The topic was raised today on the forum and there were a few surprises. Something I'm passionate about is Nutrition and Health and beer is very much in there.. I earned numerous top qualifications in Nutrition, Exercise and Health including a Master of Science degree and my clients include Kildare County Council and numerous other corporates.
As many of ye know I am a passionate and enthusiastic brewer and the health benefits of beer has been known to me since the 80's when I first start drinking real ales and then brewing them while all my mates lashed back fosters and carling.
I think the subject will appear much more regularly. Some people both in my professional work recently and on the forum today asked about evidence for the benefits of alcohol moreso beer. I have reams (hundreds of hours scientific literature) on hand relating to beer, but morso the ingredients / componants of beer including alcohol, every one of which is beneficial for health when consumed in moderation and regularly.
One of the things Im faced with regularly when speaking on health is " is red wine really good for u"...people seem to know / be aware that wine is potentially good for heart disease prevention, it may be, however a bottle or two per night to wash down the pizza and chips may not be so healthy, same applies to beer in excess and as part of a bad diet. What people dont appreciate is that pretty everything about beer is good not restricted to the physiological..theres social and psychological benefits as well.
Beer is a really important part of life and unlike wine...beer has always been available to the masses where wine hasnt, beer contains far more health benefits than wine does.
We have a section on food which could evolve.
heres a video for anyone interested in the subject, in fact I would like a forum on the topics mentioned in the video
From 11th Congress of the European Federation of Nutrition Societies (FENS)
Palacio de Exposiciones y Congresos in Madrid (26th–29thOctober 2011)
http://www.beerandhealth.eu/php/index2.php?doc_id=28
The Germans call it 'Fluessiges brot' which translates to liquid bread.
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which came first do u think? I was at a nutrition seminar with allesandro Ferreti who was lecturing on Gut Health. He spend some time talking re probiotic yeast and the powerfull little creatures, on a lighter note he explained that for many years during the world war the brits primarily lived on beer, bread and watercress and lived perfectly healthily despite working hard graft ;)
I think they go hand in hand, the brewery and the bakery sat side by side throughout history and shared their wares.
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Quote from: brenmurph on September 24, 2013, 10:01:30 PM
... on a lighter note he explained that for many years during the world war the brits primarily lived on beer, bread and watercress and lived perfectly healthily despite working hard graft ;)
Probably coz' the alcohol killed the liver fluke eggs found in contaminated watercress.
Watercress is a delicious wild food, however, if you are not sure of the water source and what animals have access to it ( sheep and cattle ) then be very careful.
I spent a lot of times on a Welsh hill farm and the WC was a no-no!
I dont think anyone has a problem accepting the health benefits of moderate drinking, but whats 'moderate' and in reality, how many of us drink moderately?
Its not as simple as jut drinking moderate drinking. The potential of Beer is superb as part of a healthy diet. In my first post I stated that a recomended intake of beer to wash down the kebab and chips is not the way to go.
Moderate drinking is in many ways simply not overloading the liver. Moderate drinking could be 5 litres a day, who knows. Alcohol harm is not just about Alcohol Induced fatty Liver Disease its a whole host of physical and psychological harm when we drink to the extent that the liver is overloaded and produced toxic byproducts, days are mist off work, domestic abuse occurs and so forth.
Sensible drinking is where a smaller amount of lets say beer :) add highly nutritious food componants to the diet, blood pressure reduces, adrenal hormones are stable, sleep generally improves and we become happier and more relaxed.
Did ye read the Altech t-shirts?
"Beer is proof the GOd loves us and wants us to be happy" :)
Quote from: Will_D on September 25, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
Quote from: brenmurph on September 24, 2013, 10:01:30 PM
... on a lighter note he explained that for many years during the world war the brits primarily lived on beer, bread and watercress and lived perfectly healthily despite working hard graft ;)
Probably coz' the alcohol killed the liver fluke eggs found in contaminated watercress.
Watercress is a delicious wild food, however, if you are not sure of the water source and what animals have access to it ( sheep and cattle ) then be very careful.
I spent a lot of times on a Welsh hill farm and the WC was a no-no!
same could probably be said for picking berries from the hedgerow, there would be a risk, as there is with "ready to eat" salad sold in tesco and other supermarkets. Food is fairly safe today, probably safer then a century or two back, however immune systems are shot and hence the rapid rise in every preventable disease known to man.
Can watercress be bought in ireland, dont see it mush in supermarkets...I often see it at health shows and soforth
Quote from: Lars on September 25, 2013, 05:14:08 AM
I dont think anyone has a problem accepting the health benefits of moderate drinking, but whats 'moderate' and in reality, how many of us drink moderately?
I drink moderatly..
i had about 6 beers / ciders at the apple farm weekend, I have two glasses per night at home, usually a few tasters and when I go out I pretty much always have 2 or maximum 3 pints and I dont really sit in pubs knocking back pints. Thats my way of doing it and I love it. I drink from small glasses like in many euro countries e.g.dusselforf and sorta hate the fact that its not cool in Ireland to drink from smaller glasses, thats a shame, even in UK it is perfectly normal to have a half whether ur an oul lad or a lagerlout and the beer costs HALF unlike in Irish pubs and hotels ( 5 euros a pint and 3.75 for a half, disgraceful practice).
So thats another item we need to deal with as we progress through the craft beer revolution.... and promote real beer and in my case beer & health promotion
Quote from: brenmurph on September 24, 2013, 10:01:30 PM
which came first do u think?
It takes less effort and technique to process grains into a kind of primitive beer, than it does to make bread.
I can imagine early people collected wild grains and may have processed them into a kind of porridge. If mixed with fruit and left aside, it would ferment quite quickly. Primitive malting, as a process could easily be discovered by accident if stored grain got wet. There is also evidence that what we thought were cooking 'pits' heated with hot stones, may have actually been the worlds first mash tuns.
There is an egyptian 'beer' that is made by breaking half-baked loaves of bread into water - the purpose of the loaves was to keep live cultures storable and safe. So what we think of bread, may have actually evolved from an advanced process for making beer.
Indeed Russian Kwass is a beer/bread hybrid.
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And I know some etymologists believe "bread" and "brewed" come from the same source.
I'm in complete agreement that more should be done to publicise the nutritional value of moderate beer drinking. Red wine has all the headlines but study after study has shown that it's the alcohol itself that is responsible for the cardio protective effect of moderate consumption. Moderate drinkers are less likely to suffer from heart disease than teetotallers.
It's a good question what constitutes moderation. The current UK advice of 21units per week for a man and 14 units for a woman is likely to be overly cautious, because it is based on what subjects admit to drinking and people are more likely to underestimate their drinking on such surveys.
If you set the upper limit on moderation at the point where health outcomes at that limit were as bad as teetotaller outcomes, moderation might be as high as two litres of ordinary beer a day.
@brenmurph
The UK beer scene is great. Big difference in prices all over the place, but also stunning value to be had. If you are ever in London, try and find any of the Euston Tap, the Holborn Whippet or the Pelt Trader. Stunning beers, sourced direct from breweries. They are starting to bring in US beers on keg (Rogue/Lagunitas IPAs for about £2.50 a half) - stunning deal.
Half a pint costing you half the price of a pint is also a big deal - it creates an environment for appropriately drinking stronger beers, and doesn't punish those who wish to consume in moderation.
In fact I think that if craft beer is to really take off in Ireland (meaning stronger beers become available on cask or keg), then the half pint needs to cost half. I have drank 8% beers in pints, but I have a bit more sense now.
Back on topic: The correlation between beer & social engagement is a good one.
@ upsidedown
"Red wine has all the headlines but study after study has shown that it's the alcohol itself that is responsible for the cardio protective effect of moderate consumption. Moderate drinkers are less likely to suffer from heart disease than teetotallers"
Agree and disagree.
Red wine has the reputation to be rich in polyphenols flavonoids and so on and has antioxidant properties. When considering the evidence about the lifespan and healthspan of wine drinkers you have to consider who are wine drinkers, where is wine drank and what is the socioeconomic status of wine drinkers included in the studies. Wealthier people drink wine, its often consumed with food, its consumed in a relaxed setting and is often associated with warmer climates like france and the med where they consume / have a culture of fresh foods first. So now look at why wine drinkers live longer and have less heart disease...is it the wine?
re beer
theres a 1300 page book published by elsevier scientific comprising an absolute mass of scientific evidence relating to beer AND HEALTH in disease prevention. The evidence is overwhelming on beer and its constituents not limited to:
folate content, probiotic yeast, Silicon content, mineral content, fibre content, B vitamin range, the low alc compared to wine and the type of sugars contained within.
beer is very different nutritionally from wine and its this stand out nutrition quality that makes beer so nutritious. Im talking real beer here.. not filtered heineken unfortunatly for the masses, commercial beer is still superior nutritionally to wine in many respects but unfiltered real ale with some live yeast is in my opinion a superfood up there with garlic, fish and all the other well-proven foods
heres the typical graph showing relative risk, you should see as alcohol grams goes up from zero risk drops and at 35 grams alc per day there is still no risk the the risk rises sharply.
this tries to explain how much alc is safe long term. A litre of 3.5% beer poses no long term risk
MAX PROTECTION: RR= 0.81 ALCOHOL INTAKE = 6 gr/day
REVERSION POINT: ALCOHOL INTAKE = 42 gr/day ( above this, risk increases compared to abstainers)
Am I correct in thinking a litre of 5% beer would be about this 42 gram level?
I see the reasoning forming here "but love, a nutritionist in the club says it's healthy"
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500ml of 4.3% beer is 21.5gram alc
500ml of 5% beer is 25 gram alc
its a percentage
@ eoin
The facts are that it is healthy.
Imagine that a hard working night shifty worker cant buy a beer on the way home from work either in pub or off licence,
However a schoolkid can stop at the school sweetshop and buy as much sugary junk as they like ( can of coke and 2 sausage rolls for a euro at our local school)
The harm caused by sugar is extraordinary compared to alcohol (diabetes, heart disease, mental and emotional imbalances and on and on) and alcohol hails into insignificance when compared together.
Beer is highly nutritious and is actualy disease preventative which is in fact like a magic pill compared to a large bulk of foods on the supermarket shelves (sugar products, bread, processed meat and processed wheat products)
I'm only messing Bren, I'm aware of the benefits.
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It'd be a case if being careful Shane, I think it's much better if the kids are introduced by Da rather than knacker drinking bad cider. In Germany 16 year olds are allowed to drink beer only and must leave the pub at 12, it's much more civilised.
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spain & portugal I think is 16 as well or less.
I was intrduced to beer by me oul lad at about 14...I was only ever allowed have 2 pints in an evening
was homebrewin since about 15 with John Bull & Kwoffit Kits and held a Friday event for the work lads every friday for about 3 years where we drank a couple or rotakegs on a friday btween 10 of us.
i can count on one hand the amount of times Ive been pissed in my life.
I agree shane, introduce kids early dont stigmatise beer to kids do the opposite tell them all about how good it can be.
BTW theres a ton of evidence that low alc 3% beer is now favoured by athletes and works better than water, sports drinks, milk, and home made sports drinks :D theres a lot to beer that our nanny state wont tell us ::)
Quote from: brenmurph on September 25, 2013, 05:56:07 PM
500ml of 4.3% beer is 21.5gram alc
500ml of 5% beer is 25 gram alc
its a percentage
Would it not be a proportion of the alcohol by weight? So a 500ml bottle of 5.0% abv would work out about 20 grams alcohol (abw = approx. 0.8 x abv)?
Hi guys
Won't disagree that beer in moderation is good for you as I know don't enough about the state of scientific literature. I am not casting aspersions just have to take your word on it. However I know from anecdotal evidence that alcohol in all forms e.g wine, beer, spirits etc is the most widely abused "legal" drug. The addictive nature of alcohol represents a real problem for people at all levels of society. Have discussed with others (brother and his colleagues work in mental health profession) and I have seen first hand cases where people (at work especially) with mental health issues whether it be from extreme stress, depression, manic depression etc, self medicate using alcohol. I would describe them as functioning alcoholics who have an underlying health issue that they don't get addressed.
The problem with pushing beer as a good thing and promoting its benefits is that it is hard to maintain the balance of moderation when the more you consume the harder it is to maintain moderation. Judgement, impulse control, aggression and a whole host of other negative behaviour and emotions start to kick in.
I think our attitude to drink is particularly immature in that we think that binge drinking (don't get me wrong i am not preaching as I have done the sessions) is ok and not something to be discouraged. Some one told me recently that they were not an alcoholic because they only drank in pubs and not at home. There logic was there kids never saw them drinking but did see them roll home pissed. The fact that they skulled 10 pints during each pub visit was lost on them.
Anyway hope this is not considered off topic.
Shanna
Quote from: Dunkel on September 25, 2013, 08:17:49 PM
Quote from: brenmurph on September 25, 2013, 05:56:07 PM
500ml of 4.3% beer is 21.5gram alc
500ml of 5% beer is 25 gram alc
its a percentage
Would it not be a proportion of the alcohol by weight? So a 500ml bottle of 5.0% abv would work out about 20 grams alcohol (abw = approx. 0.8 x abv)?
WE SHOULD DEFINE THIS if we can in a simple way, are we talking about a kg of wort of 1060 gravity weighing 1.060kg? Isnt a ml of water the same as a gram of water and the density of wort or finished beer is slightly heavier if it finishes at 1.010 and therefore causes difficulty in calculating alcohol content? Is weight of finished beer not very similar to water + / - 5% because not many beers finish at 1.020?
someone please clarify in laymans terms for everyones benefit.
Shanna, heavy stuff and no simple answer.
There is an alcohol problem bus as per previous post it hails into insignificance when we consider in comparison to other health issues driven by sugar. Diabetes, heart disease and mental and emotional imbalances driven by shit food and a 50% sugar nutrient deficient diets in many cases.
Alcohol ( or beer) is as common as the white sliced pan and its a small minority that makes the headlines re alcohol harm. Yes alcohol harm is an issue but in context of overall drink consumption the vast majority of people dont smash up shop windows and beat up their wives after a couple of pints.
Not an easy debate but worth debating... so roll it on, thats what this thread is about
I think that this conversation needs some facts from credible sources like the NHS, the CDC, Alcohol Ireland, the World Health Organization, WebMD, ignoring guesswork and opinion about mentality, social standing, poor wartime diets, etc
Alcohol increases the risk of developing more than 60 diseases and medical conditions, even at low levels of consumptionsource (http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/health-and-alcohol/)
It results in 2.5 million deaths each year. Alcohol is the world's third largest risk factor for premature mortality, disability and loss of health; it is the leading risk factor in the Western Pacific and the Americas and the second largest in Europe. source (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/)
Youth who use alcohol before age 15 are five times more likely to become alcohol dependent than adults who begin drinking at age 21source (http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/faqs.htm#young)
Different drinks are not less harmful based on their alcohol concentration, just the amount of alcohol you consume.
A longneck bottle of beer, glass of wine or shot of spirits will all have about the same amount of alcohol and they'll all have pretty much the same afect on your body (ignoring other ingredients) source (http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/faqs.htm)
The recommended daily limit for men is about a pint of 5%-6% ABV beer source (http://www.nhs.uk/change4life/Pages/alcohol-lower-risk-guidelines-units.aspx)
Alcohol is processed in the body very similarly to the way fat is processed, and alcohol provides almost as many calories source (http://diabetes.webmd.com/drinking-alcohol)
Moderate amounts of alcohol makes your blood sugars rise. The carbohydrate content in beer and sweet wine will also raise blood sugars. Alcohol can also raise blood pressure and triglyceride levels. source (http://diabetes.webmd.com/drinking-alcohol).
But light beers can contain as little as half the calories and a quarter the carbohydtares (based on Coors light vs heineken or bud) while moving to light cider can reduce your calorie intake to about 75% and the carbohydrate intake to about 17% (based on bulmers vs bulmers light) source (http://andykennyfitness.ie/sugar-calories-in-beer-stout-cider/)
I've no doubt that there are plenty of good things in beer, but a healthy diet of varied and fresh food will provide them more effectively.
I can't guarantee all the sources are 100% correct, however it seems like a more solid basis than opinion and guesswork
Throwaway nonchalant comments like 'Moderate drinking could be 5 litres a day, who knows', claims that unfiltered ale is 'a superfood' and advice like 'introduce kids early' aren't just outrageous but downright misleading and dangerous, especially coming from a certified nutritionist.
I think calling the opinion of a qualified nutritionist guesswork is downright insulting myself.
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Quote from: Eoin on September 26, 2013, 04:41:30 AM
I think calling the opinion of a qualified nutritionist guesswork is downright insulting myself.
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I dont think thats what LoreEoin did. He was referring to the thread in general and references to socioeconomic and other factors that make if virtually impossible to draw rock solid conclusions from the historical evidence that we have.
I've heard Patrick Holford speaking out against alcohol before and hes a well published nutritionist.
@Bren which athletes are we talking about here?
'BTW theres a ton of evidence that low alc 3% beer is now favoured by athletes and works better than water, sports drinks, milk, and home made sports drinks'
I find it hard to believe that any serious athlete would drink beer any more than rarely or use it as a nutritional supplement. I would be more inclined to believe that theyd be complete tea totallers.(I only know 1 successful pro athlete personally and he doesnt drink).
I think theres a lot of sense in LordEoins post
@ lordeoin
Carefull please, it has been taken out of context completely, there are two sides to the alcohol story, the side that gives beer / alcohol bad press and plenty of it and the truth.
This thread is to get a feel for myths and misconceptions and opinions and knowledge without firing abuse at anyone. The thread didnt start with alcohol abuse it started with us discussing how beer is healthy in moderation and no it seems that beer is causing everybodys ills mental and physical.
In addition this is our homebrew forum where we can all say what we like and discuss whjat we like, I am not a registered nutritionist, there is no such thing as one, I am not giving professional professional advice, just like everyong else on the forum I am discussing aspects of beer and brewing which is what this forum is about and having debate and banter with others.
And yes your references are biased, non primary and poor quality from the web in many cases. Im working all day so ye all can continue as ye see fit.
@ LordEoin, in particular, but really also interested parties, here's a copy of the literature review essay I did on the health and nutrition related aspects of moderate beer consumption as part of my MSc course work.
It has a lot of sources for the claims Brenmurph and I were making. The U-shaped curve relating alcohol consumption to total mortality and CRD in particular has been replicated by study after study. I only reference about five such studies in this document, but it seems incontrovertible.
Quote from: brenmurph on September 26, 2013, 12:14:56 AM
Quote from: Dunkel on September 25, 2013, 08:17:49 PM
Quote from: brenmurph on September 25, 2013, 05:56:07 PM
500ml of 4.3% beer is 21.5gram alc
500ml of 5% beer is 25 gram alc
its a percentage
Would it not be a proportion of the alcohol by weight? So a 500ml bottle of 5.0% abv would work out about 20 grams alcohol (abw = approx. 0.8 x abv)?
WE SHOULD DEFINE THIS if we can in a simple way, are we talking about a kg of wort of 1060 gravity weighing 1.060kg? Isnt a ml of water the same as a gram of water and the density of wort or finished beer is slightly heavier if it finishes at 1.010 and therefore causes difficulty in calculating alcohol content? Is weight of finished beer not very similar to water + / - 5% because not many beers finish at 1.020?
someone please clarify in laymans terms for everyones benefit.
Dunkel was spot on. The density of ethanol is 0.789kg/m3 or g/ml. So 10ml of alcohol weighs only 7.89g and 10g of alcohol takes up 12.67ml.
Ever noticed that alcohol unit information on UK and Irish bottles is different? That is because a UK unit is 10ml of alcohol and an Irish unit is 10g. 500ml of 5% beer is 25ml alcohol or 2.5 UK units but only 2 Irish units.
42g/day would be 53.2ml, that is, 4 Irish units or 5.3 UK units.
I don't really follow what you're trying to say about wort and beer gravity. A litre of wort of specific gravity 1.060 weighs approximately 1.06kg. This is merely approximate because the density of H2O is actually 0.9982, not 1.000. Specific gravity is the ratio of the density of the substance in g/ml or kg/m3 divided by the density of water. So the SG of water is by definition 1.000. This means the density of wort of SG 1.06 is actually 1.058, so a litre of that wort will weigh 1.058kg.
As you say when wort sugars are converted to alcohol this affects the measurement of alcohol concentration. The official procedure for determining ethanol concentration is distillation. The method of subtracting final gravity from original gravity is an empirical correlation and is only approximate. The formula is (OG minus FG) multiplied by a factor that depends on the size of the gravity drop. There is a table of factors in section 30.3 of this HMRC document. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcustoms.hmrc.gov.uk%2FchannelsPortalWebApp%2FdownloadFile%3FcontentID%3DHMCE_CL_000232&ei=mvtDUsvDLISt7QbX4YDYAg&usg=AFQjCNHBjX2dYyxdcJiQDDYMXXDOUQosMg&sig2=r8H-4jcS_U2id2VRAd3gNg&bvm=bv.53217764,d.ZGU
@ andrew - Fantastic. Finally something constructive (your essay), thank you Andrew.
You'll notice that i did not dispute the U curve at any point in my post
Handy definition of moderate beer consumption in there
(10‐12g/day for women and 20‐24g/day for men)
That pretty much lines up with the one pint of 5-6% ABV beer per day limit for men.
@ brenmurph -
I don't think I fired any abuse.
Of course my references are biased, so are yours. They may be pulled from the web, but at least they're mostly from reputable organisations. Many of the sources linked also provide links to the actual studies and reports.
Andrew's essay supports many of the references I provided (i guess there's some value in my references that 'are biased, non primary and poor quality from the web')
Just like everyong else on the forum I am discussing aspects of beer and brewing which is what this forum is about and having debate and banter with others.
I stand behind my point (although slightly modified)
Throwaway nonchalant comments like 'Moderate drinking could be 5 litres a day, who knows', claims that unfiltered ale is 'a superfood' and advice like 'introduce kids early' aren't just outrageous but downright misleading and dangerous, especially coming from a certified nutritionist.
As regards how to introduce alcohol to children I had a hearty debate along time ago with my extended family about this. I allowed my 2 children to taste any drink I had and when my son was 11 he became aware of the image of stout. So I told him that he and I could have draft cans of stout and watch a film. As I expected he poured his can and drank the first 2 mouthfuls and as the bitter flavor took hold he reverted to the box of chocolates. I never teased him and let it pass but I know he formed his views and was able to conclude what he liked. I believe why we have a bad habit at a young age to drink is because we tell children that this is only for when you are an adult and children aspire to be adult.
Little brother is turning 18 soon enough, looking forward to educating him on the ways of craft beer.
What a great debate! Personally I take alot of what so called experts say with a pinch of salt. Today something's are bad, tomorrow there ok. You never know with the change of times.
I think moderation is the best. For me I'll always have a few drinks. I know when I near my limit and I'd hate to get to a point where I could get addicted( knowing that I have about 100l in my fridges ???)
If people could enjoy beer with out thinking for the need to get pissed then there would be less issues surrounding alcohol.
I think and practice by teaching my kids about the beers I brew and of the effects of too much consumption. I'd rather have my eldest have too much at home than too much were I can't see her. Needless she as very little. Since to restrict young ones on anything only breeds desire.
Other things in life are more threatening as well. It's just about balance. I don't give a s@€t what the WHO say!
homebrew is better
Quote from: Dodge on September 26, 2013, 11:44:02 PMI don't give a s@€t what the WHO say!
But, but, they had a few good songs.
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Don't Bayern Munich use Paulaner non alcoholic as an isotonic sports drink?
Just reading some material sent to me by brenmurph, and loved this quote -
"If malt is the soul of the beer then hops are the spice," says Professor Charles Bamforth, Professor of Brewing Sciences at the University of California. "The hop is an ancient plant, said to aid digestion, ease constipation, overcome premature ejaculation and soothe anxieties."
That's me sorted then ;)
Quote from: Dunkel on September 30, 2013, 12:46:05 PM
Don't Bayern Munich use Paulaner non alcoholic as an isotonic sports drink?
Yep, Erdinger Ireland give out their non-alcoholic stuff at the end of races they sponsor as well.