earth and neutral are actually bound together, but there is no RCD (old board) so you can drive things with no neutral, just live and earth. Mine is one of those houses with no RCD.
Thanks for the input.
Yep its the RCD in the garage thats tripping, there is only one earth connection which is straight from the mains cable through to the socket and its good. :'(
Have you any pics?
The SSR you're using looks identical to the one I have and I've used mine to power a 3kw element without problems.
What kind of transformer have you got to power the SSR?
Transformer
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/3yvyvype.jpg)
I did tried it on its own and it switched radio fine
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
Balls just checked all the wiring again and I must of had a loose wire as it was being pushed into project box, its a bit tight in there now alright with the transformer, as all seems to be fine now.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/eba7uqy5.jpg)
Thanks chaps.
Now to test the accuracy!
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
Heat sink doing its thing 5 degrees above ambient
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/u6yryzy3.jpg)
I am wondering does the constant cycling on and off not bugger the element in the burco?
Oh Jesus it's way overshot and still powering on and off wtf
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/he2aqy4u.jpg)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
thanks, it all got tipped and a big blow job ;) before it was sealed up for the last time and ids now finally working.
Garry I just noticed your heat sink on the outside very clever, I have a good few holes drilled so I will watch the temperature.
it settled out 5 above target but like the stc you can calibrate to reflect the difference.
Quote from: Il Tubo on September 09, 2013, 07:37:04 PM
What was the issue?
Sent from my ZX81
As above
" I must of had a loose wire as it was being pushed into project box, its a bit tight in there now alright with the transformer, as all seems to be fine now."
John, Just check the spec of the SSR: Most of these are now spec'd for 5 volt Arduino type control, (some even down to 3.3 V) You MAY be OK with 12 Volts but just check the specs. May just need a 5V supply!
There ARE some controlers that have an internal 5V supply and so can switch a SSR directly. Most just have relay contacts.
RTFM!
Thanks Will, the input is 3-32V dc so I should be ok
Very good! Im a few steps behind you. Still building my asparagus pot herms vessel but made a good start last night:
(http://i.imgur.com/37IdMpnl.jpg)
Those lock nuts from ebay are the business. Leak free fitting here with ease. Had to give the pot a tap of a hammer to flatten it so it the element would sit flush but all good so far.
The pot holds 2.5 litres. By the time the coil goes in it'll hold a lot less making it perfect for herms (hopefully)
So does my mash liquor enter the coil at the bottom & exit at the top or vice versa? Thanks.
Nice job, rather that have to drill your pot just run the coil through the lid and put some bends on as you would a wort chiller
I think we had this fluid heat transfer discussion elsewhere on chillers and on chillers it came down
1) It doesn't make any difference
2) the hot wort is at the top so for maximum heat transfer expose the cold water at the top first
3) Your transfer fluid gains more heat transfer as you progress through the coil so transfer from bottom to top
Personally I have always been in favour of No 2, so for herms the mash tun goes straight to the coils on the top first where all the heat is.
My coil is suspended 5-7cm off the bottom away from the base of the burco
Tbh at our level I am not sure it makes a whole hill of beans.
No 2 makes sense. Cheers.
@Hob Bomb
I've been keeping an eye on this thread with a view to doing something like this myself. Initially I thought your idea of the 2.5 heat exchange pot was a neat and tidy idea. Now I'm a little concerned.
Its all to do with heat transfer. I may be way off here so if anyone here is a heating engineer or has a better handle on the physics involved, I'd appreciate their input.
I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that we're getting 100% efficiency of heat transfer. In reality, we'll get less.
As I see it, assuming you'll be trying to do a step mash and your mash tun has 15L of liquid in it. To bring this from 55 oC to 68oC, you'll need to put heat into system of at least 195000 (13oC increase by 15000 ml) calories. This assumes the liquid in the mash tun is plain water as well. An actual mash will require even more heat.
If you were heating the mash tun directly, the heat would transfer directly from element to liquid as fast at the element could deliver it. I've seen this step take 15 minutes when directly heated so we'll go with that heat transfer rate. This is about 13000 calories per minute. The heat input is down to the surface area of the element mostly so it matter little how much water is being heated, the same heat will be transferred per minute.
Considering your HERMS system, you will be indirectly heating the mash by passing it through the hot water in the 2.5L heat exchanger pot. This means that the heat in the HE pot will be put into the mash tun as fast as the HE coils will allow. For the sake of argument, lets assume that the coil is 100% efficient and that all the heat in the HE pot will be transferred to the mash tun as fast as the heat is put into the HE pot.
So, assuming we can keep it hot enough, the HE pot will have about 6 time less water in it than the mash tun. To increase the mash tun heat by 13000 calories per minute, the heat in the HE pot will need to increase by six times that. Since the liquid volume in the HE pot cannot change, the only way to increase the heat is to increase the temperature by 6 times but since we are heating water, we hit a hard limit of 100oC. This means that for our 13oC rise in the mash tun, we need to see a 78oC rise in the HE but we can only manage a 45oC.
The inevitable consequence is that we cannot get the mash tun up to temperature in the same time as it would take were we directly heating the mash. We need to extend the time. In the above calculations, we would need to extend the time by a factor of (78-45)/45 or 73%. What would have worked using direct heating and took 15 minutes will now take 26 minutes. In that 26 minutes the HE pot will need to remain at 100oC. This is boiling temperature for water. Your pot will boil dry before the step completes.
I contend you need a bigger HE pot.
/J
Im not trying to heat all the mash liquor at once though. Im using a pump to recirc the mash liquor through the HE. With a smaller volume herms pot it reacts much quicker when you want to increase temp. Flow rate on my current pump is 8 litres p/m but Il be going a little slower than that as I dont want to turn my grain bed to concrete. In a 15 min step my entire mash liquor will have passed through the herms coil a shit load (to use a technical term :)) & il hopefully be able to hit my targets & hold it there. Im pretty sure my 2.5 litre pot will be fine as lads on here & other forums are doing fine with 1.7 litre kettles as herms. If Im not though il be the first to post about it. :)
Yeah with reduced flow rate and the volume of water in your coil you should see pretty quick temp increases . A pid is self learning so it shouldnt overshoot - it may on initial auto tuning stage but after that should be fine. I set pump usually to 8- 10v of power (dont know how many l / min but it is a slight bit more than a trickle and considerably less than full bore!) Similarly you ar adjusting the power to the element based on the temp of the wort leaving the herms / entering the tun. Some might say it would be better checking temp in the tun as an adjustment in the herms but temp may not be equally spread across the tun.
JD complicated but very valid points, my thermocouple is in the middle of the mash grain bed and because I spread flow of wort uniformly across the top of my grains I know thats my tun temp.
If I start at 60 with a target of 68 and 4-5kgs of grain and about 13l of water with a solar pump I can circulate 7L per minute, I am getting temp rise by between a degree to 1.5 per minute, more that this with a stronger pump and potentially you compact the grain to a concrete block and less that this and as you point out it takes an age, so about 6 mins to do the above.
In the states they were big fans or large coils in their HLT, but there is no quick response to immediate requirement for temp increase if you have to heat 30L of water, even on my HLT with 2 elements its takes over half an hour to boil.
When I fly sparge even though my temps are good from HLT I still pass through the herms, to wash out and also ensure temp
I guess the reason HB and I are doing it is it gives much better consistent control of mash temp with minimal overshoot perhaps a degree on first heat, but with the flow its only overshot for a minute, so unlike direct heating with gas or underback where you can blast it but tricky to hit and hold your numbers.
I was reading last year about thermal shock and this process avoids that obviously.
To me one of the big things is the quality of the crud from the hot break, there isn't any!, whereas in the past I used to find myself scooping it off.
Controlling and maintaining is a doddle as well and because of the constant throughput.
HB I should also point out here I boil or pass through a volume of boiling water through pump and herms at start to give everything a good swill out and then I backfill hlt to bring water down to required strike temp.
My HERMS pot uses a 2.2Kw element and heats a 10 Litre pot. What I found was instead of heating the HLT and transferring hot liquer to the Mash Tun to blend with the grain I can instead put the required amount of liquor into the Mash Tun and use the HERMS pot to heat it up. this free's up the HLT for sparge liquor. :)
Dempsey, what sort of transfer rate are you getting?
I'm sticking to my guns about my concerns over the pot size. Ciderhead and Dempsey use bigger pots. Ciderhead is getting up to 1.5 degrees rise per minute and he's using a 10l HE pot. The mash recirculating many times just means the heat in the HE pot get to the mash quickly. It does not mean that the HE pot has any more heat capacity.
The heat going into the mash tun has to come from the water in the HE pot. The pipes and pumps used, no matter how good or bad they are, will only interfere with that transfer. They cannot improve on it. It's thermodynamics and there are no truer laws in all physics.
If, as HB is doing, a 15l mash tun is to be temperature controlled by a 2.5l HE pot, then if the mash tun is to be raised by 1 degree, the HE pot, assuming the element is switched off, must drop by 6 degrees. The element in there so the HE pot can replenish that lost heat. The pace at which the mash tun can be heated is the rate at which the HE pot can be replenished divided by six.
If all the system is to be used for is single infusion, then the system will work fine. As a means to stabilise the mash temperature, the pot size is fine. My concerns are if the system is to be used for step mashing. Going from a protein rest temp of 50 to a sacharrification temp of 67 will cause the HE pot to boil dry, I fear, and the 67 will not be reached.
Hopefully I'm spouting rubbish. I'm going to be seriously interested in the performance of HB's heat exchanger. There'll be no one happier when his HERMS works perfectly. I'm just a wee bit worried it won't.
/JD
Your logic is based on science. I cant really argue with that - it wasnt my best subject in school. Im basing my herms on other peoples designs already in use (particularly the kettle herms) I wanted to build something of similar size but with a nicer finish. Barkar uses a currys 1.7 ltr kettle as a herms with no issues (hopefully he'll chime in on his attempts (if any) at step mashes). I hope you are spouting rubbish too. If you arent Il only be out 20 quid as all the hardware can be swapped over to a larger pot.
Luvin this discussion :)
Just went and measured vol in my burco and as copper displaces, I have just 5L of water to cover over the top of the coil, I have a makey up plastic lid but didn't notice a huge boiloff last couple of times.
Heres the crunch number for you JD, I have just over 5M of coiled copper in there so I guess I am getting optimal heat transfer? I have 10MM so thats over 1.5L right?
@ JD. There is a mistake in your logic I believe.
Look at it from the other side. If a pump can transfer 11 L per minute. so 22L are pushed every 2.min. In other words I can put entire mash through HERMES every 2 min.
There are three factors.
1. coil needs to be long enough to heat mash to a target temperature.
2. HERMES heating element needs to sustain heat output of the coil.
3. flow rate.
So if I have heating element of 4.5 kw It is possible to make coil with similar heat transfer properties.
Look at it as a heating element inside a mashtun that has very thick walls. you just need a large surface to transfer the heat.
I generally get brainfreeze re anything regarding science :)- i just followed what i had read form other forums which suggest the smaller the pot the better the change in temp , as you will probably recirculate the mash water numerous times through the herms you will/should raise the temp at every loop etc. I have 2.2kw element to heat 1.2 litres at every crossing. The larger the water size the less kw you have per litre
In relation to step mashes i haven't really had to need to do that , generally don't brew pilsners or lagers.
What i have found is that where i have missed mash temp for one reason or another i have managed to raise the temp comfortably to desired temp. One instance i didn't heat the tun before doughing in the tun - mash temp was 55/6 c - i wanted 66-68 - recirculated and in approx 5 - 10 minutes it was where i wanted - wasn't ideal nor planned but did constitute a step mash.
I can have a play on friday to see will it raise temp sufficiently by 15 - 20'c. from 40 to 60 odd to 70 etc. in the interests of science etc. :)
My 2c...
Not only are you heating the mash, you are cooling the Herms Pot.
This means that the Pot does not boil for the duration of the Heat exchange as the intermediate liquid is being cooled as heat is being transferred.
As it is not boiling, the pot does not boil-dry.
Barkar's real life numbers are the most telling. They trump all the philosophising I was doing earlier. I'll concede in the face of hard facts.
Thinking about it further, Johnrm has hit on the flaw in my argument: I failed to include the simultaneous cooling of the HE pot. It is this that will prevent any boil off.
@ Ciderhead
So you have 5M of coil and its got a 10mm diameter and your question is 'what's the volume of liquid displaced by the pipe'? Not as easy to figure as it might first appear. The pipe, when straight, has a capacity in millilitres of L x R2 x PI. L is pipe length in centimeters = 500, R is the pipe radius = 0.5 and PI=3.14159. This amounts to 393ml. If your question was about how much liquid is inside the pipe, the wall thickness needs to be subtracted from the radius and the above equation recalculated.
With the pipe coiled into a helix the equation is more complicated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_%28mathematics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_%28mathematics%29). Note that this article acknowledges that its formulas doesn't take into account the distortion of the pipe that occurs when it's bent into a helix.
I think I'll pour it into a bucket and measure it ;D
Classic practice v theory here. Some tests would be great Barkar. Seeing as its all about surface area could I use a plate chiller as a HE? Pump + recirc x temp water through one side & pump mash wort through the other? My plate chillers surface area is 0.36 m sq.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on September 11, 2013, 11:41:59 AM
Classic practice v theory here. Some tests would be great Barkar. Seeing as its all about surface area could I use a plate chiller as a HE? Pump + recirc x temp water through one side & pump mash wort through the other? My plate chillers surface area is 0.36 m sq.
are there not issues around excess proteins and particulate sticking in your chiller that normally are on the bottom of your boiler?
i know nothing about plate chillers ::)
I will do a practical test later on. I will put 20 Litres in the mash tun check its temp and use the HERMS pot only to raise its temp.
This should be a good test, although the thermodynamics of Water vs Sweet Mash will be slightly different.
OK ran the test. Put 20 Litres of water into Mash Tun
HERMS temp was 16.3 C
Mash Tun temp was 16.1 C.
Switched on the Herms Pump and the Herms Heating element at 18.55pm. Target temp set at 50.0 C
@ 19.17 pm
HERMS temp 35.7 C
Mash Tun temp 34.0 C
@ 19.32 pm
HERMS temp 50.0 C
Mash Tun temp 48.9 C
HERMS heating element switched off at the 50.0C HERMS pump continued to recycle water.
@ 19.33 pm
HERMS temp 50.6 C
Mash Tun temp 50.0 C
Despite the HERMS element switched off the temp still continued to rise
@ 19.37 pm
HERMS temp 51.4 C
Mash Tun temp 52.2 C
@ 19.44 pm
HERMS temp 51.3 C
Mash Tun temp 52.1 C
Temp had peaked and was now falling back. I found that with grain in the Mash Tun this was better controlled. :)
I done something similar
I tried same test 21-2 litres in closed system ie tun and recirculating coil (approx a litre in pipes) ,
Ambient temp was bang on same as Brians 16.3 both herms water tun and set at this
I dialled in 41 ish into herms pid
I put a thermometer in the furthest part of the tun from the return and used that as evidence of the minimal temperature in the tun - while both probes were equal at the start - there was approx 8 degrees differential between it and the Herms probe once the element started
Measured in 10 degree increases in tun thermometer rather than probe out of herms coil
16.4 - 26.4 10c in tun 8.5 minutes
26.4 - 36.4 again 17 minutes(8.5 minutes in step)
41c ish met in tun at 20 minutes
Turned off herms once temp reach let water recirculate until the temperature between the 2 equalised
Set pid to 68 again measured in 10c increases in the temp probe in the tun - reached 61 bang on 17min ie 20c jump
As the pid was set to 68 it took another 10 minutes to equalise, i am sure if it was set higher it would have come about quicker as the pid was only pulsing the heat on and off for the majority of this)
Not sure which is more efficient
I can t really explain the differential in temp between the 2 probes as thermal loss as a result of
1. Size of tun - 80 liotres
2. 1 Metre of return from exiting herms back to tun
3 Lag for equalisation (?) of water temp across the tun - probe was set furthest away from return
4. Water in coil at any given time was 250 ml
5. 2 different probes 1 stc v pt100 reaction speed of temp change maybe quicker than stc probe
Super work lads. Thanks!
Excellent results. My worries are completely unfounded. That last 17 minute step of Barkar's experiment is the very case I was concerned about.
/J
@JD, Any more science that you want us to shred? ;)
'In theory practice is perfect, but in practice it isn't'
Its good to question these things. Im just glad my little pot project has the green light again.
Quote from: johnrm on September 12, 2013, 09:52:06 AM
@JD, Any more science that you want us to shred? ;)
'In theory practice is perfect, but in practice it isn't'
I think it was Garret Fitzgerald who said, "That's all very well in practise but what about in theory?".
Hands up, guys, I missed a bit on this one. :-[ It happens. If I was to be precious about it, I'd have been better advised to keep the mouth shut. As it is, I'm a bit thicker skinned than that, so expect more observations/questions/worries/warnings, etc. as and when the mood strikes me. :P
Speaking of which, where does everyone stand on the question of the flat earth theory? How about Intelligent Design? Perpetual motion? Anyone?
/J
JD keep asking those sorts of questions it makes the forum 10 times more interesting and by putting forward logical statements and sharing we all understand our processes better.
I promise to post here my results on next brew day.
Ill bet you had 10k under the mattress on 31/12/1999 tho:)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
@JD, Good on ya for getting the grey matter cranked for the rest of us! :-*
Perpetual motion. I had a go at that. tried to build one using rare earth magnets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqG-TL0WnjE
This is a good video but he does not let you see him switching off the compressed air that he uses to make it go. ::)
Quote from: JD on September 12, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: johnrm on September 12, 2013, 09:52:06 AM
@JD, Any more science that you want us to shred? ;)
'In theory practice is perfect, but in practice it isn't'
I think it was Garret Fitzgerald who said, "That's all very well in practise but what about in theory?".
Hands up, guys, I missed a bit on this one. :-[ It happens. If I was to be precious about it, I'd have been better advised to keep the mouth shut. As it is, I'm a bit thicker skinned than that, so expect more observations/questions/worries/warnings, etc. as and when the mood strikes me. :P
Speaking of which, where does everyone stand on the question of the flat earth theory? How about Intelligent Design? Perpetual motion? Anyone?
/J
No bother in fairness got me thinking about my own set up in that i haven't used the rig to its full potential. Still dont know if it identifies what is the optimal size of pot vs element vs heat transfer, everyone has a unique rig that works or they understand thru experience and twig to run during their brew day - Johnny Cashs "one piece at a time" comes to mind ....
cool video btw
I used to collect stc's now it's PID's she is gonna kill me ::)!
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/13/e6erejyn.jpg)
Sent from my Fukushima Daiichi Geiger counter
Ok I know its on Discovery but:
What about a new forum:
BEER MYTH BUSTERS
We take a myth or hearsay and test the claims!
BTW: We are doing it already but would make for great font page articles!
Ciderhead, I think there was a typo in your post that C should be a D. I've seen ya hanging out on some dodgy inner city streets...... I was however with ya at the time!
Love the idea of Beer Myth Busters! Will_D