National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Cathal O D on January 10, 2013, 11:12:52 PM

Title: Head Retention
Post by: Cathal O D on January 10, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
Hi All,

I want to improve the head retention on my beers. I was thinking of using some wheat but not sure how much to use for an IPA. Any suggestions???
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Partridge9 on January 11, 2013, 08:44:33 AM
Use Torrified Wheat

Its a little different than standard wheat - it has been heat 'popped' to allow for rapid hydration and conversion. It adds body and is recommended for head retention.

3-5% should do the trick.

Note low mash temperatures (62-64C) are not good for head retention due to the nature of fermentables produced - if the main mash is at 67-69 your been will have better head retention and fuller body.



Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Cathal O D on January 11, 2013, 11:58:31 AM
I only have flaked wheat. Will that do the trick? :-?
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Partridge9 on January 11, 2013, 12:26:17 PM
Nope not really the same thing ...

I'm sure we can muster up 300/400g of that from somewhere...
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Ciderhead on January 11, 2013, 01:08:11 PM
http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Head_Retention

Biggest one for me what to stop putting my glasses through the dishwasher!!
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: JD on January 11, 2013, 01:49:46 PM
Quote
Quotehttp://brewwiki.com/index.php/Head_Retention

Biggest one for me what to stop putting my glasses through the dishwasher!!
I reckon Palmer wrote that cos half of it is lies!

According to the BrewWiki page history  8-) , for the most part, the page has been authored by two individuals. The first is the guy who wrote the Beersmith software and the second is the guy who created BrewWiki. A couple of others have edited the page thereafter. Palmer hasn't had a hand in it I'm afraid. :o That being said, the two authors may well have been his acolytes, but who's to tell  :-/
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: ColmR on January 11, 2013, 01:53:51 PM
Seriously, is Palmer not to be trusted?
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: JD on January 11, 2013, 02:12:55 PM
I've not had issues with anything he says in his book but I believe others have. I do ignore some things he talks about: the effects of hot side aeration; yeast autolysis and anything to do with mash efficiency. I do perform water chemistry but  use software rather than his charts.

Basically, until such time as I am concerned with any of the above, I will continue to use his book as my goto brewing guide. Thereafter, I'll probably take a course in food science to get the real skinny on what's behind the enzymes and yeastie critters. Till then, I'll just relax and have a homebrew.  ::)

/J
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: JD on January 11, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
Also, if you're researching anything, be it brewing or anything else, don't just use one source. Palmer's book is a reasonable place to start but not always a reasonable place to stop.

Google is your friend in this regard but use it wisely  ;)
/J
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Cathal O D on January 11, 2013, 06:42:08 PM
Im starting my brew tomorrow morning so ill have to skip the wheat this time and focus on the mash temps.

So tell me, what is the flaked wheat for? :-?
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Partridge9 on January 12, 2013, 08:53:25 AM
I believe flaked wheat is pre-gelatinized - like flaked oats. So its added to bump your numbers, add more body and a different flavour - like adding porridge to your wits.
Also from a quick browse around - it would appear to be primarily used in Belgians.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Flaked-Wheat-p3101.htm
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: MAF on January 12, 2013, 11:35:47 PM
Carapils does the job better than any wheat IMO. Or if you just use plenty of any Crystal malt, head retention should be good.
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Tom on January 14, 2013, 12:40:46 PM
If you don't want crystal malt flavours in your beer (and you don't have carapils/caramalt etc.) then mashing higher will give the same unfermentable sugars, I believe.
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: irish_goat on January 14, 2013, 01:00:04 PM
I use about 100g wheat malt per 5 gallon brew. Is there any reason I shouldn't and just stick with crystal/carapils?
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Tom on January 14, 2013, 01:02:24 PM
I think flavour has something to do with that, and mouthfeel. The carapils etc. add dextrins automatically, whereas with wheat you can choose the mash temperatures to suit the sugars you want.

Also, crystal and wheat malts taste different (though not sure how noticeable wheat is in that small quantity).
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: DEMPSEY on January 14, 2013, 01:02:47 PM
Taste on beer apparently,some reckon that the wheat flavour comes through in the finished beer,and if that's what you want,heh. :)
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: irish_goat on January 14, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
Quotenot sure how noticeable wheat is in that small quantity.

That's kind of what I was thinking yeah.
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: biertourist on January 14, 2013, 11:14:18 PM
QuoteI believe flaked wheat is pre-gelatinized - like flaked oats. So its added to bump your numbers, add more body and a different flavour - like adding porridge to your wits.
Also from a quick browse around - it would appear to be primarily used in Belgians.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Flaked-Wheat-p3101.htm

Yep, that's exactly right.  Flaked wheat has been gelatinized and crushed through the flaking process.  It is UNMALTED wheat, though and will add starch so it really must be mashed. -It's not for the extract brewer.

Torrified is very, VERY similar as its also unmalted wheat but it's been gelatinized and it's starch structure exploded from fast cooking ala high heat. -Again also adds starch so use in the mash only.

You'll see these two types of wheat recommended in Belgian Wit beer recipes because you don't have to do a separate cereal mash to gelatinize the wheat separately; old school Wit recipes would have you use raw wheat and then cook it separately up to it's geleatinization temp and then add it back to the main mash for conversion.  -Actually technically, this wouldn't be a "Cereal mash" because there's no enzymes so disregard that term; it's reserved for US brewing with corn in a separate pot where you HAVE added enough super high enzyme base malt (or commercial enzyme) to do the conversion for you.


"Carafoam" is another option if you want to use all malt.

Dry hopping adds more proteins that can aid head retention.

Some yeast strains have a gene that's known to dramatically help head formation & retention, too but I think they're all lager strains.

The real question is why aren't you getting a significant head as it is without these things? -Are you doing a protein rest?  Using all very low protein malt like Marris Otter?  Using glassware that's been cleaned with detergents?  Something introducing oils somewhere in your process? (Regardless many, many American pale ales and IPAs have a small addition of flaked wheat to help head retention because consumers DO overwhelmingly prefer beers with a nice head.


Adam
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: biertourist on January 14, 2013, 11:19:46 PM
QuoteI think flavour has something to do with that, and mouthfeel. The carapils etc. add dextrins automatically, whereas with wheat you can choose the mash temperatures to suit the sugars you want.

Also, crystal and wheat malts taste different (though not sure how noticeable wheat is in that small quantity).

Some new (not even that new any more) studies have pretty much proven that dextrins are actually not responsible for mouthfeel.

Although it's possible that the dextrins later bind to peptides and create substances that ARE responsible for mouth feel... http://brewochemistry.blogspot.com/2011/08/thoughts-on-mash-temperature-limit.html


Adam
Title: Re: Head Retention
Post by: Will_D on January 15, 2013, 11:56:40 AM
Hi Adam

Great to have you on-board. Was really missingy your in-depth technical discussions.

Now about this hopped cider?  Must give it a try!!

A few years ago in Holland I was quaffing an Apple Weissen beer. A light hefe weissen cut through with sharp green apple juice - very delicious and very mooorish