Hi Folks, after 2 years of fellas tellin me Im mad not to use Whirlfloc, I did last night on my third winter alt, this time a spices altbier.
Fantastic stuff that whirlfloc how all the stuff settles right dowm....OK Problem is
I have a 30 litre batch with 9 litres of trub what am I to do. I cant dump 9 litres. I removed 3 litres from the conical last night an hour after the boil and blast chill. This was put in a couple of jugs, this mornin the stuff in the jugs has settlet and there is an inch of very clear wort and 6 inches of trub so im presuming it wont settle further. My conical has over 6 ( corrected forgot to deduct the other 3) litres of trub sitting in it thats after I removed 3 already.
any suggestions please?
How much whirlfloc did you use? For 30l of normal gravity beer you should be using about 0.9g of the stuff. The package suggests much higher dosage rates, the issue with this is excessive trub, the same can happen in the fermenter also. Get a precision scales and measure it next time.
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Thanks Eoin, I presumed as they came from homebrew shop in unmarked container that it is one for a homebrew batch, I discovered most people use about a half, this cant explain 10+ litres of trub though?
I had massive amounts of trub using whirlfloc in a 30 litre batch of lager recently. I actually brewed a 30 litre batch rather than a standard 20 litre batch because I knew I'd get a lot of cold break using the whirlfloc. I was able to siphon most of the beer out being very careful not to suck up too much of the trub. I'd say I lost about 5 litres.
If you use a smaller dose of whirlfloc the trub (mostly protein) will stay in solution. This shouldn't be any problem, especially for an Alt where the colour will be a little darker and it will be lagered for a few weeks.
Quote from: brenmurph on November 13, 2013, 08:01:43 AM
Thanks Eoin, I presumed as they came from homebrew shop in unmarked container that it is one for a homebrew batch, I discovered most people use about a half, this cant explain 10+ litres of trub though?
There are other factors, but yeah it could explain that much trub.
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Was thinking about this the other day. What if you were to siphon off the clear wort and then whack the trub/wort mix into a bucket and put it in the fridge? The chilling would help settle a lot more of the trub and you might get a few more litres out of it. Would it be ok then to add this to the already fermenting primary?
Quote from: irish_goat on November 13, 2013, 08:40:14 AM
Was thinking about this the other day. What if you were to siphon off the clear wort and then whack the trub/wort mix into a bucket and put it in the fridge? The chilling would help settle a lot more of the trub and you might get a few more litres out of it. Would it be ok then to add this to the already fermenting primary?
The gelatine content appears to discourage a tight compaction of the excess trub. It gets fluffy and stays very voluminous.
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Quote from: Eoin on November 13, 2013, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: irish_goat on November 13, 2013, 08:40:14 AM
Was thinking about this the other day. What if you were to siphon off the clear wort and then whack the trub/wort mix into a bucket and put it in the fridge? The chilling would help settle a lot more of the trub and you might get a few more litres out of it. Would it be ok then to add this to the already fermenting primary?
The gelatine content appears to discourage a tight compaction of the excess trub. It gets fluffy and stays very voluminous.
Hmm. Just me having thoughts here but what if I was to use a french press on it?
I suspect that when put under pressure it'll either block the filter, or go straight through it. My voile hop bags manage to pretty much block up with trub when I'm boiling.
Best advice is 30mg per litre of normal gravity beer, up to about 50mg for stronger gravities. Source is Graham Wheeler.
Edited to fix incorrect values.
Ok cheers for that. I'll see what I end up with on the next brewday and maybe give it a go.
Would there be an issue with adding more wort to the fermenter the next day?
No issues with adding wort later.
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I'm just going to throw this out there and see what the collective ingenuity can come up with: you could try centrifuging the 9 litres.
Do be careful of buckets flying off bucket handles though :)
/J
It would work.... But you'd need a Saddam sized centrifuge....
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thanks for all above comments, im still wondering if in general ye homebrewers that use whirlfloc lose circa 5-10 litres to trub?
Im using a conical and after 12 hours now the trub is still 4 litres having already lost 3 litres, at this rate Im losing 30% of my produce, there must be a simple explanation as to how a half a gram of whirlfloc produces 10 litres of denaturised egg white, barley grain does NOT contain that much protein. My nutrition database shows the solid content ( excluding the 10% or less water) of protein is somewhere around 12-15%.
So lets say whirlfloc helps to remove ALL protein in the wort, there is still a loss of 5 litres of beer in my case.
Is thgat the cost of using Whirlfloc? if it is I will not use it again, I can produce clear beers by letting beer mature in cool and my normal post-boil trub for 30 litre batch is about 2 litres tops.
My observation is that the protein flocs around the pieces of agar/seaweed this results in small clouds of trub around the granules, this makes them greater than the sum of their parts and very fluffy, this sponginess takes more wort than is logical due to its spongey nature. Dose it correctly and you won't have this issue, I've already been through this cos I thought more is better, until I had a conversation with Graham Wheeler on jims a few years back. It needs to be high enough to work, but not too high that it creates a fluffy precipitate.
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Calcium also plays a role in the flocculation so it's not purely protein. Gypsum is added to the boil to help precipitation sometimes, it works well with the proteins and the agar.
Do the pros use whirlfloc?
Quote from: irish_goat on November 13, 2013, 10:22:58 AM
Do the pros use whirlfloc?
Most that I can tell, whirlfloc or protofloc granules. I use protofloc myself.
If they don't they risk shelf life issues.
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Quote from: Eoin on November 13, 2013, 10:16:51 AM
My observation is that the protein flocs around the pieces of agar/seaweed this results in small clouds of trub around the granules, this makes them greater than the sum of their parts and very fluffy, this sponginess takes more wort than is logical due to its spongey nature. Dose it correctly and you won't have this issue, I've already been through this cos I thought more is better, until I had a conversation with Graham Wheeler on jims a few years back. It needs to be high enough to work, but not too high that it creates a fluffy precipitate.
just been reading around, discovered kerry foods in cork make this stuff, have the safety sheet now but it says nothing about dosing. Have been observing the usual 10 different answers to this question e.g. half a tab, a whole tab, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes and nbo-one has the answer, is it trial and errror I suppose? I used a whole tablet, I feel again the home brew shop negligent in some ways selling a tub of expensive tablets with no instructions, how hard is it to stick a lable sayin "half per normal homebrew batch ( 5 galls)
From what Im reading Im going to have to drop off another 4 litres and throw it down the sink, thats a 7 litre loss on this occasion of lovely Altbier, next brew ( today) Ill use 1/3 tab and see if theres not a fluffy trub.
so my 30 litres ia now low 20's and ill lose a litre to yeast as well... thats the learning process, I for one am happy to learn by my mistakes. im surprised though that at least 10-15 sensible whirlfloc conversations Ive had with good homebrewers, nobody warned of the importance of getting the dose bang on, or that there are larger losses using this stuff.
will continue to play around
As a BIAB practitioner I'd never get away with not using some product.
Bren, it's possible the less powerful carrigeen(Irish moss) might be better for you if you have no precision scales. The tabs and granules are enhanced somehow over plain Irish moss, but they are primarily sea weed still.
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Do you recognise the name Graham Wheeler? If not then maybe what you're reading from me is not as relevant as it might be. Get a precision scales, go by the recommended 30—50mg per litre, starting at 30 for a normal gravity brew.
I use 1.8g of protofloc granules in my 60l brews.
Edited to correct values.
The manufacturers are actually negligent in their instructions, with us only being homebrewers the losses are not commercial or important.
As a brewery consultant Wheeler knows the numbers.
heres grahme wheelers quote:
"Whirlfloc
Whirlfloc is a similar product to Protafloc. Whirlfloc-T is the product in tablet form. Whirlfloc is used at 20 to 60 milligrams per litre, which is about 1 gram for a 23 litre batch. A standard whirlfloc tablet weighs 2.5 grammes, so half a Whirlfloc tablet is sufficient for 23 litres, and is added ten or fifteen minutes before the end of the boil. "
Quote from: Eoin on November 13, 2013, 10:41:30 AM
Do you recognise the name Graham Wheeler? If not then maybe what you're reading from me is not as relevant as it might be. Get a precision scales, go by the recommended 300—500mg per litre, starting at 300 for a normal gravity brew.
I use 1.8g of protofloc granules in my 60l brews.
I'm confused! Doesn't 300mg = 0.3g? Therefore 60L x 0.3g = 18g. Or am I mixing up my units somewhere?
Edit: Just seen bremurph's post. So it should be 30mg - 50mg per litre :)
think he meant 300-500mg per 5-gall batch?
Sorry my units are wrong. I'll find the post on jims. 30-50mg is correct. 1.8g is my correct dose in any case. Any more causes issues.
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Apologies, have a read with some technical explanation from Wheeler on this subject, his username is Graham.
I was wrong by an order of ten, mea culpa.
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35738&start=30&hilit=Fluffy+trub+losses
Hope that helps Bren. Thing is if shelf life or clarity are not things you value then maybe don't use finings? I always do as I like my clear beers.
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Quote from: brenmurph on November 13, 2013, 10:48:15 AM
heres grahme wheelers quote:
"Whirlfloc
Whirlfloc is a similar product to Protafloc. Whirlfloc-T is the product in tablet form. Whirlfloc is used at 20 to 60 milligrams per litre, which is about 1 gram for a 23 litre batch. A standard whirlfloc tablet weighs 2.5 grammes, so half a Whirlfloc tablet is sufficient for 23 litres, and is added ten or fifteen minutes before the end of the boil. "
Read that whole thread, he expresses it more accurately and explains losses to trub.
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Brenmurph stick with it and follow Eoins advice regarding amounts. I should have mentioned this to you before but I had forgotten that this issue came up a few years back. You can also get Irish Moss in a form of little bits that you spoon out. Whirlfloc and protofloc are all used by commercial brewery's. I saw it being used last Sunday at Bru Brewery. It was sitting in the bucket with the late hops and added with them to the boil.
You should be able to hit the sweet spot with that advice, easy enough.
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I think I might do up an article on this.
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Yes do. It is an issue that needs clarifying as the simple dosage of 1 tablet continually causes this problem to come up. :)
Bren,
Only speaking from my experience with Whirlfloc and 23l batches.
I started by using 1 full tablet and then I used to only use 1/2 whirlfloc tablet but now I'm back to using a full tablet again.
Your right about the clear wort - I used only collect clear wort 2/3 - 4/5 of the wort and check the rest - but my losses was savage.
So now I collect 90% of it - including the brainy stuff. The proteins are coagulated and essentially separated from the wort (but still there) - I have no problem with them going into the fermentor.
The proof is in the pudding and my beer clears perfectly (after a cold conditioning phase).
So in short - the objective is to 'clump' the proteins - but they can go into the fermentor and the yeast can gobble them (or they settle later)- either way - same result - clear beer.
Irish Moss is more organic - have to give that a go.
You don't need to see clumps for it to have worked. If you can see them you're overdosing. My 0.02 cents.
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@ eoin
"Read that whole thread, he expresses it more accurately and explains losses to trub"
will do!
Quote from: Eoin on November 13, 2013, 11:25:36 AM
I think I might do up an article on this.
worthwhile :)
Quote from: DEMPSEY on November 13, 2013, 11:28:40 AM
Yes do. It is an issue that needs clarifying as the simple dosage of 1 tablet continually causes this problem to come up. :)
definatly, we are still on mixed opinions of the most basics....1 tab or half tab......leave gunk in fermenter or whirlpool it out
I think whoever feels they can provide referenced advice from good sources will do well.. there seems to be no orricial info on this product despite it being made by Kerry foods in carrigaline, I wonder would an email get any response?
Bang out an email and see what they say. Should get a response as they do make it.
http://www.personaltraining.ie/Whirlfloc.pdf
I uploaded the safety sheet if anyone wants it
I use dried carrageenan moss that I picked up at the beach and dried out.
No issues.
got the hang of the whirlfloc, using kerry foods whirlfloc g powder, seems way better than tablets, clears instantly shiny clear wort. Needs regydrating before use unlike tablets and need to weigh out exact amount ( couple grams)
Trub now down to a couple litres in 25 litre batch, beer tasting better than ever
Quote from: brenmurph on April 06, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
got the hang of the whirlfloc, using kerry foods whirlfloc g powder, seems way better than tablets, clears instantly shiny clear wort. Needs regydrating before use unlike tablets and need to weigh out exact amount ( couple grams)
Trub now down to a couple litres in 25 litre batch, beer tasting better than ever
Nice one Bren, glad you're convinced now, and on top of it.
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Bren, where did you get the kerry group stuff from?
They seem to have quite a variety of unusually brewing ingredients on their website.
Hi there
My initial observation re excessive trub leads me to conclude that its caused by particles from the hops and the grain. Up until my last brew (SD barley wine) I was getting nearly two inches plus of trub. i adjusted the gap on my gain mill to make the crush course and i put my leaf hops in a cotton hop bag & put that bag inside a paint strainer bag. The stuff that came out of the bags post boil looked remarkably like trub. I had 26 litres of wort & I added 2 whirl floc tablets. I have less than one inch of trub in the fermenter leading to me conclude it is not the whirl floc (in my case) that was the problem but my process.
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on April 08, 2014, 08:15:38 AM
Hi there
My initial observation re excessive trib leads me to conclude that its caused by particles from the hops and the grain. Up until my last brew (SD barley wine) I was getting nearly two inches plus of trub. i adjusted the gap on my gain mill to make the crush course and i put my leaf hops in a cotton hop bag & put that bag inside a paint strainer bag. The stuff that came out of the bags post boil looked remarkably like trub. I had 26 litres of wort & I added 2 whirl floc tablets. I have less than one inch of trub in the fermenter leading to me conclude it is not the whirl floc (in my case) that was the problem but my process.
Shanna
It's possible alright, but the sitution with Whirlfloc is documented and known. Do a side by side, correct dose vs overdose and you'll see it straight off.
Quote from: mr happy on April 06, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
Bren, where did you get the kerry group stuff from?
They seem to have quite a variety of unusually brewing ingredients on their website.
America, I think it was ebay. 17 dollars for 1lb bag and u use a couple grams per brew, I think it works out about 50 times cheaper than buying tablets from homebrew shops and I think its somewhat better, it just seems to drop incredibly clear in minutes and Ive never seen that with tablets.
Next event remind me Ill bring u a few grams to play with.
Its not labeled as Kerry Foods but as Kerry foods seem to have the rights / patent / brand rights I presume its kerry foods
I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?
Quote from: Eoin on April 08, 2014, 08:19:55 AM
Quote from: Shanna on April 08, 2014, 08:15:38 AM
Hi there
My initial observation re excessive trib leads me to conclude that its caused by particles from the hops and the grain. Up until my last brew (SD barley wine) I was getting nearly two inches plus of trub. i adjusted the gap on my gain mill to make the crush course and i put my leaf hops in a cotton hop bag & put that bag inside a paint strainer bag. The stuff that came out of the bags post boil looked remarkably like trub. I had 26 litres of wort & I added 2 whirl floc tablets. I have less than one inch of trub in the fermenter leading to me conclude it is not the whirl floc (in my case) that was the problem but my process.
Shanna
It's possible alright, but the sitution with Whirlfloc is documented and known. Do a side by side, correct dose vs overdose and you'll see it straight off.
Ive played around a lot with my last 50 brews since starting to use whirlfloc,
I discovered that skimming the hot break significantly reduces without affecting the finished beer (7 medals in nationals) so I always skim the hot break especially the brown & black grainy stuff.
pellet hops massively increase trub versus hop cones in a muslin net
Most of the trub thats left is reconsumed by yeast and Im very happy to leave trub in fermenter. the trub is a well- known yeast nutrient, however various sources suggest removing trub by whirlpooling or leaving behind in kettle. I dont believe this is necessary and would love some science that shows the pros and cons.
the pic attached shows the level of trub using 3 grams of pellets in 1 gallon and 0.3gram per gallon whirlfloc g
I skim my hot break as a rule, but then with BIAB it's a sensible thing to do anyway.
I find skimming coming up to the boil reduces the "lift" of the cap which can lead to a boilover, I also find it helps with the final clearing of the beer.
Anyone wants to see the real price of protofloc heres the link.
I have no clue as to why people pay 40cent per tablet.
Also Im amazed no one has done a group buy on it.
I payed 17 dollars for 454 grams and free shipping. Murphy and son have protofloc power for about 10 euros per half KG and 37 sterling for 2kg of it
http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/store/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=8
I have a few years supply of the professional powder that I got in America, if anyone wants to start using it but just wants a small amount let me know Ill pass on a few samples.
Quote from: brenmurph on April 08, 2014, 10:29:41 AM
Anyone wants to see the real price of protofloc heres the link.
I have no clue as to why people pay 40cent per tablet.
Also Im amazed no one has done a group buy on it.
I payed 17 dollars and free shipping. Murphy and son have whirlfloc power for about 10 euros per lb ( half KG) 37 sterling for 2kg of it
http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/store/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=8
I bought one tub of this, probably 6 years ago, I think a 200g pack, I still have some, it's not stuff you'll go through too fast if you dose it properly. That said I'd go in on a group buy to get myself another 300g or so of it as I am getting low.
Quote from: imark on April 08, 2014, 10:11:08 AM
I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?
I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.
Quote from: Eoin on April 08, 2014, 10:47:34 AM
Quote from: imark on April 08, 2014, 10:11:08 AM
I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?
I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.
I guess as you guys are using the powder you're avoiding the bicarbonate of soda that makes up the bulk of the tablet, tight?
The MSDS sheet for whirlfloc g states the shelflife as 2yrs. So it probably becomes less effective over time. Maybe you can address that by increasing the dosage to address it.
http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf (http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf)
Would be interesting to do a split batch with irish moss and whirlfoc. If somebody donates me a baggie of whirlfloc I'll do it. Or I'm happy to donate some irish moss.
Quote from: imark on April 08, 2014, 11:51:27 AM
Quote from: Eoin on April 08, 2014, 10:47:34 AM
Quote from: imark on April 08, 2014, 10:11:08 AM
I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?
I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.
I guess as you guys are using the powder you're avoiding the bicarbonate of soda that makes up the bulk of the tablet, tight?
The MSDS sheet for whirlfloc g states the shelflife as 2yrs. So it probably becomes less effective over time. Maybe you can address that by increasing the dosage to address it.
http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf (http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf)
Would be interesting to do a split batch with irish moss and whirlfoc. If somebody donates me a baggie of whirlfloc I'll do it. Or I'm happy to donate some irish moss.
I can send you on some if you want, it's older but to be honest it's still working fine, it's dry and still in the original box, I can't see how it could be ineffective.
It's only about a gram you'd need on a standard gravity 22l batch.
ye just 1 to 2 gram for homebrew batch so 2 kgs. I make that 3 cent per homebrew batch based on 1.5 grams per batch. Homebrew shops around 40cent per beer batch.
Personally I find it strange that a produce can multiply 125+ times between wholesaler and retailer :o
Murphy & sons sell the tablets as well in buckets, would be simple to do a group buy. Thats what I presume the homebrew shops do, take a bucket of 1000 tabs and put into 10pks and add on 12,500% profit...bit odd to me how this can happen.
As a homebrew club we should deal with these things and maybe ask why the profit markup is so high on stuff like that while the mark up on grain is somewhere between 100 and 150%.
I remember previous times where retailers marked up by maybe 30% across nearly all industry especially the food industry
Quote from: brenmurph on April 08, 2014, 01:11:02 PM
ye just 1 to 2 gram for homebrew batch so 2 kgs. I make that 3 cent per homebrew batch based on 1.5 grams per batch. Homebrew shops around 40cent per beer batch.
Personally I find it strange that a produce can multiply 125+ times between wholesaler and retailer :o
Murphy & sons sell the tablets as well in buckets, would be simple to do a group buy. Thats what I presume the homebrew shops do, take a bucket of 1000 tabs and put into 10pks and add on 12,500% profit...bit odd to me how this can happen.
As a homebrew club we should deal with these things and maybe ask why the profit markup is so high on stuff like that while the mark up on grain is somewhere between 100 and 150%.
I remember previous times where retailers marked up by maybe 30% across nearly all industry especially the food industry
I don't think the tablets are worth getting myself, cos to use them you invariably have to divide them. The guy in the Liverpool organic brewery, if my memory serves me well, was saying he only uses two tablets on his system which is a mutl-barrel system.
powder all the way for me.
I think we use less powder by weight than tablets, I presume there are fillers ( e.g calcium) to form the tablets, im guessing the powder is just ground moss. Making it pound for pound even better value than tablets.
@ mark
Next Lucan meet Ill being u some powder for ya, anyone else let me know. If theres others then ill bring 100g (ref eoin thats 100+ batches / 20 euro at homebrew shop prices :) ) and ye can split it, one of yis can buy me a pint to cover it ;)
Quote from: brenmurph on April 08, 2014, 01:22:06 PM
I think we use less powder by weight than tablets, I presume there are fillers ( e.g calcium) to form the tablets, im guessing the powder is just ground moss. Making it pound for pound even better value than tablets.
@ mark
Next Lucan meet Ill being u some powder for ya, anyone else let me know. If theres others then ill bring 100g (ref eoin thats 100+ batches / 20 euro at homebrew shop prices :) ) and ye can split it, one of yis can buy me a pint to cover it ;)
The powder is listed as being a refined seaweed product so I don't think it's plain moss.
buying the 2kg powder would probably be the way forward alright, but you'd need 20 people to go in on it for it to make sense (100g@ £1.89), then you're stuck with repackaging and distribution, and after all that's done it's hardly worth the effort to save a fiver over a couple of years.
Quote from: LordEoin on April 08, 2014, 02:03:14 PM
buying the 2kg powder would probably be the way forward alright, but you'd need 20 people to go in on it for it to make sense (100g@ £1.89), then you're stuck with repackaging and distribution, and after all that's done it's hardly worth the effort to save a fiver over a couple of years.
good point, for once a month brewers not a lot to benefit, however for 3 times a week brewers like me it makes a difference. It could be easily passed around via our meet ups and so on. t does not need packaging as such, a small plastic ziplock or old medicine tub. the measure can easily be shown on a photo e.g a small amount on the tip of a tspoon for those who dont have micro scales.
Same with Starsan because its generally used in small quantities people say its not worth bulk buying. However its another product thats mega expensive compared to the real cost of say the bulk item. Im quite liberal with sanitising and would prob use a tenner a month on starsan if I were buying it but i dont I use the new product I had formulated in cork and H2O2 that I also got in bulk so my costs are almost zero per month for sanitising as it is for my bulk whirlfloc powder at 2 or 3 cent per brew
medicine tubs are a good idea, airtight and solid.
I'm the same with sanitizer, I like to give everything a good soaking, but bleach/vinegar sorts that cost right out ;)