Hello all,
I've started my first home brew yesterday but am already thinking ahead to the bottling stage.
I have Coopers Carbonation Drops and 48 Coopers ox bar bottles.
I also have a capper, caps and empty glass 330ml and 500ml bottles.
When its time to bottle I would like to try bottling with both bottles.
Firstly, I would like to re-use the old glass bottles but whats the best thing to do to get them clean and sterilised? I found http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp) and i reckon that'll be a good choice for sterilising them but alas those guys are out of stock of chemipro oxy - any other suggestions?
Lastly, have you guys any suggestions of how to get the glass bottles clean before i sterilise them?
1. Soak bottles in a warm solution of oxy or wvp and flush out with cold water when done
Or
2. Run the glasd bottles through a cycle in the dish washer
Either way when done give them a squirt of star San.
Shanna
@fishjam, the bottle rinser is a must for bottling but won't clean off engrained dirt. It'll only spray sanitiser. You'll only ever have to thoroughly clean bottles once, then rinse after use and use rinser with sanitiser fluid on bottling day
Quote from: Shanna on November 12, 2013, 08:43:36 PM
1. Soak bottles in a warm solution of oxy or wvp and flush out with cold water when done
Or
2. Run the glasd bottles through a cycle in the dish washer
Either way when done give them a squirt of star San.
Shanna
So to clean them, not sanitise you reckon popping them in the dishwasher?
Quote from: RichC on November 12, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
You'll only ever have to thoroughly clean bottles once
What do you do to clean your bottles?
The dishwasher will kill the head on your beer. Rinse aid kills the head.
Sent from my HTC One
I clean my bottles after I use them, run them through the dishwater - with water only - at 70 degrees C and then spray them all with starsan from a spray bottle.
Mind, at the moment I'm just kegging everything!
you would only need to use vwp/oxy if there is visable grime in the bottle otherwise you should be ok giving them a rinse with water and then your sanatiser of choice just before bottling
when i have a bottle im goin to reuse i just rinse it out after pouring (important with bottle conditioned beer before the yeast dries in) then leave it in the press untill i need it
sort of agree.
Need to differentiate between cleaning and sanitising. Our routine:
When we drink a bottle we rinse well and put in dishwasher, allow dry and store the right way up in crated with some newspaper on top to stop spiders / flies going in.
If bottles are second hand and dirty.
Hot W5 oxy action from lidl, soak overnight to be sure and bottles shjould be delabled ( but not some bottles like porterhouse) and spotless. Rinse the oxyaction out and follow dishwasher protocol above
Thanks guys, off to Lidl I go so!!!
Wear rubber gloves when handling oxyaction. You wont get any effects untill a couple of days when your skin will be iirritated and cracked. So about 1 scoop in a gallon of warm/ hot water ( not cold) should do if soaking overnight. Solution depends on hot water for best performance...keep away from kids and all that ;) :)
Just to be clear:
Its Lidl W5 Oxy Power in the purple tub!
Don't get the perfumed pink expensive stuff!
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 12, 2013, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: RichC on November 12, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
You'll only ever have to thoroughly clean bottles once
What do you do to clean your bottles?
Before the first time I user them, I soak them in water & PBW and get a bottle brush at them and peel off the labels and rinse them. Then I just sanitise them with a bottle rinser and starsan on bottling day.
When I drink one of my beers I just rinse bottle under the tap and its ready for reuse. Just need to rinse enough to remove the yeast cake(most of which goes down my neck anyway).
Quote from: Will_D on November 13, 2013, 10:37:08 AM
Just to be clear:
Its Lidl W5 Oxy Power in the purple tub!
Don't get the perfumed pink expensive stuff!
Out to the shed to clean a carboy and mine was stolen!
"Oh yeah I borrowed it to clean crud from a glass vase, its great stuff":o
Cool, I have some 33cl Heineken bottles, will soak them in the W5 mix, whack em through the dishwasher with no detergent. Then in bottling day I'll give them a quick rinse in the bottle rinser.
Thanks for all the advice!!!
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 11:27:14 AM
Cool, I have some 33cl Heineken bottles, will soak them in the W5 mix, whack em through the dishwasher with no detergent. Then in bottling day I'll give them a quick rinse in the bottle rinser.
Thanks for all the advice!!!
If using Heineken bottles ensure you store them in the dark or you'll get fart smells from your beers.
Sent from my HTC One
Whys that?
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 11:31:51 AM
Whys that?
UV light gets through green glass and breaks down hop oils, a phenomenon that the yanks call "skunking". Bottles of Heineken taste different to kegs, same reason. Brown bottles are better as they block UV.
Sent from my HTC One
Oh! Well I'll chuck the green ones and get my hands on some brown bottles so
Thanks again!!!!
A local pub will be happy to give away empty brown bottles if you're short.
I've also heard that 500ml bottles are better than 330ml for homebrew (they certainly save time).
Quote from: irish_goat on November 13, 2013, 11:36:22 AM
I've also heard that 500ml bottles are better than 330ml for homebrew (they certainly save time).
And it's highly unlikely the extra few ml's will go to waste in my house haha
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 11:36:05 AM
Oh! Well I'll chuck the green ones and get my hands on some brown bottles so
Thanks again!!!!
Ive been using green bottles for years without a problem. I dont doubt that they allow skunking but I dont store my beer in direct sunlight so its never been a problem. My green ones are all budvar and I dont think that suffers form skunking. I also have some Inis and Gunn clear bottles that I use just so I can admire my beer(and check clarity) without cracking the lid
I think the threat of skunking is overhyped in my opinion.
Maybe someone can row in on the science of this but if I cant get a tan through my living room window(clear glass) how can my beer be effected? The clear glass obviously provides some level of filtration.
Theres plenty of green and clear beer bottles on the shelves in the supermarket and I cant say ive ever tasted(noticed?) a skunked beer.
As I said, I dont doubt that skunking occurs, i just think its overhyped.......maybe a bit like HSA on a homebrew scale....
Quote from: RichC on November 13, 2013, 02:32:54 PM
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 11:36:05 AM
Oh! Well I'll chuck the green ones and get my hands on some brown bottles so
Thanks again!!!!
Ive been using green bottles for years without a problem. I dont doubt that they allow skunking but I dont store my beer in direct sunlight so its never been a problem. My green ones are all budvar and I dont think that suffers form skunking. I also have some Inis and Gunn clear bottles that I use just so I can admire my beer(and check clarity) without cracking the lid
I think the threat of skunking is overhyped in my opinion.
Maybe someone can row in on the science of this but if I cant get a tan through my living room window(clear glass) how can my beer be effected? The clear glass obviously provides some level of filtration.
Theres plenty of green and clear beer bottles on the shelves in the supermarket and I cant say ive ever tasted(noticed?) a skunked beer.
As I said, I dont doubt that skunking occurs, i just think its overhyped.......maybe a bit like HSA on a homebrew scale....
Skunking is very real. As a test, take a can of Stella and a bottle of Stella side by side. First test open the can and take a whiff. Do the same with the bottle, smell the difference. That mild fart smell from the bottle is skunking.
I suggest your pallet ignores it or you're not bothered.
Now, my experience, having been a country barman in my youth is that a lot of people enjoy mild skunking, as evidenced by the amount of punters who always chose a small green bottle of Heineken over a pint because they reckoned it tasted better.
That's not ignoring the fact that it's technically a flaw and unwanted in most styles with Mexican beers being the notable exception.
Its not UV or direct sunlight that does it, it is light in general.
The fact that this does not massively effect standard supermarket beers may have a lot more to do with:
- tiny amount of hops that they use
- the fact that the beers are stored in boxes in the storeroom until stacked
- that they turnover on shop shelves quickly
I often bottle in to clear swingtops too, as early samplers. But the bottles get stored in a dark cupboard that is opened rarely, and drank young.
Bottle an IPA into clear/green glass as an experiment and see what happens.
Light flash affects home brewers a lot, because we hop more, and our beers are stored for longer, sometimes in non-optimal locations.
I've had light strike in bottles that came straight out of a sealed cardboard box, Stella in green bottles, suggesting to me that very short periods in factories under strip lights is enough to cause it. From what I've read it's caused by UV which is present in most white light to some extent.
A chemistry explanation..
http://mv.picse.net/fermentation/hops/light-strike-in-beer/
Sent from my HTC One
Quote from: RichC on November 13, 2013, 02:32:54 PM
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 11:36:05 AM
Oh! Well I'll chuck the green ones and get my hands on some brown bottles so
Thanks again!!!!
Ive been using green bottles for years without a problem. I dont doubt that they allow skunking but I dont store my beer in direct sunlight so its never been a problem. My green ones are all budvar and I dont think that suffers form skunking. I also have some Inis and Gunn clear bottles that I use just so I can admire my beer(and check clarity) without cracking the lid
I think the threat of skunking is overhyped in my opinion.
Maybe someone can row in on the science of this but if I cant get a tan through my living room window(clear glass) how can my beer be effected? The clear glass obviously provides some level of filtration.
Theres plenty of green and clear beer bottles on the shelves in the supermarket and I cant say ive ever tasted(noticed?) a skunked beer.
As I said, I dont doubt that skunking occurs, i just think its overhyped.......maybe a bit like HSA on a homebrew scale....
Here is a blog with some scientific stuff explained http://theblog-o-beer.blogspot.ie/2009/03/skunked-or-light-struck-beer.html
Corona is skunked and marketed that you consume it with a slice of lime http://www.livescience.com/33718-beer-skunks.html
Miller uses pre isomerised hop extract in their beer which is supposedly unaffected by uv light and does not get skunked even though it is packaged in clear bottles
Wow!
Cheers for all the replies, great to see such a knowledge base of guys on here.
I got VWP with my kit when I bought it, is VWP classed a no rinse steriliser? Will i be able to rinse my cleaned bottles on bottling day in the bottle rinser, leave 'em to dry then bottle away?
VWP is not no-rinse as it is chlorine based. You can rinse with running tap water after VWP, but whatever you do it needs to be removed.
Sent from my HTC One
VWP is a cleaner rather than a sanitiser, it's deadly for cleaning dried crud off barrels with simple soaking.
A simple beginners no-rinse solution is as follows.
20l of water
30 ml White vinegar
30 ml thin unscented household bleach
The Lidl thin bleach is good.
Add the bleach to the water then add the vinegar to the mixture. Never mix neat bleach and vinegar this will release chlorine and that can kill. Always add to the water and mix there one at a time.
This is no-rinse as the bleach is below taste threshold due to its dilution but is an excellent killer as you have lowered the pH with the addition of acidic vinegar.
30 seconds contact and it's no-rinse, I would drip it out on a bottle tree.
Use VWP to clean and that solution to sanitise. Or some of the guys on here have similar cheap solutions, such as hydrogen peroxide diluted, or what I use personally Star San.
Sent from my HTC One
Is this the correct W5 before I use it and make a balls of it all ???
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 09:47:31 PM
Is this the correct W5 before I use it and make a balls of it all ???
That's the right one. Don't panic, lots of information in this thread, maybe looks a bit intimidating. You'll be fine.
Sent from my HTC One
Cheers Eoin - yes lots of information but I condensed it all together and made a little .pdf file of how to clean and santise the bottles correctly. I'll probably only use it the once and remember how to do it from then on but at least I'm doing it properly and learning a lot as I go along.
If somethings worth doing, its worth doing properly!
Thanks again guys.
Just a quick one Eoin, I'm buying one of these guys tonite - http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp)
I'd probable only need maximum a litre to do a load of bottles so do I just divide your solution down from 20 litres to 1 litre? No hidden equations to do?
If 20 litres of Water becomes 1 litre
30 mls of Thins Bleach becomes ... ?
30 mls white vinegar becomes ... ?
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 13, 2013, 10:25:42 PM
Just a quick one Eoin, I'm buying one of these guys tonite - http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp (http://www.homebrewwest.ie/brewsmarter-mini-bottle-rinser--sterilizer-fits-coopers-oxbars-2937-p.asp)
I'd probable only need maximum a litre to do a load of bottles so do I just divide your solution down from 20 litres to 1 litre? No hidden equations to do?
If 20 litres of Water becomes 1 litre
30 mls of Thins Bleach becomes ... ?
30 mls white vinegar becomes ... ?
It's direct ratios. Personally I'd not go lower than 5l because it gets too tight without pipettes etc for accuracy.
Sent from my HTC One
Excellent, thanks
I'll go no lower than 5ltrs so.
Now to get some thin bleach and white vinegar in tesco, presume plain old clear vinegar is ok?
Yep, plain white vinegar.
Sent from my HTC One
Quote from: fishjam45 on November 14, 2013, 09:43:45 AM
Excellent, thanks
I'll go no lower than 5ltrs so.
Now to get some thin bleach and white vinegar in tesco, presume plain old clear vinegar is ok?
nothin fancy like cider/wine vinegars etc.. Just plain old distilled malt vinegar. And if you want to be anal about it the correct quantites are(direct from Charley Talley) 5 US Gallons of water, 1Oz Vinegar, 1Oz thin bleach
the oxy action is 100% biodegradable in a short time, it does leave a fine white film of sodium carbonate which is harmless and will rinse off the next wash / rinse. so from a food safe point of view oxyaction does not have to be rinsed, its more asthetic reasons for rinsing. Other option is to pick up some starsan or h2o2. Ask at your next homebrew meeting about all things sanitation as well.
good that you are following the good advice as I feel its an area where homebrewers fall down.
wash everything till spotlessly clean especially around taps, lids and so on. if you have a normal fermenter bin with lid use the hot oxy and when the pressure buildup is over ( which happens) you can leave the fermenter upside down with the lid on, this will clean / sanitise all the crevices around the lid area. Small bits and pieces just leave them soaking oxy when warm, about 15 mins everything will dissolve.
Again with the oxy in the pic from lidl, use rubber gloves and rinse well if you get it on skin or eyes, kits not hazardous but irritant and keep dry powder and wet mixes well away from kits, they may be attracted to the bubbles and foam it produces :)
Quote from: Eoin on November 13, 2013, 09:38:02 PM
20l of water
30 ml White vinegar
30 ml thin unscented household bleach
+1
As far as i remember, it'll sanitize in 12 about 12 seconds.
I wouldn't recommend the dishwasher for PET bottles, it can warp them.
Cheers, I'll only put the glass into a high temp wash in the dishwasher.
I'll soak the PET Bottles in the w5 solution and only give them a low temp rinse in the dishwasher.
Thanks again!!!
great but make sure the rinse follows immediatly from the intensive wash so your dishwasher is sterile!
Or use a no rinse spray is perfect too bleach/ vinegar, starsan, or h2o2 all work well
Just cleaning and sterilising my bottles for beer to be beer gunned in tomorrow.
What a complete pain in the arse bottling is :(
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/16/davy9avy.jpg)
i don't mind it so long as the bottles were properly washed after use.
40 bottles only takes about 15 minutes to sterilize in dozen batches.
wats wrong with ya CH... our bottling sessions here in Kildare atre therapy sessions,
we fill some.....and empty some at the same time :) ;)
Quote from: LordEoin on February 15, 2014, 10:10:46 PM
i don't mind it so long as the bottles were properly washed after use.
40 bottles only takes about 15 minutes to sterilize in dozen batches.
Vinator and bottling tree cuts about 10mins off that
Sent from my XT890 using Tapatalk
I'm with CH on this one - complete pain the hole buts gotta be done.
Quote from: RichC on February 16, 2014, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: LordEoin on February 15, 2014, 10:10:46 PM
i don't mind it so long as the bottles were properly washed after use.
40 bottles only takes about 15 minutes to sterilize in dozen batches.
Vinator and bottling tree cuts about 10mins off that
Sent from my XT890 using Tapatalk
I have both of those and its still a pain in the hole, and although I hadn't done it in 12 months (last years comp) I was starting to find it strangely therapeutic this afternoon.
OK, I'm probably a bit strange, but I really enjoy the feeling when the bottling is done. 23l takes about 2 or 2.5 hours; I set an evening aside, stick my favourite music on the cd player, have a few beers, take my time and dance around at the same time (I'm a lovely mover ;) ) et voila! 40+ bottles of beer, neatly labelled (well, not really, just a coloured dot to tell me what it is), and all in crates ready to go into the living room (right temp) for a couple of weeks. Thence to the nether realms for coldish conditioning.
And I hereby claim the title for the longest sentence in a HBC forum comment :)
Alright there Peggy Spencer ;D
I am going to be bottling my brew tonight I hope. The only steriliser I have at the moment is Milton. I used it last time I did one and didn't find it left a taste. However, it did involve sterilising them and then rinsing the bottles thoroughly. Since reading the comments in this section though, I am now concerned about using it for this brew as this is my first partial extract brew and I really want it to go well.
I think it will be ok if I like, fill a bucket and plonk the bottles in with the Milton and let them sit for 30 mins and then individually rinse each bottle under warm water and allow to dry? I don't have time to wait for a delivery of star san or anything like that at this point now, should have thought of it when ordering but didn't realise I was out.
Quote from: Pliskin on April 30, 2014, 10:45:15 AM
I think it will be ok if I like, fill a bucket and plonk the bottles in with the Milton and let them sit for 30 mins and then individually rinse each bottle under warm water and allow to dry?
Don't use warm water from the tap!
Just rinse under the kitchen tap.
Drain them, let them stand upright for 5 mins covered with a bit of foil or the crown caps (these also can be miltoned then rinsed in cold water).
Then just before filling drain out the last of the water. The bottles don't need to be totally dry.
I used Milton for a year when I started brewing with no difficulties. Soaked in Milton for 10mins then rinsed with tap water and drained well.
I'm bottling today too. Not hugely looking forward to it but I cleaned out most of my bottles yesterday so just a quick sanitise and they should be ready to go.
Needed a few extra bottles though and getting the labels off Irish bottles is horrendous. Especially White Gypsy, they have lovely big bottles but its so much work getting the label off.
Thanks guys! I shall do that then. Soak in Milton and then rinse with tap water :) Nice one!
I wouldn't be bothered taking the labels off some of the bottles haha, the caps are different enough to tell the difference. Some come off easy so that's fine, but for the other ones (like White Gypsy) I wouldn't be arsed haha. I have most 330ml used for this one, as it's a 7% brew. Didn't really want 500ml bottles, even though I have heard they can be better for Home Brews.
I don't think bottle size makes a big difference (though I'm a novice so could be completely wrong) think 500ml is just convenient for people. I've got 1L, 750ml, 500ml and 330s for my beer today.
I have a ritual of a 5 stage clean
1. Go to bottle bank and get a mixture of 330 and 500ml bottle. (Never Tyske bottles, The youngs bottle capper breaks the top of them)
Take them home and fill them all with a hose water blasting the crap out of them. Let sit for a day.
2. Into the dishwasher after shaking all the hose water out . Open the dishwasher 3/4 way through the cycle into the steamy bit. All the labels fall off in your hand. then finish the cycle.
3. A wash in fairy and a bottle brushing in hot water to be sure the inside is clean and no odour exists.
4. A dip in 30ml of thin bleach , 20ml of vinegar mixed with 20l of water in a bucket .
5. Final rinse in cold water to get the smell of bleach away, and bottle the beer within an hour.
I only do one stage a day except for 3 & 4. I use the grocery home delivery creates as one will hold 40 pints of bottles and so they can be done in batches.
Bit OTT but.
I end up with perfectly clean bottles that I am happy to share with friends with no fear of infection.
I always rinse my bottles right after drinking them so no gunk builds up. If friends give me bottles I was them out properly immediately. Then for bottling yesterday I put all the non-swing tops in the dishwasher (I'm afraid the swing tops will rust or lose their rubber ring in the DW). So now I just need to wash and rinse the swing tops. Then to sanitise I have a squirty bottle full of star san so I'm gonna squirt each once and leave them to rinse off then. Then I'll bottle.
I'm buying a load of equipment soon to move from kit to all grain so I think I'll throw in a bottle tree and rinser to my order then to make life easier.
Id u have a burco boiler heat to about 65 c and you can use either good quality dishwasher tabs or oxy power from lidl,
Both extremely effective.
Rinse and sanitise with starsan solution.
If using old bottles from wherever look for signs of stubborn marks inside. A decent bottle brush that actually hits the sides AND Bottom of the bottles helps initially.
There are so many bottles around I dont keep any bottles that arnt spotlessly clean after the oxy action.
that way u collect the best and lowest risk bottles.
Great way to build collection is ask ur mates to save all beer type bottles and as soon as they drink them, rinse well and keep for you. U must collect them asap as mould will form in damp and wet environment. that way u get fresh clean bottles with little work needed and low risk of those stubborn moiuld spores that can come from nowhere
Just finished. Wasn't too bad at all. Would have been a lot easier if my 10 week old beagle pup wasn't trying to pull all my towels away though.
For me the top tip is don't use bottles that have been stored outside as dirt & mildew builds up on the inside of bottles and it is incredibly difficult to shift. I have had bottles I got that were stored outside that still have dirt inside them despite being soaked in oxy, being put through the dish washer and even resisted the use of a bottle brush.
Shanna
I wait til they're dry, then press used crown-caps onto them to keep all the nasties out.
Seems to work well. Only the outside gets dirty.
Quote from: Shanna on April 30, 2014, 09:46:38 PM
For me the top tip is don't use bottles that have been stored outside as dirt & mildew builds up on the inside of bottles and it is incredibly difficult to shift. I have had bottles I got that were stored outside that still have dirt inside them despite being soaked in oxy, being put through the dish washer and even resisted the use of a bottle brush.
Shanna
Sorry about that :-D
Quote from: Eoin on April 30, 2014, 10:39:25 PM
Quote from: Shanna on April 30, 2014, 09:46:38 PM
For me the top tip is don't use bottles that have been stored outside as dirt & mildew builds up on the inside of bottles and it is incredibly difficult to shift. I have had bottles I got that were stored outside that still have dirt inside them despite being soaked in oxy, being put through the dish washer and even resisted the use of a bottle brush.
Shanna
Sorry about that :-D
Nothing to be sorry about.
Shanna